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Who Was Baha’u’llah, and How Can We Evaluate His Claims?

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
A better quote for this situation is this one. I impugned her character with that other quote, and it didn't address the situation as well anyway. Here's the quote:

Moreover, call thou to mind the one who sentenced Jesus to death. He was the most learned of his age in his own country, whilst he who was only a fisherman believed in Him. Take good heed and be of them that observe the warning.
(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 10)

Learning, if it is just intellectual, and you are attached to whatever you think you know, actually works against accepting the new Manifestation. You need to see the spirit of the scriptures, not just have intellectual knowledge concerning them.

I apologized to her, and offered this second quote.
That's awesome that you apologized. That is impressive and a big plus of being, or striving to be a true Baha'i.

I agree that taking some Bible verses too literal causes all sorts of problems. But taking things too loose makes them kind of meaningless. Like if I was a Jew, and read in Matthew how he uses Isaiah to say that the virgin birth was prophesied, that would be enough for me to reject Jesus. But then Matthew go on about the killing of the boys in Bethlehem and quotes a verse as that event was predicted. Then something about God calling his son out of Egypt and that he'd be called a "Nazarene"?

It doesn't take deep scriptural knowledge to see that this Matthew guy was just pulling verses out of context and throwing them out there and claiming that all these were fulfilled prophecies. But then, did the events that supposedly fulfilled the prophecies even happen? I even question the virgin birth. To me, that's something that could easily be a made-up legend. Who was there? Then the trip to Egypt? And the killing of the young boys? So, do we accept what it says in Matthew, or do we research it out?

Trouble is... what if we become convinced that Matthew had made all this up? What do we do with Jesus? Well, for me, if I was a Jew, I'd reject him. For non-Jews, that didn't know or care about the details, I wouldn't have a problem believing Matthew. But then where do the gospels take us from there? By the time we get done reading all the epistles along with the gospels, Jesus is "The Savior". We were all doomed to hell but now have a free ticket to heaven. Just believe in and follow Jesus and we will have our sins forgiven. And, by what is written, there is no other way to get our sins forgiven. Our good deeds won't do it. All we can to is accept the sacrifice Jesus made.

So, that is where "fisherman" kind of knowledge will get us... believing Jesus is the only way, and later, when the Christian leaders made him into a God, we'd believe that too. So, we can't be too dumb and too gullible. We need some knowledge. And Baha'is do try and impart some knowledge to help us decide correctly... What is the truth about God? So, here we are. Trying to figure out what is BS and real.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Was an 18000 reply post not enough? All those proofs have been provided.

How are these Great Beings explained?

Also did it with this OP

Muhammad and the Bible Proofs, an Islamic quandary

Regards Tony
Baha'is have a way to explain nothing and think they have explained everything. Why do you believe Jesus is the Jewish Messiah? Then, where in the Bible does it prophecy about Muhammad being a "manifestation", which makes him a "Christ", which makes him another "Messiah". So, we already have two Messiahs with two more coming. So, where in the Bible is there a prediction of four "The Messiahs"? None of these have been determined. Just because you post something like the "Three Woes are Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah" makes it so. Just because you say that Baha'u'llah is the "Comforter" doesn't make it so.

This thread is about evaluating the claims of Baha'u'llah. All these verses Baha'i use out of the Bible are part of that. They are all problematic... even the ones used to show that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I wonder, I am sure some who met Baha'u'llah were given such a demonstration.

In fact there are stories of what happened after Baha'u'llah did.

One ran into the sea and drowned himself. Baha'u'llah said that act was forgiven.
Yes, if someone actually met Baha'u'llah that might be proof but that is no longer possible.
On a side note, are you saying that suicide is a sin?
There are many recorded stories, but it is of no use telling them. As it is not proof to those that did not receive the demonstration.
That was my point above. ;):)
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The same One God. They one and all guide us to the same light.

They are all in fact showing us their own Oneness, as they are all born from the Holy Spirit, whereas we are born of the human spirit.

So all the Messengers are the light shining from the One God.

Regards Tony
A meaningless answer to everyone except other Baha'is. No doubt you'll get another "winner" for this.

