Who wrote the Quran, and is it infallible ?

[Peace4all]

Salam,

Ok, so I was going to ponder you with three pages about the Quran but I think people gave you the general point. Mohamed PBUH was an illiterate man and later in his life chose to remain illiterate so the Quran would seem more like a miracle. The Quran actually was revealed to Mohamed PBUH in a series of events. Each time something happened a section of the Quran came down. For example: When the Israelites were quizzing the prophet about the people of the cave Allah SWT sent a revelation to him about the people of the cave to reply back to the Israelites, and etc. So yes the Quran is the direct word of god, syllable by syllable. Throughout time Allah SWT sent many prophets to many nations. However after a certain amount of time the message and book would become corrupted so Allah SWT would send a new messenger. Like the Bible for example. Mohamed’s message was the final one because Allah SWT promised to preserve the Quran and it’s message. We believe that all prophets had differences in their way to worship and their customs but they had one united message: To believe in one supreme almighty, all perfect, self sufficient god and to worship him.

At the time of death of Prophet Mohamed PBUH there were 75 different people that memorized the entire Quran. It was actually written down after the prophet’s death supervised by the rest of the 74 people to make sure it was correct. So we believe that the Quran is the direct word of god.

I don’t think anyone could see the miracle of the Quran to the degree of the Old Arabic speaking people. When you translate the Quran it sounds dull; however, in original format it’s beautiful with it’s rhythm that matches the situation. It’s a work of art that touches the heart if you open your heart to it.


Salam
--Peace4All



​

 

[maro]

Do you read a book in the dark?Regards,Scott

no of course , I don't

but this is not an answer to me

 

[maro]

---------------------------The Baha`i Faith is not a philosophy, it's an independent religion. As an independent religion it teaches that the Baha`i Faith is but a continuation of the Religion of God as taught by Abraham. Islam, Sikhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism and most other religions of revelation are also continuations, each in turn, of the Religion of God.The Baha`i Faith was founded by a Prophet just as Christianity and Islam were founded by seperate Prophets, yet were still pages in the Book of Revelation.Regards,Scott

I have two questions for u

first, do Bahai think that the Quran is infallible?

second,
As I know , there is a rule that was never broken
for every prophet , there must be a miracle ,to prove his prophecy to people

so what was the miracle of Baha 'ullah , that makes u believe he was a prophet

I don't think writing a book , is enough for someone , to claim his prophecy


and also, my first Question that was not answered yet :

what do u mean by (illuminate ) the words of God

 

[Popeyesays]

I have two questions for u

first, do Bahai think that the Quran is infallible?

Yes, I believe the Qur'an is infallible. Do I believe that any single person can accurately understand all the nuance of the language as God dictated it to Muhammad? No. The Word can be infallible and any person's understanding of the Word still be fallible.

second,
As I know , there is a rule that was never broken
for every prophet , there must be a miracle ,to prove his prophecy to people

so what was the miracle of Baha 'ullah , that makes u believe he was a prophet

Before I answer this adequately, would you kindly point out the miracle of Muhammad to which you refer?

I don't think writing a book , is enough for someone , to claim his prophecy

Surah Six (The Cattle) (Pickthall, tr) verse 157:
"157 Or lest ye should say: If the Scripture had been revealed unto us, we surely had been better guided than are they. Now hath there come unto you a clear proof from your Lord, a guidance and mercy; and who doeth greater wrong than he who denieth the revelations of Allah, and turneth away from them ? We award unto those who turn away from Our revelations an evil doom because of their aversion."

17 Is he (to be counted equal with them) who relieth on a clear proof from his Lord, and a witness from Him reciteth it, and before it was the Book of Moses, an example and a mercy ? Such believe therein, and whoso disbelieveth therein of the clans, the Fire is his appointed place. So be not thou in doubt concerning it. Lo! it is the Truth from thy Lord; but most of mankind believe not.
(The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura 11 - Hud)

43 And We sent not (as Our messengers) before thee other than men whom We inspired - Ask the followers of the Remembrance if ye know not! -
44 With clear proofs and writings; and We have revealed unto thee the Remembrance that thou mayst explain to mankind that which hath been revealed for them, and that haply they may reflect.
(The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura 16 - The Bee)

43 And We sent not (as Our messengers) before thee other than men whom We inspired - Ask the followers of the Remembrance if ye know not! -
44 With clear proofs and writings; and We have revealed unto thee the Remembrance that thou mayst explain to mankind that which hath been revealed for them, and that haply they may reflect.
(The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura 16 - The Bee)

From Baha`u'llah comes the explanation of Surah 2, verse 23:

