Who wrote the Quran, and is it infallible ?

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Brother Truth,

I understand that the weight of tradition in Islam proclaims this interpretation of "Seal". But the weight of tradition is not in itself proof of anything. It was the weight of tradition which caused the Sanhedrin to deny Jesus, and it was the weight of tradition that caused the Hebrews and the Christians to deny Muhammad.

wrong it was arrogance and refusal to accept the message is why they deny them both respectively.

The Baha`i Faith is indeed independent. It is also, indeed linked to the Apostles Who preceded the establishment of the Bab and Baha`u'llah.


Baha`u'llah writes this in the Kitab'i Iqan, it is actually speaking of the Bab, since the Iqan predates Baha`u'llah's own Announcement; but it is reiterated in other Tablets of Baha`u'llah in reference to Himself.

funny none of this is mentioned in the hadeeths. where is it from.

"Amongst the proofs demonstrating the truth of this Revelation is this, that in every age and Dispensation, whenever the invisible Essence was revealed in the person of His Manifestation, certain souls, obscure and detached from all worldly entanglements, would seek illumination from the Sun of Prophethood and Moon of divine guidance, and would attain unto the divine Presence. For this 222 reason, the divines of the age and those possessed of wealth, would scorn and scoff at these people. Even as He hath revealed concerning them that erred: "Then said the chiefs of His people who believed not, 'We see in Thee but a man like ourselves; and we see not any who have followed Thee except our meanest ones of hasty judgment, nor see we any excellence in you above ourselves: nay, we deem you liars.'"[1] They caviled at those holy Manifestations, and protested saying: "None hath followed you except the abject amongst us, those who are worthy of no attention." Their aim was to show that no one amongst the learned, the wealthy, and the renowned believed in them. By this and similar proofs they sought to demonstrate the falsity of Him that speaketh naught but the truth.
[1 Qur'án 11:27.]
In this most resplendent Dispensation, however, this most mighty Sovereignty, a number of illumined divines, of men of consummate learning, of doctors of mature wisdom, have attained unto His Court, drunk the cup of His divine Presence, and been invested with the honour of His most excellent favour. They have renounced, for the sake of the Beloved, the world and all that is therein. We 223 will mention the names of some of them, that perchance it may strengthen the faint-hearted, and encourage the timorous.
Among them was Mulla Husayn, who became the recipient of the effulgent glory of the Sun of divine Revelation. But for him, God would not have been established upon the seat of His mercy, nor ascended the throne of eternal glory. Among them also was Siyyid Yahya, that unique and peerless figure of his age,
Mulla Muhammad Aliy-i-Zanjani
Mulla Aliy-i-Bastami
Mulla Sa'id-i-Barfurushi
Mulla Ni'matu'llah-i-Mazindarani
Mulla Yusuf-i-Ardibili
Mulla Mihdiy-i-Khu'i
Siyyid Husayn-i-Turshizi
Mulla Mihdiy-i-Kandi
Mulla Baqir
Mulla Abdu'l-Khaliq-i-Yazdi
Mulla Aliy-i-Baraqani
and others, well nigh four hundred in number, whose names are all inscribed upon the "Guarded Tablet" of God.
All these were guided by the light of that Sun of divine Revelation, confessed and acknowledged His truth. Such was their faith, that most of them renounced their substance and kindred, and 224 cleaved to the good-pleasure of the All-Glorious. They laid down their lives for their Well-Beloved, and surrendered their all in His path. Their breasts were made targets for the darts of the enemy, and their heads adorned the spears of the infidel."
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 221)

We are not in contention in anyway, uet our interpretations differ. That's as God wills it, I suppose. Hopefully God also wills that our discussions should strike sparks of light for both of us and for any who follow it.

Regards,
Scott

The reason you are in contention is because you accept something other than what the Messenger Muhammed brought. You accept something new and invented after the messenger. where is your evidence from the Quran and sunnah that any of this is True islam and not bidah.

 

[Popeyesays]

Oh C'mon Popey, don't play now on the cord of emotions. You know well that i'm not talking about the Islamic tradition but about PLAIN ARABIC TERMS.



I see no links in here except some claims here and there, and an entire faith (Baha'i faith) based on one word "khatam" (according to you), which turned to be wrong after all as i proved it to you.



Amen.

Well, plain ENGLISH text is quite capable of multiple interpretations. Arabic, as a language, is even more richly textured than English (from what I can tell without any ability to read or speak freely in that language) and must be as prone to multiple interpretation as English.

