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Who Or What Is Israel?

Koberstein

*Banned*
We can learn about rebirth from Israel's history. They went into Egypt with seventy
individuals, Exodus 1 tells us: "Now these are the names of Bnei-Yisrael who came
into Egypt with Jacob, each man with his family.....The souls that came out of the
line numbered 70 in all, while Joseph was already in Egypt" (vv. 1,5). Consider that
Israel went in as a group of only 70 souls but came out numbering in the millions!

The word for Egypt in Hebrew is Mitzraim, "a place of confinement or restriction."
Mitzraim comes from the root word tzur, which means "rock." In Jewish thought,
Egypt is considered the womb of civilization. The people in Israel was in exile for
about four hundred years. Four hundred is a multiple of forty. And forty weeks is
a full term pregnancy. So, they were in Egypt symbolically as a full term
pregnancy----not weeks but years. Egypt was the womb. The ten plagues brought
on the Egyptians were labor pains, the shaking and quaking. When the Israelites
left Egypt, they went in great haste. (This is one of the reasons we eat matzah,
unleavened bread---they left so quickly that their bread did not have time to rise.)
They were instructed to eat Passover with their loins girded and their staffs in hand.

Pregnancy can seem to be taking forever for expectant parents, and then boom!
The baby comes---often with little warning, in the middle of the night or while we
are fully engaged in something else. We can use the human birth process as an
analogy for the birth of Israel. The parting of the Red Sea was like the woman's
water breaking. Israel going through the Red Sea was like the baby going through
the birth canal. The water closing in on the Egyptian army after Israel had passed
is symbolic of God washing away their past. The old was passing away, and the new
was coming. The water closed, and they could not go back to Egypt. He was birthing
them from an enslaved people into a redeemed free nation.

As Israel could not physically return to Egypt, neither can we physically return to our
mothers' wombs. The people of Israel was born naturally with some divine intervention.
To grow as a nation---the people of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob---twelve tribes had to have
a physical birth. But they were not born supernaturally as a free nation until they escaped
Egypt. And so they had two births. They were naturally birthed through Abraham, Isaac, and
Jacob, and they went to Egypt. God used their time in Egypt to birth them as a redeemed
nation and caused a supernatural multiplication---incredibly, from seventy to millions.
This is what we read in Exodus 1:6-7:
"Then Joseph died, as did all his brothers and all that generation. Yet Bnei-Yisrael were fruitful,
increased abundantly, multiplied and grew extremely numerous---so the land was filled with
them"
 

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
It is simply referring to sinful Jews.
Psalm 116:11

11 I said in my haste, All men are liars.

Proverbs 12:22

22 Lying lips are abomination to the Lord: but they that deal truly are his delight.



Elohim/God Hates Liars. Every Man/Woman is a Liar. Israel Must Be Terrified To Be What Elohim/God Hates.
 

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
We can learn about rebirth from Israel's history. They went into Egypt with seventy
individuals, Exodus 1 tells us: "Now these are the names of Bnei-Yisrael who came
into Egypt with Jacob, each man with his family.....The souls that came out of the
line numbered 70 in all, while Joseph was already in Egypt" (vv. 1,5). Consider that
Israel went in as a group of only 70 souls but came out numbering in the millions!

The word for Egypt in Hebrew is Mitzraim, "a place of confinement or restriction."
Mitzraim comes from the root word tzur, which means "rock." In Jewish thought,
Egypt is considered the womb of civilization. The people in Israel was in exile for
about four hundred years. Four hundred is a multiple of forty. And forty weeks is
a full term pregnancy. So, they were in Egypt symbolically as a full term
pregnancy----not weeks but years. Egypt was the womb. The ten plagues brought
on the Egyptians were labor pains, the shaking and quaking. When the Israelites
left Egypt, they went in great haste. (This is one of the reasons we eat matzah,
unleavened bread---they left so quickly that their bread did not have time to rise.)
They were instructed to eat Passover with their loins girded and their staffs in hand.

