Who Was Baha’u’llah, and How Can We Evaluate His Claims?

[TransmutingSoul]

So he didn't perform miracles, just bluffed?

Oh Dear link.

What happened is recorded. You can read the stories, but I will not use them to prove Baha'u'llah, as the Word of Allah, given by Baha'u'llah is proof enough that Allah does as Allah Will's.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

But you are claiming that there was light from the sum before the sun existed. Which is obvious nonsense.

No, he was claiming that there was light from the sun before the sun shone on the horizon.

The sun always existed because the souls of the Bab and Baha'u'llah existed in the spiritual world before they were born into this world. When they were born into this wold the sun shone in all its splendor.

 

[Trailblazer]

They are your thoughts, not mine, nor I would offer does any Baha'i think that.

They are also illogical thoughts since women serve on all the Baha'i institutions.
But what the heck, logic goes right out the window when one is on a mission to denigrate the Faith.

 

[Link]

Oh Dear link.

What happened is recorded. You can read the stories, but I will not use them to prove Baha'u'llah, as the Word of Allah, given by Baha'u'llah is proof enough that Allah does as Allah Will's.

Regards Tony

I'm going by what you said. According to the story, he bluffed, but didn't do the miracles in public.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yet if former generations accepted the signs in form of miracles and accept God's proofs who perform them and power displayed by such signs, per Quran, God would never stop sending them.

He only ever stops sending them in any period, after the former generations denied them.

So they are meant to be in the open. Ghayba was meant to be prevented and hadiths prophecizing it are warnings if we go astray and don't help Imams (a) enough.

Imam Hassan Al-Askari (a) gathered an army as a last attempt to keep the ghayba from happening, but Shiites failed to help him enough, and the sadness of disappearance of the Mahdi (A) as the Prophecies conditioned if we disobey God and follow the ways of disobedience of Bani-Israel regarding their Messengers and leaders with our leaders, came to pass.

Warnings in Quran and Sunnah, are meant to be avoided.

God warned miracles would disappear if the first generations deny them and why this results in Ghayba of such signs in the open, Quran has explained through out.

وَمَا مَنَعَنَا أَنْ نُرْسِلَ بِالْآيَاتِ إِلَّا أَنْ كَذَّبَ بِهَا الْأَوَّلُونَ ۚ وَآتَيْنَا ثَمُودَ النَّاقَةَ مُبْصِرَةً فَظَلَمُوا بِهَا ۚ وَمَا نُرْسِلُ بِالْآيَاتِ إِلَّا تَخْوِيفًا | Nothing keeps Us from sending with the signs except that the former people denied them. We gave Thamud the she-camel as an eye-opener, but they wronged her. We do not send the signs except as warning. | Al-Israa : 59

So if all the miracles of the Bab, Baha'u'llah and even Abdul'baha were shown, then you would have no choice but to accept Baha'u'llah?

But here is the quandary, I will not search them out and offer them, as Baha'u'llah has said do not use them. As a Message from Allah is not a mere plaything for children.

I did in the past offer a couple, yet they are just brushed aside. That is the way it will always be.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I'm going by what you said. According to the story, he bluffed, but didn't do the miracles in public.

It was not a bluff. Allah taught us not to demand miracles as proof.

Even that proof is not enough to those that want a literal display of the power of Allah, the creator of the Heaven and the Earth.

This is very frustrating Link. That is because I am not a a patience person, unfortunately.

Regards Tony

 

[Link]

So if all the miracles of the Bab, Baha'u'llah and even Abdul'baha were shown, then you would have no choice but to accept Baha'u'llah?

But here is the quandary, I will not search them out and offer them, as Baha'u'llah has said do not use them. As a Message from Allah is not a mere plaything for children.

I did in the past offer a couple, yet they are just brushed aside. That is the way it will always be.

Regards Tony

Tony,

Let's get this straight.

Prophets not performing miracles in public is proof they are not Prophets.

They are proofs however only to those who witness them or by overwhelming amount of testimony, that you know for sure it happened.