"In another passage He likewise saith: "And if ye be in doubt as to that which We have sent down to Our Servant, then produce a Surah like it, and summon your witnesses, beside God, if ye are men 205 of truth."[1] Behold, how lofty is the station, and how consummate the virtue, of these verses which He hath declared to be His surest testimony, His infallible proof, the evidence of His all-subduing power, and a revelation of the potency of His will. He, the divine King, hath proclaimed the undisputed supremacy of the verses of His Book over all things that testify to His truth. For compared with all other proofs and tokens, the divinely-revealed verses shine as the sun, whilst all others are as stars. To the peoples of the world they are the abiding testimony, the incontrovertible proof, the shining light of the ideal King. Their excellence is unrivalled, their virtue nothing can surpass. They are the treasury of the divine pearls and the depository of the divine mysteries. They constitute the indissoluble Bond, the firm Cord, the Urvatu'l-Vuthqa, the inextinguishable Light. Through them floweth the river of divine knowledge, and gloweth the fire of His ancient and consummate wisdom. This is the fire which, in one and the same moment, kindleth the flame of love in the breasts of the faithful, and induceth the chill of heedlessness in the heart of the enemy."
[1 Qur'án 2:23.]
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 204)

and also, my first Question that was not answered yet :

what do u mean by (illuminate ) the words of God

"25 And if they deny thee, those before them also denied. Their messengers came unto them with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), and with the Psalms and the Scripture giving light."

Regards,
Scott

 

[Laila]

---------------------------The Baha`i Faith is not a philosophy, it's an independent religion. As an independent religion it teaches that the Baha`i Faith is but a continuation of the Religion of God as taught by Abraham. Islam, Sikhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism and most other religions of revelation are also continuations, each in turn, of the Religion of God.The Baha`i Faith was founded by a Prophet just as Christianity and Islam were founded by seperate Prophets, yet were still pages in the Book of Revelation.Regards,Scott

That is interesting. I thought the founder of the faith was an Iranian Muslim man! I'm not being funny - this is what my tour guide told me!

 

[Laila]

---------------------------The Baha`i Faith is not a philosophy, it's an independent religion

Another think Scott which puzzles me, or maybe I'm just being thick:cover:
Why does the famous Bahai Lotus Temple have quotes from other religious books? I mean Muslims don't quote from the Bible (when talking about their own faith) and Christians don't take the verses from the Quran when discussing an issue from their faith.

It's all good for social cohension to find thinks in common, but............how does that make the Bahai faith an independent religion?

My questions are in good faith Scott, if I have misconceptions they need to be cleared up.

 

[Popeyesays]

Another think Scott which puzzles me, or maybe I'm just being thick:cover:
Why does the famous Bahai Lotus Temple have quotes from other religious books? I mean Muslims don't quote from the Bible (when talking about their own faith) and Christians don't take the verses from the Quran when discussing an issue from their faith.

It's all good for social cohension to find thinks in common, but............how does that make the Bahai faith an independent religion?

My questions are in good faith Scott, if I have misconceptions they need to be cleared up.

Laila, I have no doubt your questions are in good faith.

The quotations are ALL from God's Revelation whether they occur in the Torah, the Injeel, the Qur'an, the Vedas, Ghata or the Avestas--OR the Baha`i sacred texts.

We consider the Revelation of God to be unifinished always renewable. To quote from any is to quote from all.

The learned of Islam do often look at the TaNakh (the Hebrew writings of which the Torah is part) and the Gospel, and believes the Zoroastrians and Mandaeans also have the "Book".

Christians will rarely look at the Qur'an because they do not accept it as genuine.

I believe the Religion of God is INCLUSIVE, not exclusive.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

That is interesting. I thought the founder of the faith was an Iranian Muslim man! I'm not being funny - this is what my tour guide told me!

He was born in Persia, indeed. Jesus was born in Palestine, Muhammad in Arabia.

Muhammad says Abraham was a Muslim, after all. What does "Muslim" actually mean? It means "One Who Submits to the Will of God". It was the will of God that Abraham reveal to mankind what He was bid to reveal. So, to with Muhammad, and Baha`u'llah (from the Baha`i point of view).

 

[BruceDLimber]

Hi!

L> I thought the founder of the [Baha'i Faith] was an Iranian Muslim man! I'm not being funny - this is what my tour guide told me!

Yes; that's correct. Baha'u'llah was born a Muslim and later founded the Baha'i Faith, just as Jesus was born a Jew and later founded Christianity!

L>... how [is] the Bahai faith an independent religion?

The Baha'i Faith has its own, Baha'i scriptures (about 200 volumes of them!), teachings, laws, etc., plus other things not found in any previous religious dispensation.