The flaw is not in the LANGUAGE in whichthe Word of God is declared, it is in the interpretation of that language. This is in line with the purpose of our creation. That we must hear, interpret and understand on our own merits to make our own unique decisions to accept God's word and submit.

The proof of the Baha`i claim to be the Word of God revealed is not in the words themselves but in the ear of the listener. What one man accepts and another man accepts is between that individual and God, so in the presence of God he may say. "Lord this is the choice I made." or "Lord, I just couldn't make up my own mind."

The best 'proof' of the Qur'an is the Qur'an itself. The best 'proof' of the Baha`i Revelation is the utterance of Baha`u'llah Himself.

That, I firmly believe is the Will of God, that responsibility to choose.

I think we can both agree to that last sentence in the long run. I pray daily using these words:
"I bear witness, O my God, that Thou hast created me to know Thee and to worship Thee. I testify at this moment to my powerlessness and to Thy might, to my poverty and to Thy wealth. There is none other God but Thee, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting."

I think we agree on what the purpose of existence is, when we come right down to the bone of the issue.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

wrong it was arrogance and refusal to accept the message is why they deny them both respectively.

funny none of this is mentioned in the hadeeths. where is it from.

Well, I can tell you did not bother to read all the way through or you would have seen the citation of the quote. It's from the Kitab'i Iqan (Book of Certitude).

The reason you are in contention is because you accept something other than what the Messenger Muhammed brought. You accept something new and invented after the messenger. where is your evidence from the Quran and sunnah that any of this is True islam and not bidah.

Where in the Injeel is the evidence that the Qur'an is not bidah? Where in the Torah? Where in the Writings of the Parsees?

Each of the Messengers made His claim and called upon the decision of those who listened. The choice was theirs individually.

As to your comment about the Jews, it was the weight of tradition that gave them any stubborness they might have had. Just as listening to the clergy of any other of the past revelations and substituting it for your own decision has caused many to deny the Baha`i revelation.

You want proof and the 'proof' is the Word Itself. You won't find any other.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

""And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam , it will never be accepted of him ,and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers "

About the Miracles of the prophet (pbuh)

first , the Quran itself is the greatest miracle which proves his prophecy

(and u can find many books , and sites on that )

But yet , the prophet (pbuh) had other miracles,
and although we didn't see them , we ( as muslims ) believe in those mentioned in the quran and al Hadith

for example,
when the people of Makka requested the prophet to show them a miracle , he (pbuh) showed them the splitting of the moon

Sura 54 , Verses 1-2

and the miracle of ( al isra wa al Meraj )

Sura 17 :1
"

Abraham practiced Islam, because He submitted to the Will of God, so did Moses, Jesus, Zoroaster, Noah, Hud, Salih, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha`u'llah. Islam (submitting to the Will of God) is indeed the religion of God.

I have no reason to doubt that Muhammad split the moon in some fashion or other, because the Qur'an records it.

Baha`u'llah was asked to perform a miracle by a council of imams in Karbila, they sent a representative to Him to make the request. He said He would, but they had to agree upon what miracle they might ask, and they had to agree that when the miracle was observed, they would state their public belief in the Revelation of God brought forward by Baha`u'llah. After months in council they would not agree to either condition.

The deputy came to report the sad state of affairs to Baha`u'llah and became a Baha`i on the spot.

Regards,

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Well, I can tell you did not bother to read all the way through or you would have seen the citation of the quote. It's from the Kitab'i Iqan (Book of Certitude).

I did read it and my response was to why the Messengership of Issa and Muhammed were denied by the people.

What does this have to do with islam? this Kita'i Iqan

Where in the Injeel is the evidence that the Qur'an is not bidah? Where in the Torah? Where in the Writings of the Parsees?

what do you mean exactly? where are they. Physically?

Each of the Messengers made His claim and called upon the decision of those who listened. The choice was theirs individually.

As to your comment about the Jews, it was the weight of tradition that gave them any stubborness they might have had. Just as listening to the clergy of any other of the past revelations and substituting it for your own decision has caused many to deny the Baha`i revelation.

As I said arrogance.

You want proof and the 'proof' is the Word Itself. You won't find any other.

Regards,
Scott

No we have the proof, it is the Quran and authentic sunnah.

We need nothing else.

