Who Or What Is Israel?

[Elihoenai]

Genesis 25:25-26

25 And the first came out red, all over like an hairy garment; and they called his name Esau.

26 And after that came his brother out, and his hand took hold on Esau's heel; and his name was called Jacob: and Isaac was threescore years old when she bare them.


I was listening to audio book "Friend of God: The Inspiration of Abraham in an Age of Doubt" last night and found this contained therein:


"...The Christian writer was in conversation with a Jewish couple and the wife asked the Christian, "why aren't you a Jew?" The Christian responded with, I happen to be a Son of Abraham. The Jewish couple said this is impossible. You are not a a Jew, so how can you be a Son of Abraham? Christian asked them to define a Jew. And went on, Abraham had two Sons Ishmael and Isaac, Was Ishmael a Jew? No, they said. Why not? Because he didn't have a Jewish mother. What about Isaac? He had two Sons Esau and Jacob. Was Esau a Jew? No, came the answer. But, wasn't his mother Rebecca, the mother of Jacob as well and, therefore, herself a Jew? The Jewish couple went silent. Christian than said, could it be that it's not purely a matter of Physical Descent, but that Elohim/God was choosing a particular line of inheritance? The Jewish couple grasp at it, that's it, they said...."


The above is not all the exact words, although accurately represents the message.

Question for Forum members: How can a Jewish mother determine Jewishness when Esau is Not a Jew?

 

[John D. Brey]

The Talmudic and Kabbalistic teachers you have listed are Not Sages because none of them found out how to Become Sinless. The Only Sage is Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ. Are not the teachers you have listed the Pharisees that Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ Condemns? Do you agree that the Mothers Genes determines whether a person is a Jew regardless of whether they practice the Religion of the Elohim/God of Israel or Not?

I think I understand your point. And I don't disagree with you fully. But I think the written text of scripture we possess has a ton of wiggle-room when it comes to interpretation. It's way above my pay grade to judge who is or isn't part of God's family. I don't think the written text is able to give us certainty on such things such that I approach God with my own personal degree of fear and trembling.



John

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Hosea 6:7

7 But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.


Betrothal is Only Realised when you are in a Relationship. Entering into Elohim/God of Israel Covenant you have a Relationship with him. The Covenant Marriage Contract is a Binding Agreement to Totally Devotedly Observe All the Laws of the Elohim/God of Israel. Atheists, Apostates and Lukewarm Practitioners are Not in Covenant with the Elohim/God of Israel, therefore, they are Not Israel.

You Cannot Be Israel When The Elohim/God of Israel Is Not Your Elohim/God.

The whole point of Hosea is that Israel HAS been unfaithful to God, but that God will remain faithful to Israel.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The Talmudic and Kabbalistic teachers you have listed are Not Sages because none of them found out how to Become Sinless. T

You seem to lack any understanding of what makes a person a Sage. It certainly does not require perfection. Even the prophets were not without sin -- consider Jonah.

 

[Elihoenai]

I think I understand your point. And I don't disagree with you fully. But I think the written text of scripture we possess has a ton of wiggle-room when it comes to interpretation. It's way above my pay grade to judge who is or isn't part of God's family. I don't think the written text is able to give us certainty on such things such that I approach God with my own personal degree of fear and trembling.



John

Indeed, Interpretation is in the Eye of the Beholder. That's why there are many Different Denominations in Christendom and Different Interpretations among Denominational members. You can separate Interpretations into two Categories, Spiritual Interpretation and Fleshly Interpretation. The Fleshly Interpretation is All Pervasive in Christendom among 2.4 Billion practitioners because of Adam's Inheritance.

 

[paarsurrey]

Who Or What Is Israel?

It is a title name given by G-d to persons who courageously bore hardship/tribulations for His cause; like Jacob was titled by G-d Israel and or like Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908/ the Second Coming and Imam Mahdi was given a title name of JARI ULLAH* جَرِیُ اللّٰہِ by G-d, right, please?