The God of the Zoroastrians created two lessor gods, one good and one bad. Baha'is don't believe that.

Then Buddhism?
Who are the Buddhist Gods?
  1. Devas and Brahmas – heavenly beings that exist in five main heavens that are structured in layers above the human realm. They can exist in material or immaterial form.
  2. Nagas – are semi-divine beings who exist in the form of snakes and they can take human form. Nagas are associated with bodies of water such as lakes and rivers.
  3. Kinnaras – mythical half human, half bird creatures that come from the Himalayas and assist humans in times of trouble. They are in a perpetual state of bliss and are always dancing and singing.
  4. Garudas – the garudas are giant birds who are enemies of the nagas and are often depicted grasping a snake in their claws. They have limited divine characteristics and some can take human form if necessary.
  5. Dharmapala – this is a Sanskrit word that translates literally as “Protector of the Dharma”. Dharmapala are actually Buddhas or Bodhisattvas that have taken the form of fierce protectors of the faith e.g. Yamantaka.
And this...
God in Buddhism
Since the time of the Buddha, the refutation of the existence of a creator has been seen as a key point in distinguishing Buddhist from non-Buddhist views.[1] Buddhism is usually considered a religion, but is also commonly described as a "spiritual philosophy", because it generally lacks an Absolute creator god. The Buddhist approach is clinical and systematic. In the Four Noble Truths, the Buddha analyzed the problem of suffering, diagnosed its root cause and prescribed a method to dispel suffering. He taught that through insight into the nature of existence and the wisdom of "not-self" or "selflessness" (anatta) [2] all sentient beings following the noble eightfold path can dispel ignorance and thereby suffering. Hence Buddhism does not hinge upon the concept of a Creator God but upon the personal practice of ethics, meditation, and wisdom.[3] Buddhist philosophy can also be contrasted with Hindu ideas[4] of an ultimate Self, the definition of which varies between sects.

However, in all Buddhist traditions, veneration of the Buddha as a teacher of Dharma is significant and an important part of spiritual development. While according to Pali Buddhism, the Buddha rejected being deified, in some streams of Mahayana Buddhism Gautama Buddha is worshipped as 'an omnipotent divinity endowed with numerous supernatural attributes and qualities'.[5]
Then God and Krishna... Wait, Krishna is God?
Known as the “Divinity of Love,” Krishna is the god of affection, sensitivity, and compassion. As a trickster, kind lover, supreme being and child-like deity, he is depicted in Hindu mythology as well as in popular culture.

Krishna (Sanskrit Ka) is one of the most widely revered and most popular of all Indian divinities, worshipped as the eighth incarnation (avatar, or avatara) of the Hindu god Vishnu as well as a supreme god in his own right. Krishna is the eighth incarnation (avatar, or avatara) of the Hindu god Vishnu and also a supreme god in his own right.

He is revered as the eighth avatar of Vishnu, as well as the highest God in his own right, according to Hindu tradition. Among Indian divinities, he is known as the deity of protection as well as compassion, tenderness, and love. He is also known as one of the most popular and universally respected of all of the gods.

Krishna, the great exponent of the Bhagavad Gita, is one of the most powerful incarnations of Vishnu, the Godhead of the Hindu Trinity of deities, and one of the most powerful incarnations of Vishnu. He is the most popular of all the Vishnu incarnations, and he is possibly the most beloved of all Hindu gods since he is the one who is closest to the hearts of the people.​

It's understandable that you don't quote anything from the religion itself that defines what each religion believes about God. All Baha'is can do is say that all these things about God and the Gods are wrong. And "originally" all the religion taught about the one true God. Of course, there is no evidence for that... just the word of the Baha'is. The closest to the one God of the Baha'is is the Zoroastrians, but then that God creates a Satan-like spirit being? Which Baha'is say is not true.

So, what Baha'is believe is fine, except for one thing... they try and make all the other religions fall into line with their beliefs. Why can't the just be different and be wrong? Why do Baha'is have to pretend that "originally" all the religions believed in the one true God?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
This thread is about evaluating the claims of Baha'u'llah. All these verses Baha'i use out of the Bible are part of that.
Nope, the Bible has nothing to do with evaluating the claims of Baha'u'llah.
The day you finally figure that out, if you ever do, maybe you can look at the 'actual evidence' for Baha'u'llah that He enjoined us to look at, the evidence that establishes the truth of His claims.