One example is its administrative system, which is fully democratic without being political (and is already in use world wide). It was revealed in our scriptures and we thus consider it God-given.

Best,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

Hi!

I don't understand how the Quran now can be superseded by the Baha'i scriptures. Any specific reason?

(I see someone else doesn't especially like the word "superceded," but I'm not going to get into semantic quibbling over this. Here's the point, and the reason why this happens

We Baha'is believe in what's called Progressive Revelation.

This means that there is no "last," final Revelation from God, but rather that God continually sends humanity new laws and teachings as we need them due to the gradual growth in our capabilities and understanding.

(And to dispose of this before it's raised, there are three different answers that explain the verse in the Qur'an speaking of Muhammad as the Seal of the prophets, which we Baha'is accept as true:

- First, the Qur'anic word translated as "prophets" is "nabi"--meaning minot prophets, not "Ras'ul"--which would mean major Divine Messengers! So Muhammad is the Seal of the minor prophets.

- Second, there is a sense in which EVERY Divine Messenger is the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End, the Alpha and the Omega, and the Seal.

- And finally, the word commonly translated as "seal" also means "ornament," so it's entirely possible that this verse simply says that Muhammad is the Ornament of the prophets--nothing whatever about any sort of finish!)

To continue about Progressive Revelation, there are two sorts of religious teachings:

- Spiritual teachings are permanent and universal (though sometimes expressed in different wordings); these are found in all the great religions. Examples are "there is a God," "you're here for a reason," "don't murder," etc..

- Social teachings, in contrast, are INTENTIONALLY temporary, and any Divine Messenger can alter or abolish any of them in a later Age (though we humans cannot). Examples include laws about prayer, marriage and divorce, fasting, etc..

So in the Baha'i view, God has yet again sent teachings and laws to meet humanity's needs today! And He will continue to do so forever.

Thus, religion evolves over time just as creation does....

And in fact, we see ALL the great religions as successive stages in a single evolving faith, the Faith of God!

I hope this helps answer your question.

Best,

Bruce

 

[Laila]

Cheers, Scot and Bruce, for the clarification.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Cheers, Scot and Bruce, for the clarification.

Our pleasure, Laila, and please feel free to keep the questions coming!

Best,

Bruce

 

[maro]

well , as I understand from u , that both of us (muslims and Bahai ) agree that the Quran is the infalible words of Allah

but, the Bahai think that it still needs re - illumination

and this re illumination , is a kind of re understanding the meaning of its verses ( but not rejecting them )


so ,I have to ask , how u as a Bahai understand this verse of the Quran :

sura3 , verse 85

"And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam , it will never be accepted of him ,and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers "

About the Miracles of the prophet (pbuh)

first , the Quran itself is the greatest miracle which proves his prophecy

(and u can find many books , and sites on that )

But yet , the prophet (pbuh) had other miracles,
and although we didn't see them , we ( as muslims ) believe in those mentioned in the quran and al Hadith

for example,
when the people of Makka requested the prophet to show them a miracle , he (pbuh) showed them the splitting of the moon

Sura 54 , Verses 1-2

and the miracle of ( al isra wa al Meraj )

Sura 17 :1

sura 53 : 1 _18

and there r other miracles mentioned in the hadith ( but i don't know wether the bahai accept the sunna , as they accept the quran , or not )

 

[BruceDLimber]

Hi!

oth of us (muslims and Bahai ) agree that the Quran is the infalible words of Allah

but, the Bahai think that it still needs re - illumination

so ,I have to ask , how u as a Bahai understand this verse of the Quran :

sura3 , verse 85

"And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam , it will never be accepted of him ,and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers "

I wouldn't call it "re-illumination."

And as to the verse you quoted, it was very true FOR THAT AGE! But this is a different age.

And what was needed--and has now been revealed--are new social teachings and laws for THIS AGE, as contrasted with others thouosands of years ago!

Here's one obvious example: AS REVEALED, both Christianity and Islam permitted slavery.

This has now been explicitly forbidden in the Baha'i scriptures.

There have been other changes as well, but one example serves to make the point.

I might say, "Every religion has its Day (or its Age, if you like)."

The Baha'i Faith, too, will eventually be superceded because God continually reveals new teachings and laws suited to humanity's needs and abilities in each Age! Religion is an ever-evolving thing, and God's Grace and Bounty (including His Divine Guidance to humanity) will never cease!

Best,

Bruce

 

[TashaN]

How are you my friend, glad you are back.

Abu Baqr supervised a council of Muslim scholars--all of whom had heard the Qur'an recited before them and committed it to memory. They completed after several years the project of determining what is Qur'anic and what is not.