Regards
___________________
*"جری اللہ فی حلل الانبیاء"

اللہ تعالیٰ نے حضرت مسیح موعود ؑکو’’جری اللّٰہ فی حلل الانبیاء ‘‘ کا خطاب دیا یعنی اللہ کا پہلوان نبیوں کے لبادہ میں۔اس الہام سے قرآن کریم کی یہ پیشگوئی بھی پوری ہوئی کہ رسولوں کو آخری وقت میں اکٹھا کیا جائے گا۔آپؑ کا دعویٰ تھا کہ اللہ تعالیٰ نے آپ کو انبیاء کے صفات و واقعات سے حصہ دیا ہے اس لیے آپ میں تمام انبیاء روحانی اورصفاتی طورپر جمع ہوگئے۔

مَیں کبھی آدم ؑ کبھی موسٰیؑ کبھی یعقوب ؑ ہوں

صداقت حضر ت مسیح موعود علیہ السلام،آپؑ کے اشعار کی زبانی - الفَضل انٹرنیشنل

Listen to 20220715-sadaqat hazrat maseh maud AS byAl Fazl International on hearthis.at ’’حضرت مسیح موعودؑ کاکلام یاد کریںاور درویشوں کی طرح گاتے ہوئے قریہ قریہ پھریں اور اس کلام کی منادی کریں اوردنیا کو بتائیں کہ وہ آگیاہے جس کے آنے سے تمہاری نجات وابستہ ہے‘‘(حضرت خلیفۃ المسیح الرابعؒ) مضمون...

www.alfazl.com

جَرِیُ اللّٰہِ فِی حُلَلِ الْاَنْبِیَاءِ۔ خدا کا رسول نبیوں کے حُلّوں میں - الفَضل انٹرنیشنل

مذہب کی تاریخ جتنی قدیم اورنظروں سے اوجھل ہے اتنی ہی جدید اورروشن بھی ہے۔ کیونکہ وہ تاریخ جو اس کرۂ ارض اورفلک پیر نے گزشتہ چھ ہزار سال میں دیکھی اورقصے اور کہانیاں بن گئی وہ اس زمانہ میں اسی طرح زندہ کردی گئی ہے جیسے صدیوں کے مٹے ہوئے کھنڈرات اور اجڑے ہوئے …

www.alfazl.com

 

[Elihoenai]

The whole point of Hosea is that Israel HAS been unfaithful to God, but that God will remain faithful to Israel.

Deuteronomy 28:1

28 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the Lord thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:


That's an Inversion of a Covenant/Marriage Contract. When a Man and Woman gets Married taking Vows, they Promise to Keep those Vows Fulfilling the Covenant/Marriage Contract. If the Man or the Woman Falsely enters into the Contract and has Multiple Affairs the Covenant is Broken and the Promises no longer Binding.

In the Same way, Israel Only Receives Elohim/s/God's Promises through Total Devotion to the Covenant/Marriage Contract with the Elohim/God of Israel. Elohim/God is Always Faithful to His Promises Entirely Conditional on Total Obedience.

 

[Elihoenai]

You seem to lack any understanding of what makes a person a Sage. It certainly does not require perfection. Even the prophets were not without sin -- consider Jonah.

Jonah 4:9

9 And God said to Jonah, Doest thou well to be angry for the gourd? And he said, I do well to be angry, even unto death.


It's you that appear to lack understanding. The Only Wise/Sage are those that have Attained Sinlessness. Jonah acknowledge that he Is Fool/Stupid Ensuring that he Becomes Sage/Wise. Sinners are Fools/Stupid having Inherited Foolishness/Stupidity from Adam.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Spiritual Interpretation and Fleshly Interpretation. The Fleshly Interpretation is All Pervasive in Christendom among 2.4 Billion practitioners because of Adam's Inheritance.

Let me guess. Spiritual interpretation is when they agree with you, and fleshly interpretation is when they disagree?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Deuteronomy 28:1

28 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the Lord thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:


That's an Inversion of a Covenant/Marriage Contract. When a Man and Woman gets Married taking Vows, they Promise to Keep those Vows Fulfilling the Covenant/Marriage Contract. If the Man or the Woman Falsely enters into the Contract and has Multiple Affairs the Covenant is Broken and the Promises no longer Binding.

In the Same way, Israel Only Receives Elohim/s/God's Promises through Total Devotion to the Covenant/Marriage Contract with the Elohim/God of Israel. Elohim/God is Always Faithful to His Promises Entirely Conditional on Total Obedience.