 

[Popeyesays]

I did read it and my response was to why the Messengership of Issa and Muhammed were denied by the people.

What does this have to do with islam? this Kita'i Iqan

At the pain of quoting myself, "Each of the Messengers made His claim and called upon the decision of those who listened. The choice was theirs individually.

As to your comment about the Jews, it was the weight of tradition that gave them any stubborness they might have had. Just as listening to the clergy of any other of the past revelations and substituting it for your own decision has caused many to deny the Baha`i revelation."

what do you mean exactly? where are they. Physically? Where are the verses--physically?

They are not there the Torah does not mention the Injeel nor the Qur'an, the Gospel does not mention the Qur'an.

As I said arrogance.

Yes, the arrogance of the clergy denied the Jews and the Christians the opportunity to recognize Muhammad. Just as the arrogance of the mullaheen denied Muslims the opportunity to recognize the Bab and Baha`u'llah.

No we have the proof, it is the Quran and authentic sunnah.

We need nothing else.

Is that an example of arrogance offered for the argument's sake?

Regards,
Scott

 

[TashaN]

Hi there popey, long time no see. How is everything with you?

They are not there the Torah does not mention the Injeel nor the Qur'an, the Gospel does not mention the Qur'an.

Usually the scriptures mention the prophet, the warner, but not the book. The prophicies of Mohammed are there in the Torah and Injil but there is nothing about Bab or Baha`u'llah in the Quran, plus that prophet Mohammed told us that no faith will be born and no Prophet or Apostle will be sent after him.

Just as the arrogance of the mullaheen denied Muslims the opportunity to recognize the Bab and Baha`u'llah.

Maybe that's for the minority Shi'ite but there is no such thing in Islam as Mulla because there is no clergy in Islam as you know.

 

[Popeyesays]

Hi there popey, long time no see. How is everything with you?



Usually the scriptures mention the prophet, the warner, but not the book. The prophicies of Mohammed are there in the Torah and Injil but there is nothing about Bab or Baha`u'llah in the Quran, plus that prophet Mohammed told us that no faith will be born and no Prophet or Apostle will be sent after him.



Maybe that's for the minority Shi'ite but there is no such thing in Islam as Mulla because there is no clergy in Islam as you know.

I am well, brother, and sincerely hope you and yours are as well. I found it very sad that the Egyptian government did not allow Baha`i' citizens of Egypt to obtain citizenship papers and ID cards if they are Baha`i'. This prevents them from marrying, obtaining work, voting and exercising their rights as citizens. It is against Baha`i law to practice deception in religion, so they are severely discriminated against now.

As to many things, we disagree, but we can agree to let God sort it all out in the end. "He doeth as He pleaseth."

Is the revelation of the Bab, in particular the name of the Bayan foretold in the Qur'an? I believe it is.

As I best understand it:
qur'an: recital
qur'an-ahu: its recital
bayan: to make clear or explanation
bayan-ahu: to make it clear or to explain it.

There is no way to tell in Arabic the difference between a proper noun and a simple noun, there being no capitalization in the script. So context is very important in determining a proper noun.

First four verses of Surah 55 (The Ressurection)
"The God of mercy
Hath taught the Koran
Hath created man
Hath taught him articulate speech
(Rodwell)

The All-merciful
Has taught the Koran
He created man
And he has taught him the Explanation
(Arberry)

The Beneficent
Hath made known the Qur'an
He hath created man
He hath taught him utterance
(Pickthall)

(God) Most Gracious
It is He who hath taught the Qur'an
He has created man
He has taught him speech (and Intelligence)
(Yusuf 'Ali)

English translation dealt with the Arabic "quran" by simply using it as a Proper Noun, but the translators did not understand how to deal with "explanation" or "utterance" "Evidence", so they present it as a simple noun, except for Arberry. "Bayan" or "The Explanation" is the name of the Book revealed by God through the Bab.

A chronology of revelation is also recorded in the Qur'an to show that the "Clear Evidence", "Explanation", Utterance", Bayan will come after the Qur'an.

Surah 98 "Clear Evidence"

The unbelievers among
the people of the
Book, and the Polytheists,
did not waver, until the
CLEAR EVIDENCE had
come to them;

A Messenger from God,
reciting to them the pure
pages wherein are
true Scriptures!

Neither were they to whom
the Scriptures were given
divided into sects, till after
this clear evidence
had reached them!