Below is what Baha’u’llah wrote about evidence. More specifically, Baha’u’llah enjoined us to look at His own Self (His character), His Revelation (His works, which can be seen in Baha'i history), and His words (His Writings).

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

I was compelled to say that and now I will go back to my room and leave you alone. ;)
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Really, how long have we been discussing these issues with you?

All the topics have been covered, especially those of nature and nurtures influence over one's faith outlook.

Regards Tony

So what is your explanation for all the different versions of god suiting the cultural and geographic circumstances of their origin rather than there being an underlying similarity?

Why is this so hard for Baha'is to talk about? People make up Gods and make up rituals and laws to fit their culture.
This is what's so hard for Baha'i to talk about. How every people and culture had different Gods. What is the Baha'i answer to that?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Funny was good to. :D

Regards Tony
Yes, it's funny that Baha'is don't have any prophecies they can provide that clearly show anything. They are all too vague to prove anything. All of your "1260" prophecies, like I've said again and again, describe events that start and stop at different times. But the Baha'is make them all start in 621AD and end in 1844. All six of them? Clear and obviously true to you, but to who else? Then the 1290 and 1335 day prophecies from Daniel? Do Baha'is even believe the "fulfillment" of those? Way too contorted.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The Bible is a sure guide to this day and the reaction to the Message of Baha’u’llah.

2 Chronicles 36:16 "But they kept mocking the messengers of God, despising his words and scoffing at his prophets, until the wrath of the Lord rose against his people, until there was no remedy..."

This is the hour we as humanity are now at.

We have been warned many times.

2 Peter 3:3-7 "Knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly."

Notice the creative Word of God is also the Flood and the Fire of God's Wrath.

Regards Tony
All that shows is that Baha'is can cherry-pick as good as anybody. The Bible is a "sure" guide when it supports your beliefs, and is not when it contradicts your beliefs. But that's okay, everybody does that. So, how do we evaluate truth when something like the Bible can be used to "prove" anything you want? Oh, and my favorite cherry-picked verse, there will be wars and rumors of wars but that is not yet the end. If that true, then the "end" hasn't come yet. Oh, and I can't forget my other favorite verse, he showed himself to be alive by many proofs. But Baha'is say Jesus died and stayed dead? Is the NT wrong? If so, then it's not much of a "sure" guide.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
Learning, if it is just intellectual, and you are attached to whatever you think you know, actually works against accepting the new Manifestation. You need to see the spirit of the scriptures, not just have intellectual knowledge concerning them.
That is what everyone says about their sacred texts. Polytheistic, monotheistic and non-theistic religions alike. People from all traditions sincerely believe that they see the spirit of their respective scriptures. Even the scriptures that directly contradict one another. Even the scriptures that directly contradict yours.

Are the people who claim to see the spirit of their scriptures wrong when they call your scriptures misguided or demonic?

It seems to me that we have a world full of religious people denigrating intellectual knowledge, in favor of what you call seeing the spirit of their scriptures, because it allows y'all to believe the doctrine that y'all are attached to.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Yes, if someone actually met Baha'u'llah that might be proof but that is no longer possible.
On a side note, are you saying that suicide is a sin?

That was my point above. ;):)

"The Universal House Of Justice has instructed us to share with you the following excerpt from a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi by his secretary to a believer who asked about suicide. "'suicide is forbidden in the Cause. God Who is the Author of all life can alone take it away, and dispose of it the way he deems best. Whoever commits suicide endangers his soul, and will suffer spiritually as a result in the other worlds beyond.' "the House of Justice admonishes you to put all thought of suicide and death out of your mind and concentrate on prayer and effort to serve the Cause of Bahá’u’lláh..."

Universal House of Justice, Lights of Guidance, p. 203

There is lots to consider though, it is a larger topic than yes and no.

Some quotes here

Suicide | Bahá’í Quotes

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
A meaningless answer to everyone except other Baha'is. No doubt you'll get another "winner" for this.