I don't doubt that I'm SUPPOSED to observe and do all the commandments. But there is no such thing as someone who keeps them perfectly, yet their relationship with God is not broken, because they repent. "The righteous man falls seven times and rises up again." Proverbs 24:16 Note the word RIGHTEOUS in that verse. IOW, perfection is not necessary to be righteous.

Not sure why you think entering "falsely" into a covenant is of any relevance to this discussion.

BTW, just to let you know, I'm older and have problems with my eyes. Your exceptionally tiny font is extremely difficult for me to read. I have to mess with this site and enlarge it, which is a hassle.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Jonah 4:9

9 And God said to Jonah, Doest thou well to be angry for the gourd? And he said, I do well to be angry, even unto death.


It's you that appear to lack understanding. The Only Wise/Sage are those that have Attained Sinlessness. Jonah acknowledge that he Is Fool/Stupid Ensuring that he Becomes Sage/Wise. Sinners are Fools/Stupid having Inherited Foolishness/Stupidity from Adam.

Erm.... Do you see that there is absolutely no connection between that point and your assertion that Sages are sinless. You gave an example of Jonah who absolutely did sin, and yet was STILL a prophet. Not only does that not make your point, it actually makes mine.

In your world, there are no prophets or sages.

I think it is your definition that needs to come in line with how "sage" is understood.

 

[Elihoenai]

Who Or What Is Israel?

It is a title name given by G-d to persons who courageously bore hardship/tribulations for His cause; like Jacob was titled by G-d Israel and or like Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908/ the Second Coming and Imam Mahdi was given a title name of JARI ULLAH* جَرِیُ اللّٰہِ by G-d, right, please?

Regards
___________________
*"جری اللہ فی حلل الانبیاء"

اللہ تعالیٰ نے حضرت مسیح موعود ؑکو’’جری اللّٰہ فی حلل الانبیاء ‘‘ کا خطاب دیا یعنی اللہ کا پہلوان نبیوں کے لبادہ میں۔اس الہام سے قرآن کریم کی یہ پیشگوئی بھی پوری ہوئی کہ رسولوں کو آخری وقت میں اکٹھا کیا جائے گا۔آپؑ کا دعویٰ تھا کہ اللہ تعالیٰ نے آپ کو انبیاء کے صفات و واقعات سے حصہ دیا ہے اس لیے آپ میں تمام انبیاء روحانی اورصفاتی طورپر جمع ہوگئے۔

مَیں کبھی آدم ؑ کبھی موسٰیؑ کبھی یعقوب ؑ ہوں

صداقت حضر ت مسیح موعود علیہ السلام،آپؑ کے اشعار کی زبانی - الفَضل انٹرنیشنل

Listen to 20220715-sadaqat hazrat maseh maud AS byAl Fazl International on hearthis.at ’’حضرت مسیح موعودؑ کاکلام یاد کریںاور درویشوں کی طرح گاتے ہوئے قریہ قریہ پھریں اور اس کلام کی منادی کریں اوردنیا کو بتائیں کہ وہ آگیاہے جس کے آنے سے تمہاری نجات وابستہ ہے‘‘(حضرت خلیفۃ المسیح الرابعؒ) مضمون...

www.alfazl.com

جَرِیُ اللّٰہِ فِی حُلَلِ الْاَنْبِیَاءِ۔ خدا کا رسول نبیوں کے حُلّوں میں - الفَضل انٹرنیشنل

مذہب کی تاریخ جتنی قدیم اورنظروں سے اوجھل ہے اتنی ہی جدید اورروشن بھی ہے۔ کیونکہ وہ تاریخ جو اس کرۂ ارض اورفلک پیر نے گزشتہ چھ ہزار سال میں دیکھی اورقصے اور کہانیاں بن گئی وہ اس زمانہ میں اسی طرح زندہ کردی گئی ہے جیسے صدیوں کے مٹے ہوئے کھنڈرات اور اجڑے ہوئے …

www.alfazl.com

Revelation 3:4-5

4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


Most Certainly, you have to Endure Great Suffering For Elohim/God For Israel to Be Born. Israel Proves itself Worthy to Elohim/God to Be Titled such. Elohim/God Justly Ordained the Title Israel by Merit. The Identity of Israel has Nothing to do with Privileged Genes. The teaching that Israel is Determined by Privileged Genes is Satanism.