Actually, it was only for 15 months but not for several years.

In my opinion, this is quite similar to the Council of Nicaea, though Abu Baaqr's project was graced by those who had actually heard the Prophet speak.

Sorry Popey but this is so dangerous to believe so about the Quran and i thought you know that better than me.

The Council of Nicaea came up with the trinity but can you tell me what the early rightous Muslims added to the Quran?

Do you still believe it's the same thing?

Here is a good thread about the Council of Nicaea.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20512&highlight=Council+Nicaea

Once this Qur'an was completed, Abu Baqr, in his authority as Caliph disseminated the document all over the Islamic world with directions that all other versions were to be destroyed lest confusion and division might reign.

Abu baqar didn't burn nothing, you should have been confused with Othman.

There are indeed differences in the versions.

Add to this the simple fact that since the Abu Baqr version of the Qur'an was pronouced the alphabet has changed with the addition of diacriticals to designate vowels that was never present in the original versions and there is room for some uncertainty.

This uncertainty has created a great deal of furor in the Islamic world.

Can you back up this claim with any evidence please.

This change in alphabet is largely the cause of the disagreement over the word "khataam" and indicates a different symbology for the phrase "Seal of the Prophets" may be more accurate than the traditional very strict definition of the phrase.

I disagree with you.

Well, no offence but, that what the followers of Baha'i faith should believe in, in order to prove their faith.

 

[TashaN]

The Qur'an did not "supercede" the Injeel.

Believe it or not, it did.

In the same sense the Baha`i sacred writings re-illuminate the sacred text which preceded it.

Whatever the name is, The Qur'an doesn't have been -superceded or re-illuminate- by any book through the history, and it will not be so, even in the future till the judgment day.

Until now i see no reason to make you believe otherwise.

 

[TashaN]

Surah Six (The Cattle) (Pickthall, tr) verse 157:
"157 Or lest ye should say: If the Scripture had been revealed unto us, we surely had been better guided than are they. Now hath there come unto you a clear proof from your Lord, a guidance and mercy; and who doeth greater wrong than he who denieth the revelations of Allah, and turneth away from them ? We award unto those who turn away from Our revelations an evil doom because of their aversion."

17 Is he (to be counted equal with them) who relieth on a clear proof from his Lord, and a witness from Him reciteth it, and before it was the Book of Moses, an example and a mercy ? Such believe therein, and whoso disbelieveth therein of the clans, the Fire is his appointed place. So be not thou in doubt concerning it. Lo! it is the Truth from thy Lord; but most of mankind believe not.
(The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura 11 - Hud)

43 And We sent not (as Our messengers) before thee other than men whom We inspired - Ask the followers of the Remembrance if ye know not! -
44 With clear proofs and writings; and We have revealed unto thee the Remembrance that thou mayst explain to mankind that which hath been revealed for them, and that haply they may reflect.
(The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura 16 - The Bee)

43 And We sent not (as Our messengers) before thee other than men whom We inspired - Ask the followers of the Remembrance if ye know not! -
44 With clear proofs and writings; and We have revealed unto thee the Remembrance that thou mayst explain to mankind that which hath been revealed for them, and that haply they may reflect.
(The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura 16 - The Bee)

Meaning?

From Baha`u'llah comes the explanation of Surah 2, verse 23:

"In another passage He likewise saith: "And if ye be in doubt as to that which We have sent down to Our Servant, then produce a Surah like it, and summon your witnesses, beside God, if ye are men 205 of truth."[1] Behold, how lofty is the station, and how consummate the virtue, of these verses which He hath declared to be His surest testimony, His infallible proof, the evidence of His all-subduing power, and a revelation of the potency of His will. He, the divine King, hath proclaimed the undisputed supremacy of the verses of His Book over all things that testify to His truth. For compared with all other proofs and tokens, the divinely-revealed verses shine as the sun, whilst all others are as stars. To the peoples of the world they are the abiding testimony, the incontrovertible proof, the shining light of the ideal King. Their excellence is unrivalled, their virtue nothing can surpass. They are the treasury of the divine pearls and the depository of the divine mysteries. They constitute the indissoluble Bond, the firm Cord, the Urvatu'l-Vuthqa, the inextinguishable Light. Through them floweth the river of divine knowledge, and gloweth the fire of His ancient and consummate wisdom. This is the fire which, in one and the same moment, kindleth the flame of love in the breasts of the faithful, and induceth the chill of heedlessness in the heart of the enemy."
[1 Qur'án 2:23.]
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 204)

Sorry Popey as you know my english is not well so could you please explain for me in your own words what do you mean by this?