Pregnancy can seem to be taking forever for expectant parents, and then boom!
The baby comes---often with little warning, in the middle of the night or while we
are fully engaged in something else. We can use the human birth process as an
analogy for the birth of Israel. The parting of the Red Sea was like the woman's
water breaking. Israel going through the Red Sea was like the baby going through
the birth canal. The water closing in on the Egyptian army after Israel had passed
is symbolic of God washing away their past. The old was passing away, and the new
was coming. The water closed, and they could not go back to Egypt. He was birthing
them from an enslaved people into a redeemed free nation.

As Israel could not physically return to Egypt, neither can we physically return to our
mothers' wombs. The people of Israel was born naturally with some divine intervention.
To grow as a nation---the people of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob---twelve tribes had to have
a physical birth. But they were not born supernaturally as a free nation until they escaped
Egypt. And so they had two births. They were naturally birthed through Abraham, Isaac, and
Jacob, and they went to Egypt. God used their time in Egypt to birth them as a redeemed
nation and caused a supernatural multiplication---incredibly, from seventy to millions.
This is what we read in Exodus 1:6-7:
"Then Joseph died, as did all his brothers and all that generation. Yet Bnei-Yisrael were fruitful,
increased abundantly, multiplied and grew extremely numerous---so the land was filled with
them"
Shalom
John 16:21

21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

Romans 2:28-29

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.



I see that you practice Messianic Judaism. You have written about the Birth of Israel and Fleshly and Spiritual Israel. This is in agreement with the Holy Scriptures/Bible.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Psalm 116:11

11 I said in my haste, All men are liars.

Proverbs 12:22

22 Lying lips are abomination to the Lord: but they that deal truly are his delight.



Elohim/God Hates Liars. Every Man/Woman is a Liar. Israel Must Be Terrified To Be What Elohim/God Hates.
I can always depend on you for a red herring.
 

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
I can always depend on you for a red herring.
What you call a Red Herring is your Limited Consciousness. Christian Monks have a Different Consciousness to Normal people like yourself. The Holy Scriptures/Bible is Unified Whole teaching One Unified Message. Every Holy Scripture is Interrelated towards the Same Message.
 
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Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
Jeremiah 34:8-9

8 This is the word that came unto Jeremiah from the Lord, after that the king Zedekiah had made a covenant with all the people which were at Jerusalem, to proclaim liberty unto them;

9 That every man should let his manservant, and every man his maidservant, being an Hebrew or an Hebrewess, go free; that none should serve himself of them, to wit, of a Jew his brother.

Galatians 4:23

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.



There is Israel In Slavery/Bondage and there is Israel in Freedom/Liberty. Who is Israel/Jew that is the Slave and the Israel/Jew who is the Free? Why is Israel a Slave and what makes them Free?
 

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
Genesis 9:24-25

24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.



Israel does Not Exist outside of Total Devotion to the Laws of the Elohim/God of Israel. Total Devotion to the Laws of the Elohim/God of Israel Determines that the Elohim/God of Israel Is Your Elohim/God.

This means those Totally Warring Against the Laws of Elohim/God, Rejecting the Laws of Elohim/God or Lukewarm towards the Laws of Elohim/God is Cursed Ham. Elohim/God Requires that you Must Realise that you are Cursed Ham.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Israel does Not Exist outside of Total Devotion to the Laws of the Elohim/God of Israel. Total Devotion to the Laws of the Elohim/God of Israel Determines that the Elohim/God of Israel Is Your Elohim/God.
You need to read the book of Hosea. In it, God clearly teaches that he is faithful to Israel even if Israel is sinful, just as Hosea was faithful to his prostitute wife.

Here is a link: https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16155
 

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
You need to read the book of Hosea. In it, God clearly teaches that he is faithful to Israel even if Israel is sinful, just as Hosea was faithful to his prostitute wife.

Here is a link: https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16155
Hosea 4:6

6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.