Corrected translation:

The unbelievers among the
people of the Book,
and the polytheists,
shall not waver until the
Clear Evidence comes
to them,

An Apostle from God, reciting
pure pages wherein are
valuable Books.

Nor were the people of the
Book divided until after
the Clear Evidence came to
them.

​

Yusuf Ali contends that the use of future tense in the last of these verses refers to Muhammad who was already there. This is because the interpreters cannot justify the use of future tense with the concept that Muhammad is the LAST Apostle. The translators are thus thrown into alliance with this point of view. I would contend that is not correct, but the use of the future tense implies an Apostle with a Book yet to come.

Veils separate us from understanding, some of those veils are God giving us the mystery of choice and free will, others we invent for ourselves.

It's part of God's Grace that we have the nature to investigate, seek understanding and even disagree amongst ourselves. God will make it clear when we stand before His mercy and judgement. May His Mercy be as infinite as His Justice for us all.

Regards,
Scott

 

[TashaN]

I am well, brother, and sincerely hope you and yours are as well. I found it very sad that the Egyptian government did not allow Baha`i' citizens of Egypt to obtain citizenship papers and ID cards if they are Baha`i'. This prevents them from marrying, obtaining work, voting and exercising their rights as citizens. It is against Baha`i law to practice deception in religion, so they are severely discriminated against now.

Sorry but this is off-topic and i can discuss it with you somewhere else but not in this thread.

Is the revelation of the Bab, in particular the name of the Bayan foretold in the Qur'an? I believe it is.

You have to go for the context to understand that Allah was talking about his creatures and how he taught them.

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
[1] (Allah) Most Gracious!

[2] It is He Who has taught the Qur-an.

[3] He has created man:

[4] He has taught him speech (and Intelligence).

[5] The sun and the moon follow courses (exactly) computed;

[6] And the herbs and the trees both (alike) bow in adoration.

[7] And the Firmament has He raised high, and He has set up the Balance (of Justice),

[8] In order that ye may not transgress (due) balance.

[9] So establish weight with justice and fall not short in the balance.

[10] It is He Who has spread out the earth for (His) creatures:

I have no reason to believe that there is a mentioning for any prophet or faith after Mohammed and our religion "Islam". Prophet Mohammed also already told us there will be no prophet or Apostle after him nor there will be a new faith to be born. Crystal clear for Muslims.

A chronology of revelation is also recorded in the Qur'an to show that the "Clear Evidence", "Explanation", Utterance", Bayan will come after the Qur'an.

Surah 98 "Clear Evidence"

Corrected translation:

Corrected by whom?

Yusuf Ali contends that the use of future tense in the last of these verses refers to Muhammad who was already there. This is because the interpreters cannot justify the use of future tense with the concept that Muhammad is the LAST Apostle. The translators are thus thrown into alliance with this point of view. I would contend that is not correct, but the use of the future tense implies an Apostle with a Book yet to come.

I have doubt that Yusuf Ali would claim such thing because he used to look into the Tafser. Also, i don't know what do you mean by a future tense because i don't see it !!!

It's part of God's Grace that we have the nature to investigate

There is no need to investigate somthing which have been decided already and been clear as the sun unless we just want to argue for the sake of proving somthing which doesn't exist except in our mind and vain desires.

 

[Popeyesays]

There is no need to investigate somthing which have been decided already and been clear as the sun unless we just want to argue for the sake of proving somthing which doesn't exist except in our mind and vain desires.

It seems to me this is exactly the frame of mind held by the Sanhedrin as they stood in judgment of Jesus, or the Jews and Christians of Arabia when they attempted to judge Muhammad. "Islam" is the Religion of God. It was expressed according to the behest of God by Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Zoroaster and others. It's my opinion that "Islam" is meant to be continued into the future as other Prophets come to express the Religion of God at God's behest. The sermons of Ali ibn abu Talib express the warning that the Imam Mahdi will be rejected by the leaders of Islam when the time would come for His appearance.

Regards,
Scott

 

[TashaN]

It seems to me this is exactly the frame of mind held by the Sanhedrin as they stood in judgment of Jesus, or the Jews and Christians of Arabia when they attempted to judge Muhammad.