"25 And if they deny thee, those before them also denied. Their messengers came unto them with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), and with the Psalms and the Scripture giving light."

So?

You mean Baha'ulah came with clear proofs?

 

[TashaN]

Muhammad says Abraham was a Muslim, after all.

Seriously guys :cover: , i have been telling you that Quran is not Mohammed's words but the word of God. Nevetheless, Almost all of the Baha'i faith keep telling me when they quote the Quran, Mohammed said .. Mohammed said ....

Is it because Bah'ulah was speaking by his name when he wrote the baha'i scripture so by default, in your dectorine, you believe Prophet Mohammed wrote the Quran as well?

What does "Muslim" actually mean? It means "One Who Submits to the Will of God".

And abide with the Islamic ruling and rituals and to not change things in it (from an islamic point of veiw).

 

[TashaN]

Yes; that's correct. Baha'u'llah was born a Muslim and later founded the Baha'i Faith, just as Jesus was born a Jew and later founded Christianity!

Sorry to disagree with you, Jesus wasn't the founder of Christianity. It was later on after he was ascended to heaven.

Hi!



(I see someone else doesn't especially like the word "superceded," but I'm not going to get into semantic quibbling over this. Here's the point, and the reason why this happens

We Baha'is believe in what's called Progressive Revelation.

This means that there is no "last," final Revelation from God, but rather that God continually sends humanity new laws and teachings as we need them due to the gradual growth in our capabilities and understanding.

(And to dispose of this before it's raised, there are three different answers that explain the verse in the Qur'an speaking of Muhammad as the Seal of the prophets, which we Baha'is accept as true:

- First, the Qur'anic word translated as "prophets" is "nabi"--meaning minot prophets, not "Ras'ul"--which would mean major Divine Messengers! So Muhammad is the Seal of the minor prophets.

- Second, there is a sense in which EVERY Divine Messenger is the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End, the Alpha and the Omega, and the Seal.

- And finally, the word commonly translated as "seal" also means "ornament," so it's entirely possible that this verse simply says that Muhammad is the Ornament of the prophets--nothing whatever about any sort of finish!)

To continue about Progressive Revelation, there are two sorts of religious teachings:

- Spiritual teachings are permanent and universal (though sometimes expressed in different wordings); these are found in all the great religions. Examples are "there is a God," "you're here for a reason," "don't murder," etc..

- Social teachings, in contrast, are INTENTIONALLY temporary, and any Divine Messenger can alter or abolish any of them in a later Age (though we humans cannot). Examples include laws about prayer, marriage and divorce, fasting, etc..

So in the Baha'i view, God has yet again sent teachings and laws to meet humanity's needs today! And He will continue to do so forever.

Thus, religion evolves over time just as creation does....

And in fact, we see ALL the great religions as successive stages in a single evolving faith, the Faith of God!

I hope this helps answer your question.

Best,

Bruce

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Islam mean something along the lines of "Submission unto God"? If so, doesn't that mean that other faiths are Islamic in essence?

I believe we discussed about this in details before in these links below. Just, not to hijack the main OP for this thread.

Which prophets do Baha'I's recognize?

Baha'i and UU!

Do you believe that Baha`u'llah is Jesus Christ?

As for the miracles of the Bab and Baha-u-llah, we don't really talk about them (we believe that miracles should only serve to reaffirm a faith and as proof to those who were there to witness them, not proof to anyone else), but they did happen. You hear about a few when you go on pilgramage and such, but I think the biggest miracle that I can bring to mind at the moment is the martyrdom of the Bab. That was nothing short of impressive.

If this is the case, many people can claim to be prophets, don't you think so?

As one obvious example, AS REVEALED, both Christianity and Islam permitted slavery.

I don't know that much about slavery in Christianity but in Islam, God offered us a perfect law for all aspects of life (including the social law) which makes it a comperhensive religion but not a message for a couple of years.

Islam was encouraging refreeing slaves in so many places in the Quran and the Sunnah because the teaching of Islam is perfect. That's why it was away to end the slavery step by step as in the case with alcohol when God at first said that it's evil is much greater than the benefits, then God in the second step instructed them not to pray while they are drunk, then at the final step, it was forbidden. The same can be said with slavery.

Most of Muslims at the time of prophet Mohammed were fighting slavery as it's proved in the history.

 

[maro]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Islam mean something along the lines of "Submission unto God"? If so, doesn't that mean that other faiths are Islamic in essence?

u are wrong

Islam means , submitting to Allah , the way he ordered us (not as everyone wishes)

it has conditions and rules , and that's why it's called Submission

u may take a look on that

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/pillars/shahadah/shahadahprereq.html