I have Read and Listened to All the Books of the Holy Scriptures/Bible from Genesis to Revelation many times. There is only Sinful Israel if Sin is Imputed. Sin is Not Imputed Without Law. That's why those Warring Against Laws of Elohim/God, Rejecting the Laws of Elohim/God or Lukewarm towards the Laws of Elohim/God cannot be a Prostitute given Sin is Not Recognised.

In other words, those that teach and practice that the Laws of Elohim/God is Redundant are Not Offending Prostitutes.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Hosea 4:6

6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

. . . And yet the scripture seems clear that so far as Israel is concerned, there will always be a remnant according to grace that's not rejected.

Would Hosea be included in the verse he himself wrote (4:6)?



John
 

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
. . . And yet the scripture seems clear that so far as Israel is concerned, there will always be a remnant according to grace that's not rejected.

Would Hosea be included in the verse he himself wrote (4:6)?



John
2 Timothy 3:16

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:



Yes, most Certainly Hosea is the Remnant According to Grace given that his Writings are Inspired by the Elohim/God of Israel. Only those that have Endured Slavery/Servitude Attain Grace.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
2 Timothy 3:16

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:



Yes, most Certainly Hosea is the Remnant According to Grace given that his Writings are Inspired by the Elohim/God of Israel. Only those that have Endured Slavery/Servitude Attain Grace.

My point was that Hosea is a part of the "my people" destroyed for lack of knowledge. And I'm sure Hosea wasn't the only one of the "my people" who wasn't lacking knowledge. In other words the "my people" (those lacking knowledge) is a generalization speaking of a large swath and doesn't necessarily speak of all of Israel.



John
 

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
My point was that Hosea is a part of the "my people" destroyed for lack of knowledge. And I'm sure Hosea wasn't the only one of the "my people" who wasn't lacking knowledge. In other words the "my people" (those lacking knowledge) is a generalization speaking of a large swath and doesn't necessarily speak of all of Israel.



John
Isaiah 64:6

6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Romans 7:24

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?



Hosea Sincerely Acknowledged his Utter Filthy Infidelity towards the Elohim/God of Israel Ensuring that Hosea Received Grace. The measure of Real Sincerity towards Elohim/God is Attainment of Grace.

Are you saying that Hosea was not Sincere in his proclamation about Israel Prostituting itself? If not, than Surely Hosea Attains Grace given that Repentance is Certain.
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Isaiah 64:6

6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Romans 7:24

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?



Hosea Sincerely Acknowledged his Utter Filthy Infidelity towards the Elohim/God of Israel Ensuring that Hosea Received Grace. The measure of Real Sincerity towards Elohim/God is Attainment of Grace.

Are you saying that Hosea was not Sincere in his proclamation about Israel Prostituting itself? If not, than Surely Hosea Attains Grace given that Repentance is Certain.

11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Know ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.​
Romans 11:1-5.​

There will always be a Jewish remnant. God will never forsake the whole of Israel. Though they slay him, yet will he redeem them.:)



John
 

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Know ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.​
Romans 11:1-5.​

There will always be a Jewish remnant. God will never forsake the whole of Israel. Though they slay him, yet will he redeem them.:)



John
Isaiah 1:9

9 Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.



Being Christian Gnostic I speak of Spiritual Israel. You are talking about Fleshly Israel. Concerning Fleshly Israel, who do you consider to be the Very Small Jewish Remnant Totally Devoted to the Elohim/God of Israel?

It appears that the Very Small Remnant Must be numbered among the Karaites. Others might say among practitioners of the Kabbalah.



Karaite Judaism

Karaite Judaism (Hebrew: יהדות קראית, romanized: Yahadut Qara'it)[a] is a Jewish religious movement characterized by the recognition of the written Tanakh alone as its supreme authority in halakha (Jewish religious law) and theology.[11] Karaites believe that all of the divine commandments which were handed down to Moses by God were recorded in the written Torah without any additional Oral Law or explanation. Unlike mainstream Rabbinic Judaism, which regards the Oral Torah, codified in the Talmud and subsequent works, as authoritative interpretations of the Torah, Karaite Jews do not treat the written collections of the oral tradition in the Midrash or the Talmud as binding.