In time, the testimony is lost, through history, and people can doubt.

So historical miracles (in the past) are not a sign or proof. But if it's recorded they didn't perform miracles after miracles in public. And rather, only a few followers here and there testify to their miracles. It's known they performed no such thing in public at least, which, is a proof against them.

So while history records of miracles are not useful for affirming them, they are useful, that if recorded, they didn't perform these continuously in public, that this evidence they are not Prophets.

I don't know what you guys claim happened. I'm just going by your story, that he bluffed it and then so didn't perform them in public, but only per your sources (it seems, I don't know) to some followers that already believed.

 

[Trailblazer]

a Message from Allah is not a mere plaything for children.

It certainly is not, it is to be taken seriously.

 

[Link]

It certainly is not, it is to be taken seriously.

But fabrications and sophistry with language is not.

And false Prophets can't be equated with true Prophets. God's revelations and proofs in form of "the book" can't be equated with garbage from fabricators.

What is reality. We are having a discussion.

If you testify for his words, I've read them and testify against them.

I testify for Quran though.

But you can make a thread like my signs of eloquence of Quran thread and show how subtle and calculated and eloquent the words of your scriptures are. But I know for certain these features of calculated speech are not features of your scriptures.

Your scriptures are uncalculated spray paint all over the place. One huge mess.

 

[Trailblazer]

You initially claimed that earlier religions were not corrupted...
Now you claim that earlier religions were from god and were corrupted.

I claimed that earlier religions were not corrupted when they were first revealed.
I always claimed that earlier religions were from God and were corrupted by man over time.

 

[Trailblazer]

What if the house doesn't have a fireplace?

A Baha'i does not need to have a fireplace to hold a fireside.

 

[Trailblazer]

If morality is just whatever god subjectively decides it is, how do you know it is necessarily "good" or "bad"?

God does not decide anything subjectively. God reveals Laws through Messengers.
We believers know it is good because God is good, so God only wants what is good for humans.

“Consider the mercy of God and His gifts. He enjoineth upon you that which shall profit you, though He Himself can well dispense with all creatures.” Gleanings, p. 140

“The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath wished nothing for Himself. The allegiance of mankind profiteth Him not, neither doth its perversity harm Him. The Bird of the Realm of Utterance voiceth continually this call: “All things have I willed for thee, and thee, too, for thine own sake.” Gleanings, p. 260

 

[TransmutingSoul]

@TransmutingSoul

There are over 100 miracles of Mohammad (s) recorded in Sunni books. Say some are fabrications, you can't dismiss them all if you give hadiths weight. There are many I don't know how much in Shiite books as well of Mohammad (s).

Also, we have Imams (a) doing many miracles including raising dead to life and other miracles.

There are also many miracles recorded of Imam Ali (a) in Sunni sources as well, including lifting a giant door/gate in Khaybar and using it in battle.

The number of killed by Imam Ali (a) in battles was not normal and this recorded in both sources. So miracles of Mohammad (S) and Ali (a) are recorded both sunni and Shiite sources.

As for rest of Imams (a), if you don't give weight to twelver hadiths on it, you should see historical and Sunni sources, they have a section of "Karamat" of Saints in their view, and you can read about these. They call them honors of friends of God, and don't see them as miracles, but they include things which are no doubt signs and miracles. Imam Hassan (a) to the next Imam Hassan (a) (11th Imam), are recoded to all sort of miracles in Sunni sources, just look up section of "Karamat" in their books. So many miracles recorded.

The greatest Miracle is that of people changing their heart and seeing Allah in the Messenger. As that makes all things new, which no death can overtake.

As to the rest, I find it is disrespectful to the Messenger and Allah to try to use them.as proof.

Many believers have recorded their experiences Link. One can choose to read those stories.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Hinduism is a polytheist religion. If it is "a religion of god", then polytheism is a religion of god, by definition.