The God of the Zoroastrians created two lessor gods, one good and one bad. Baha'is don't believe that.

Then Buddhism?
Who are the Buddhist Gods?
  1. Devas and Brahmas – heavenly beings that exist in five main heavens that are structured in layers above the human realm. They can exist in material or immaterial form.
  2. Nagas – are semi-divine beings who exist in the form of snakes and they can take human form. Nagas are associated with bodies of water such as lakes and rivers.
  3. Kinnaras – mythical half human, half bird creatures that come from the Himalayas and assist humans in times of trouble. They are in a perpetual state of bliss and are always dancing and singing.
  4. Garudas – the garudas are giant birds who are enemies of the nagas and are often depicted grasping a snake in their claws. They have limited divine characteristics and some can take human form if necessary.
  5. Dharmapala – this is a Sanskrit word that translates literally as “Protector of the Dharma”. Dharmapala are actually Buddhas or Bodhisattvas that have taken the form of fierce protectors of the faith e.g. Yamantaka.
And this...
God in Buddhism
Since the time of the Buddha, the refutation of the existence of a creator has been seen as a key point in distinguishing Buddhist from non-Buddhist views.[1] Buddhism is usually considered a religion, but is also commonly described as a "spiritual philosophy", because it generally lacks an Absolute creator god. The Buddhist approach is clinical and systematic. In the Four Noble Truths, the Buddha analyzed the problem of suffering, diagnosed its root cause and prescribed a method to dispel suffering. He taught that through insight into the nature of existence and the wisdom of "not-self" or "selflessness" (anatta) [2] all sentient beings following the noble eightfold path can dispel ignorance and thereby suffering. Hence Buddhism does not hinge upon the concept of a Creator God but upon the personal practice of ethics, meditation, and wisdom.[3] Buddhist philosophy can also be contrasted with Hindu ideas[4] of an ultimate Self, the definition of which varies between sects.

However, in all Buddhist traditions, veneration of the Buddha as a teacher of Dharma is significant and an important part of spiritual development. While according to Pali Buddhism, the Buddha rejected being deified, in some streams of Mahayana Buddhism Gautama Buddha is worshipped as 'an omnipotent divinity endowed with numerous supernatural attributes and qualities'.[5]
Then God and Krishna... Wait, Krishna is God?
Known as the “Divinity of Love,” Krishna is the god of affection, sensitivity, and compassion. As a trickster, kind lover, supreme being and child-like deity, he is depicted in Hindu mythology as well as in popular culture.

Krishna (Sanskrit Ka) is one of the most widely revered and most popular of all Indian divinities, worshipped as the eighth incarnation (avatar, or avatara) of the Hindu god Vishnu as well as a supreme god in his own right. Krishna is the eighth incarnation (avatar, or avatara) of the Hindu god Vishnu and also a supreme god in his own right.

He is revered as the eighth avatar of Vishnu, as well as the highest God in his own right, according to Hindu tradition. Among Indian divinities, he is known as the deity of protection as well as compassion, tenderness, and love. He is also known as one of the most popular and universally respected of all of the gods.

Krishna, the great exponent of the Bhagavad Gita, is one of the most powerful incarnations of Vishnu, the Godhead of the Hindu Trinity of deities, and one of the most powerful incarnations of Vishnu. He is the most popular of all the Vishnu incarnations, and he is possibly the most beloved of all Hindu gods since he is the one who is closest to the hearts of the people.​

It's understandable that you don't quote anything from the religion itself that defines what each religion believes about God. All Baha'is can do is say that all these things about God and the Gods are wrong. And "originally" all the religion taught about the one true God. Of course, there is no evidence for that... just the word of the Baha'is. The closest to the one God of the Baha'is is the Zoroastrians, but then that God creates a Satan-like spirit being? Which Baha'is say is not true.

So, what Baha'is believe is fine, except for one thing... they try and make all the other religions fall into line with their beliefs. Why can't the just be different and be wrong? Why do Baha'is have to pretend that "originally" all the religions believed in the one true God?

When we sit down and study it CG it all points to the fact God is One and that good and Evil are all part of this world. We can make as many God's as we wish to.

Sorry not time to explore this deeply.

Regards Tony
 
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