Kabbalah

Kabbalah or Qabalah (/kəˈbɑːlə, ˈkæbələ/ kə-BAH-lə, KAB-ə-lə; Hebrew: קַבָּלָה‎, romanized: Qabbālā, lit. 'reception, tradition')[1][a] is an esoteric method, discipline and school of thought in Jewish mysticism.[2] A traditional Kabbalist is called a Mekubbal (מְקוּבָּל‎, Məqūbbāl, 'receiver').[2] The definition of Kabbalah varies according to the tradition and aims of those following it,[3] from its origin in medieval Judaism to its later adaptations in Western esotericism (Christian Kabbalah and Hermetic Qabalah). Jewish Kabbalah is a set of esoteric teachings meant to explain the relationship between the unchanging, eternal God—the mysterious Ein Sof (אֵין סוֹף‎, 'The Infinite')[4][5]—and the mortal, finite universe (God's creation).[2][4] It forms the foundation of mystical religious interpretations within Judaism.

 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Concerning Fleshly Israel, who do you consider to be the Very Small Jewish Remnant Totally Devoted to the Elohim/God of Israel?

I don't know. Personally, I would include all the Jewish sages I quote, Rabbi Samson Hirsch, Rashi, Ibn Ezra, Rabbi Isaiah Horowitz, Nachmanides . . . and all like them (which would include some of our Jewish brothers and sisters here in the forum).



John
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Hosea 4:6

6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.



I have Read and Listened to All the Books of the Holy Scriptures/Bible from Genesis to Revelation many times. There is only Sinful Israel if Sin is Imputed. Sin is Not Imputed Without Law. That's why those Warring Against Laws of Elohim/God, Rejecting the Laws of Elohim/God or Lukewarm towards the Laws of Elohim/God cannot be a Prostitute given Sin is Not Recognised.

In other words, those that teach and practice that the Laws of Elohim/God is Redundant are Not Offending Prostitutes.
ROFL you think if you yank one verse out of its context that it somehow does away with the whole point of the book of Hosea? Try reconciling it with this:
Hosea 2:19-20:
"I will betroth you to me forever;
I will betroth you in righteousness and justice,
in love and compassion.
I will betroth you in faithfulness,
and you will acknowledge the Lord."
 

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
I don't know. Personally, I would include all the Jewish sages I quote, Rabbi Samson Hirsch, Rashi, Ibn Ezra, Rabbi Isaiah Horowitz, Nachmanides . . . and all like them (which would include some of our Jewish brothers and sisters here in the forum).



John
The Talmudic and Kabbalistic teachers you have listed are Not Sages because none of them found out how to Become Sinless. The Only Sage is Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ. Are not the teachers you have listed the Pharisees that Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ Condemns? Do you agree that the Mothers Genes determines whether a person is a Jew regardless of whether they practice the Religion of the Elohim/God of Israel or Not?
 

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
ROFL you think if you yank one verse out of its context that it somehow does away with the whole point of the book of Hosea? Try reconciling it with this:
Hosea 2:19-20:
"I will betroth you to me forever;
I will betroth you in righteousness and justice,
in love and compassion.
I will betroth you in faithfulness,
and you will acknowledge the Lord."
Hosea 6:7

7 But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.



Betrothal is Only Realised when you are in a Relationship. Entering into Elohim/God of Israel Covenant you have a Relationship with him. The Covenant Marriage Contract is a Binding Agreement to Totally Devotedly Observe All the Laws of the Elohim/God of Israel. Atheists, Apostates and Lukewarm Practitioners are Not in Covenant with the Elohim/God of Israel, therefore, they are Not Israel.

You Cannot Be Israel When The Elohim/God of Israel Is Not Your Elohim/God.
 
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