No, that logic does not follow because polytheism is not a religion, it is a belief about gods.
Also, Hinduism has been changed and corrupted, just like all the older religions, sothere is no way to know if polytheism was ever revealed by God.

How do you know anything happened to it? It has always been polytheistic.

I know something has happened because Hinduism is split into different sects.

How many sects are there in Hinduism?

Four major traditions are, however, used in scholarly studies: Vaishnavism, Shaivism, Shaktism and Smartism. These are sometimes referred to as the denominations of Hinduism, and they differ in the primary deity at the centre of the tradition.
Hindu denominations - Wikipedia

You said... "I believe in God and Jesus so I am covered. Who is covering your bases?"
I believe in those religions because it is a Baha'i belief that they are true religions.

I said I believe in God and Jesus so I am covered
I never said that I believe in other religions to cover my bases.

What about the various Hindu gods? You just claimed that it is god's religion as well.

I do not believe in many Gods, so I believe that is a false teaching.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Tony,

Let's get this straight.

Prophets not performing miracles in public is proof they are not Prophets.

They are proofs however only to those who witness them or by overwhelming amount of testimony, that you know for sure it happened.

In time, the testimony is lost, through history, and people can doubt.

So historical miracles (in the past) are not a sign or proof. But if it's recorded they didn't perform miracles after miracles in public. And rather, only a few followers here and there testify to their miracles. It's known they performed no such thing in public at least, which, is a proof against them.

So while history records of miracles are not useful for affirming them, they are useful, that if recorded, they didn't perform these continuously in public, that this evidence they are not Prophets.

I don't know what you guys claim happened. I'm just going by your story, that he bluffed it and then so didn't perform them in public, but only per your sources (it seems, I don't know) to some followers that already believed.

You have said exactly what the Baha'i Writings have offered "They are proofs however only to those who witness them". Yet that is not even always the case, as people that do see them, still disregard them.

I will offer this, as it is an event well recorded.

Over 10,000 witnesses to the Martyrdom of the Bab, one of the greatest miracles ever seen. A whole regiment of Christian Troops was thus spared from taking the life of the Bab and a Muslim regiment did the dirty deed, which also had miraculous reprocussions as that regiment then suffered the same fate they dished out to the Bab.

So, I am saying Link, that it is up to you to read the stories of those that met Baha’u’llah.

I am not offering any of those stories as proof of Baha’u’llah.

Regards Tony

 

[Link]

Small testimony would make me join cults. All sorts of cult followers claim miracles by their leaders but their leaders shy away from public and performing miracles in public.

The case is your story per your own words, show, your Prophet didn't perform in public, but rather we have small testimony similarly to small cults today (which I pay no attention to).

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Small testimony would make me join cults. All sorts of cult followers claim miracles by their leaders but their leaders shy away from public and performing miracles in public.

The case is your story per your own words, show, your Prophet didn't perform in public, but rather we have small testimony similarly to small cults today (which I pay no attention to).

Be fair and just Link. You hold onto one aspect of a story, which you now have taken out of the context in which it was given, to mould to your thoughts.

Then you go on to prove 100% why Baha’u’llah took miracles off the table.

When one has a full cup, another can not offer anything else.

Regards Tony

 

[Link]

why Baha’u’llah took miracles off the table.

Going by your own words...

 

[Trailblazer]

Small testimony would make me join cults. All sorts of cult followers claim miracles by their leaders but their leaders shy away from public and performing miracles in public.

The case is your story per your own words, show, your Prophet didn't perform in public, but rather we have small testimony similarly to small cults today (which I pay no attention to).

Over 10,000 witnesses to the Martyrdom of the Bab, one of the greatest miracles ever seen, was performed in public.

 

[Link]

When one has a full cup, another can not offer anything else.

The Quran and Ahlulbayt (a) rope keeps expanding me in insights. Part of this is I don't play word games anymore, but only follow what is clear to me, and clarify more through clear words. Clear signs leads to more clear signs, and Quran get's more clear with more knowledge. Not more ambiguous and unclear, which is what Bahai faith leads to as far as Quran goes.