 

[Elihoenai]

I don't doubt that I'm SUPPOSED to observe and do all the commandments. But there is no such thing as someone who keeps them perfectly, yet their relationship with God is not broken, because they repent. "The righteous man falls seven times and rises up again." Proverbs 24:16 Note the word RIGHTEOUS in that verse. IOW, perfection is not necessary to be righteous.

Not sure why you think entering "falsely" into a covenant is of any relevance to this discussion.

BTW, just to let you know, I'm older and have problems with my eyes. Your exceptionally tiny font is extremely difficult for me to read. I have to mess with this site and enlarge it, which is a hassle.

Given that either party in a Marriage breaks the Contract they have Falsely entered into the Covenant. You enter into a Covenant with the Intention to Keep the Covenant, otherwise Promises were made under False Pretenses.

In the Marriage Contract/Covenant between a Man and Woman the Covenant is Only Realised when both parties Keep their Promises and one of the parties dies under those circumstances.

It appears that the font size has been reduced in your quote from the default 15 to smaller12. I use 18 for the Holy Scriptures and default size 15 for My Writings. The font appears smaller in the quotes. Are you saying that default size 15 is too small?

 

[Elihoenai]

Let me guess. Spiritual interpretation is when they agree with you, and fleshly interpretation is when they disagree?

That's correct. I Am Christian Gnostic. The Spiritual Interpretation and Fleshly Interpretation can be Identified by Seeing the Destruction of the Flesh and the Opposing Cherishing of the Flesh. Others, have different Interpretations of what Spiritual means. Christianity, Islam and Judaism are Left-Hand Path Religions that Cherishes the Flesh in Total Opposition to Spiritual.

 

[Elihoenai]

Erm.... Do you see that there is absolutely no connection between that point and your assertion that Sages are sinless. You gave an example of Jonah who absolutely did sin, and yet was STILL a prophet. Not only does that not make your point, it actually makes mine.

In your world, there are no prophets or sages.

I think it is your definition that needs to come in line with how "sage" is understood.

1 Corinthians 3:18

18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.


Sage means Wise. Only the Sinless are Wise.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Given that either party in a Marriage breaks the Contract they have Falsely entered into the Covenant.

Oh my goodness, no, that is not the case at all. For example, a man and woman can MUTUALLY and with great sincerity enter into a marriage covenant. Yet despite that, perhaps one has an affair. You can't use the affair to go back in time and somehow delegitmize their original honesty in entering into their covenant. Indeed, an affair wouldn't even break the covenant unless one of the two decided to divorce.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That's correct.

The arrogance is astounding. Sorry, but your personal views are not the measuring rod of what is true.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

1 Corinthians 3:18

18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.


Sage means Wise. Only the Sinless are Wise.

Is there some reason that you still don't comprehend how worthless it is to quote the New Testament to a Jew?

Think: if a Muslim quoted the Quran to you, would that persuade you? If a LDS quoted the Book of Mormon to you, would you be persuaded? Because quoting the NT to me is just as much spinning your wheels, as these two examples.

BTW, even your worthless quote doesn't say what you think it says. You need to read it again. It never once mentions being sinless.

 

[Elihoenai]

Oh my goodness, no, that is not the case at all. For example, a man and woman can MUTUALLY and with great sincerity enter into a marriage covenant. Yet despite that, perhaps one has an affair. You can't use the affair to go back in time and somehow delegitmize their original honesty in entering into their covenant. Indeed, an affair wouldn't even break the covenant unless one of the two decided to divorce.

Isaiah 55:11

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

James 1:17

17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.


That's Not Goodness. You have not learnt what Real Goodness Is. Given that either party in the Marriage Contract/Covenant Commits Adultery they were Insincere entering into the Marriage Covenant. The Covenant is Not Realised Under those Circumstances.

 

[Elihoenai]

The arrogance is astounding. Sorry, but your personal views are not the measuring rod of what is true.

Everybody believes that the Religion they are practising is the True Religion, otherwise they would not be practising that Religion. Elohim/God has Revealed to me that Christian Gnosticism is the Only True Religion.