Who wrote the Quran, and is it infallible ?

[Mujahid Mohammed]

It is amusing to watch the blind argue that the part of the elephant they are holding one too is the whole elephant...

Show us the light then brother if you see so well. If we are blind what truth do you have that will give guidance.

And your analogy of religion to a elephant is not sufficient and cannot include true islam in the equation.

All the other religions have a man god or female diety representing the faith. whereas Allah is neither. You cannot put a religion that has no idols or symbols in same category as those who do. Scholars do not even join them together.

Since there is only one God, all religions are not a part of the same thing. there is only one God so there is only one path and one true religion which He has prescibed on mankind. everything else is made up and false. there is only one God worthy of worship and it is Allah, the same God that even the Arab Christians call on. the same God of the Jews, the only God, the Creator of the Heavens and Earth whose knowledge of the creation is complete. And Muhammed is his last and final messenger.

 

[TashaN]

The difficulty of the struggle is never to convince another of anything, it is only to answer for one's own choice.

So you mean that you are just trying to justify why you chose your own way?

Did i ask about it?

You know well what are my views but you keep telling the same story all over and over. Any reason for doing so rather than the attempt to convience the others about things you want them to believe in as you do so?

The Sanhedrin said they waited for the Messiah. Their choice to ignore God's Messiah for the anticipation of One Who suited them better was the problem.

We are not talking about Jesus but about Al-Mahdi. Therefore, if you have any proof that the Mahdi is already there so produce your evidence from my scriptures, clear and simple.

 

[Popeyesays]

So you mean that you are just trying to justify why you chose your own way?

Did i ask about it?

You know well what are my views but you keep telling the same story all over and over. Any reason for doing so rather than the attempt to convience the others about things you want them to believe in as you do so?



We are not talking about Jesus but about Al-Mahdi. Therefore, if you have any proof that the Mahdi is already there so produce your evidence from my scriptures, clear and simple.

Please don't be irritated. I do not seek to make you angry, and I do not wish to challenge your beliefs.

"4. Praise be to Him Who hath made the world of being, and hath fashioned all that is, Him Who hath raised up the sincere to a station of honour [1] and hath made the invisible world to appear on the plane of the visible -- yet still, in their drunken stupor,[2] do men wander and stray.
[1 Qur'án 17:81]
[2 Qur'án 15:72]
He hath laid down the foundations of the lofty Citadel, He hath inaugurated the Cycle of Glory, He hath brought forth a new creation on this day that is clearly Judgement Day -- and still do the heedless stay fast in their drunken sleep.
The Bugle [1] hath sounded, the Trumpet [2] hath been blown, the Crier hath raised his call, and all upon the earth have swooned away -- but still do the dead, in the tombs of their bodies, sleep on.
[1 Qur'án 39:68; Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 133]
[2 Qur'án 74:8] 14
And the second clarion [1] hath sounded, there hath followed the second blast after the first,[2] and the dread woe hath come, and every nursing mother hath forgot the infant at her breast [3] -- yet still the people, confused and distracted, heed it not.
[1 Qur'án 39:68]
[2 Qur'án 79:6]
[3 Qur'án 22:2]
And the Resurrection hath dawned, and the Hour hath struck, and the Path hath been drawn straight, and the Balance hath been set up, and all upon the earth have been gathered together [1] -- but still the people see no sign of the way.
[1 Qur'án 34:39]
(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 14)

The Quranic references are there. Muhammad said the Qur'an would be fulfilled by Judgement Day. The Bab and Baha`u'llah tell us that Judgement day is like unto any other when the sun rises and sets. Judgement comes upon those who spiritually slumber in their tombs (bodies).

Take it as you will, but please don't think I seek to bother you personally, it is not up to me to 'convince' anyone of anything. God picks as He chooses, not as I choose.

Regards,
Scott

 

[James the Persian]

Could i just briefly intercede with a couple of corrections which I'm pretty sure haven't been corrected on this thread?

Firstly, the process Popeyesays mentioned of ascertaining what should or should not be in the Quran is in no way a paralel to anything that happened at the Council of Nicea. As I am growing rather tired of repeating, the Council of Nicea played absolutely no part whatsoever in the determining of the Biblical canon. It wan't even discussed and the first conciliar decision (and it was only a local council at that) to even suggest our current NT canon was held at Carthage some 70 years after Nicea.

Secondly, the Council of Nicea did not invent the Trinity as someone else alleged. That concept is quite easy to trace in the writings of Ante-Nicene Fathers. What the Council did do is meet to decide once and for all whether the orthodox view of who God the Son is was correct or whether the Arian alternative was. Neither side was monist. Both sides believed that Father, Son and Holy Spirit were all divine. The only difference between them was that the orthodox position was that the Son was eternally begotten of the Father, hence had always been and was truly God (as in the Creator was the Trinity). The Arians, on the other hand argued that the Son, and by implication the Holy Spirit, was a lesser created god, that there was a time when He had not existed and, hence, their idea of the Trinity was more akin to (though not the same as) the LDS idea of the Godhead.

I see absolutely no paralel between the First Ecumenical Council and any period that I am aware of in the history of Islam.

James

 

[BruceDLimber]

Hi again!

why don't u tell us ,(x) in islam can't be applicable , and instead (y) in my religion can be applicable (other than the slavery example which brother TT , proved wrong)

No, in fact he didn't prove my statement wrong!