This is only what it seems to you dear Popey because you can't prove any of your claims to me. You are most welcome anytime when you can and you know it. Always when you fail to prove any of your claims you then go in the usual argument that we will never know, God knows, etc. While it's true that God knows everything but he won't leave us in doubt, guessing, and wondering what is right and what is wrong because in Islam everything is clear as the sun for those who are willing to see with a fair eye but not with a locked heart. You yourself told me many times in many threads that no one can change your mind about Baha'i faith and you just love to discuss it. It's hard for others to share your thoughts and believe in them when you keep telling them that whatever proof they bring so it won't matter while you try hard as i can see to prove your faith to me from my own scripture and ask me to believe in it.

my opinion that "Islam" is meant to be continued into the future as other Prophets come to express the Religion of God at God's behest.

Opinions of mere human beings doesn't matter to me as long as i have the truth from God in his Quran and the Sunnah of prophet Mohammed which we will never be misguided if we followed them.

The sermons of Ali ibn abu Talib express the warning that the Imam Mahdi will be rejected by the leaders of Islam when the time would come for His appearance.

We are waiting for him to appear, but he won't announce another faith rather than Islam , not even Jesus will do so when he comes again. Both of them will be just Muslims.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33950

 

[Popeyesays]

Please, brother--it is not up to me to prove anything to you. I do not attempt to do so, ever. Nor do I believe that you are attempting to change my mind. The difficulty of the struggle is never to convince another of anything, it is only to answer for one's own choice.

Real regards for your own struggle--
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

<We are waiting for him to appear, but he won't announce another faith rather than Islam , not even Jesus will do so when he comes again. Both of them will be just Muslims. >

The Sanhedrin said they waited for the Messiah. Their choice to ignore God's Messiah for the anticipation of One Who suited them better was the problem.

Jesus when He came the first time was just a Muslim. The Bab -- in my own view -- was just a Muslim as was Baha`u'llah. Abraham submitted to God's Will, but it was not God's Will for Him to reveal the Qur'an, it was His Will that He should reveal the Scrolls.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

At the pain of quoting myself, "Each of the Messengers made His claim and called upon the decision of those who listened. The choice was theirs individually.

why are you restating something that is known and already clarified.

As to your comment about the Jews, it was the weight of tradition that gave them any stubborness they might have had. Just as listening to the clergy of any other of the past revelations and substituting it for your own decision has caused many to deny the Baha`i revelation."

again as I said it was arrogance why are you restating what I have already mentioned.

They are not there the Torah does not mention the Injeel nor the Qur'an, the Gospel does not mention the Qur'an.

How can it be mentioned when the Torah or book given to Moses does not exist anymore the same with the Injeel. these were revealed books but since the corruption done to them by the Jews and christians they do not exist anymore. So verifying anything is an impossibitity unless you have a criterion to measure it by. we cannot measure it off of what they have because they have changed it so it is no longer what was given by Allah.

Yes, the arrogance of the clergy denied the Jews and the Christians the opportunity to recognize Muhammad. Just as the arrogance of the mullaheen denied Muslims the opportunity to recognize the Bab and Baha`u'llah.

No it is statements of the Quran which will not allow true muslims to accept the prophethood of anyone other than the Messenger.

Is that an example of arrogance offered for the argument's sake?

No it is just a way of saying the information in those books like the torah and Injeel is no longer in existence and cannot be used as a reference so we have the Quran and Allah says they will stay with us till the Day of Judgment. so from our belief we have no need of any other books.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

I am well, brother, and sincerely hope you and yours are as well. I found it very sad that the Egyptian government did not allow Baha`i' citizens of Egypt to obtain citizenship papers and ID cards if they are Baha`i'. This prevents them from marrying, obtaining work, voting and exercising their rights as citizens. It is against Baha`i law to practice deception in religion, so they are severely discriminated against now.

As to many things, we disagree, but we can agree to let God sort it all out in the end. "He doeth as He pleaseth."

Is the revelation of the Bab, in particular the name of the Bayan foretold in the Qur'an? I believe it is.

As I best understand it:
qur'an: recital
qur'an-ahu: its recital
bayan: to make clear or explanation
bayan-ahu: to make it clear or to explain it.

There is no way to tell in Arabic the difference between a proper noun and a simple noun, there being no capitalization in the script. So context is very important in determining a proper noun.

First four verses of Surah 55 (The Ressurection)
"The God of mercy
Hath taught the Koran
Hath created man
Hath taught him articulate speech
(Rodwell)

The All-merciful
Has taught the Koran
He created man
And he has taught him the Explanation
(Arberry)

The Beneficent
Hath made known the Qur'an
He hath created man
He hath taught him utterance
(Pickthall)

(God) Most Gracious
It is He who hath taught the Qur'an
He has created man
He has taught him speech (and Intelligence)
(Yusuf 'Ali)

English translation dealt with the Arabic "quran" by simply using it as a Proper Noun, but the translators did not understand how to deal with "explanation" or "utterance" "Evidence", so they present it as a simple noun, except for Arberry. "Bayan" or "The Explanation" is the name of the Book revealed by God through the Bab.

A chronology of revelation is also recorded in the Qur'an to show that the "Clear Evidence", "Explanation", Utterance", Bayan will come after the Qur'an.

Surah 98 "Clear Evidence"

The unbelievers among
the people of the
Book, and the Polytheists,
did not waver, until the
CLEAR EVIDENCE had
come to them;

A Messenger from God,
reciting to them the pure
pages wherein are
true Scriptures!

Neither were they to whom
the Scriptures were given
divided into sects, till after
this clear evidence
had reached them!

Corrected translation:

The unbelievers among the
people of the Book,
and the polytheists,
shall not waver until the
Clear Evidence comes
to them,

An Apostle from God, reciting
pure pages wherein are
valuable Books.

Nor were the people of the
Book divided until after
the Clear Evidence came to
them.

​

Yusuf Ali contends that the use of future tense in the last of these verses refers to Muhammad who was already there. This is because the interpreters cannot justify the use of future tense with the concept that Muhammad is the LAST Apostle. The translators are thus thrown into alliance with this point of view. I would contend that is not correct, but the use of the future tense implies an Apostle with a Book yet to come.

Veils separate us from understanding, some of those veils are God giving us the mystery of choice and free will, others we invent for ourselves.

It's part of God's Grace that we have the nature to investigate, seek understanding and even disagree amongst ourselves. God will make it clear when we stand before His mercy and judgement. May His Mercy be as infinite as His Justice for us all.

Regards,
Scott

You need the tafsir for the proper context you cannot get it yourself. You need the reference of the hadith and the opinion of the companions from the statement of the prophet.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

It seems to me this is exactly the frame of mind held by the Sanhedrin as they stood in judgment of Jesus, or the Jews and Christians of Arabia when they attempted to judge Muhammad.

what frame of mind.

Zoroaster

He is not a prophet of Islam if what they say about him is true.

It's my opinion that "Islam" is meant to be continued into the future

What do you mean by that islam. there is only one Islam. I am not sure I follow you.

 

[Popeyesays]

"No it is just a way of saying the information in those books like the torah and Injeel is no longer in existence and cannot be used as a reference so we have the Quran and Allah says they will stay with us till the Day of Judgment. so from our belief we have no need of any other books."

Indeed, and the Day of Judgement was May 23, 1844 about two hours after sunset.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

what frame of mind.

He is not a prophet of Islam if what they say about him is true.

What do you mean by that islam. there is only one Islam. I am not sure I follow you.

The followers of Zoroaster are indeed People of the Book, according to the Qur'an Itself, so you would be violating the command of the Prophet not to consider Zoroaster an Apostle of God.

Regards,
Scott

 

[XAAX]

wrong it was arrogance and refusal to accept the message is why they deny them both respectively.

funny none of this is mentioned in the hadeeths. where is it from.

The reason you are in contention is because you accept something other than what the Messenger Muhammed brought. You accept something new and invented after the messenger. where is your evidence from the Quran and sunnah that any of this is True islam and not bidah.

Brother Truth,
I understand that the weight of tradition in Islam proclaims this interpretation of "Seal". But the weight of tradition is not in itself proof of anything. It was the weight of tradition which caused the Sanhedrin to deny Jesus, and it was the weight of tradition that caused the Hebrews and the Christians to deny Muhammad.

It is amusing to watch the blind argue that the part of the elephant they are holding one too is the whole elephant...

 

[Popeyesays]

"holding one too"

Did you mean "holding on to"?

It's an apt simile. If the religion of God is an elephant the Muslims might be holding on to the foot, and the Christians to the Tail, the Jews to the trunk, and everyone else to different parts, and still be holding on to something entirely different from one another.

In that sense the quibble is justifiable. One does have to stand back and see the elephant as a whole to know that the people closely examing the parts are missing the whole. The religion of God is ONE. It takes man to quibble about it.

Regards,
Scott