He danced around it, and added that Islam encouraged freeing slaves, which (please note!) in no way indicates that having slaves was forbidden!

And there's a reason why he didn't so indicate: because very simply, it WASN'T forbidden.

So my point holds.

Q. E. D..

Therefore, unless you care to endorse slavery as right and proper, I suggest you should be stipulating that yes, some laws revealed in previous religious ages do indeed undergo divine revision over time. Another good example is Jesus' amplifying certain Jewish laws in His Sermon on the Mount.

please, when u talk about what God do , and what he don't , I would appreciate bringing a verse from the quran

I understand that you would appreciate this, and I encourage you yourself to do this whenever appropriate!

As for myself, my faith is based upon the Baha'i scriptures, so it is primarily from them that I quote.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

Hi!

the bible was not revealed in english but in hebrew, so to understand the bible you must understand HEBREW....

This is true only of the Tanach (Jewish scriptures).

The (Christian) New Testament was written in Greek.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

I agree that Christianity is based on his teaching, but that doesn't mean, he "himself" is the founder of "Christianity" in its current form today.

Glad we agree, then!

Because we Baha'is haven't been talking about Christianity in its present-day form, either.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[XAAX]

Show us the light then brother if you see so well. If we are blind what truth do you have that will give guidance.

And your analogy of religion to a elephant is not sufficient and cannot include true islam in the equation.

All the other religions have a man god or female diety representing the faith. whereas Allah is neither. You cannot put a religion that has no idols or symbols in same category as those who do. Scholars do not even join them together.

Since there is only one God, all religions are not a part of the same thing. there is only one God so there is only one path and one true religion which He has prescibed on mankind. everything else is made up and false. there is only one God worthy of worship and it is Allah, the same God that even the Arab Christians call on. the same God of the Jews, the only God, the Creator of the Heavens and Earth whose knowledge of the creation is complete. And Muhammed is his last and final messenger.

In your last statement you explained exactly what I was referring to. Muhammad was a man. Nothing more than Jesus, or you and I for that matter. I like the Islamic understanding of God. You guys did get a little closer than others. Where you faulted in your religion, in my opinion, is your emphasis on any man(including Muhammad). You are no different from the Christians in that sense. Regardless of the small details that are different, you both follow a man. In that sense, you are both just as blind. So grab a hold of the elephant and carry on.(By the way, be careful where you grab, some parts are better than others... ...)

 

[mohamedhassan]

In your last statement you explained exactly what I was referring to. Muhammad was a man. Nothing more than Jesus, or you and I for that matter. I like the Islamic understanding of God. You guys did get a little closer than others. Where you faulted in your religion, in my opinion, is your emphasis on any man(including Muhammad). You are no different from the Christians in that sense. Regardless of the small details that are different, you both follow a man. In that sense, you are both just as blind. So grab a hold of the elephant and carry on.(By the way, be careful where you grab, some parts are better than others... ...)

Wow i had to read alot to get to the end!! First to refute this last post, In order to follow God you have to follow what god sends to you. Before you can begin to follow "the man" you have to first clarify if his message is the right one and if what he says is the truth. As is the case for the prophet Mohammad (saw), no person in their right mind can deny that his message is and can only be the true religion (you said that to some degree)

Now to our Bah'i friends. First of All slavery is applicable in all ages. This slavery as you well now is not the slavery of the west!! This is a job given to prisioners of war in which they are allowed to randsom themselves and their are many rules that govern it (for instance the servant can take his master to court, we've had ex-servents as kings, commanders, famous scholors) But nowhere does it state in the quran and the sunnah that we MUST TAKE SLAVES. rather it encourages us to FREE salves, so your flawed in your argument to say that some of the laws of Allah in the quran are unapplicable because salvery wasn't COMMANDED anywhere!!

Second you seem to be beating around with the definition of arabic words and thier meaning in the Quran, so i've thought of a historical way of disscussing this!

1- From the death of the prophet (saw) till the time of Bahullah what did the people use for the interpretation of the quran? Wasn't it the understanding of the Companions of the prophet that the interpretation was built on? Now to say that Bahullah came and changed the interpretation of the Quran would mean that the companions either learned it wrong or lied, and eventually the prophet (saw) lied!! [does that make sense]

2. If you are aware of the life of the prophet (saw) you will know that a man claimed prophethood at the time of the prophet (saw), named Musalamah, who wrote a letter to the prophet calling him "my brother in prophethood", the prophet (saw) wrote a letter back and called him "Musalamah the liar" which bases did he call him this [note: Musalmah had what he called a holy scripture, affirmed the prophethood of mohammad(saw), and appeared to those around him that he was recieving revealation, he was also what you might call "martyred" because he was latter killed]

3. Also if it were plausible for a prophet to come after Mohammad (saw) take into consideration the the chalipah of Abu Bakr (ra) again. when the prophet (saw) died he sent an army against the romans, and fought against 3 so called prophets. He never even asked what their message was, or what was it that was revealed to them, he went and pulverized thier armies. Why would he do this if it were possible for another prophet to come? I mean the so called prophets had so-called backing, alot of support! with out giving them the right chance Abu Bakr could have destroyed potiential prophets [note: saying that Allah sends a new prophet every 1000 years is flawed. Haroon and Musa were prophets at the same time as were Isa and Yahya]
If thier understanding was flawed at that time that would mean even the quran could have been altered (authu-billah) by Abu Bakr (ra) if he was capable of killing potiential prophets then he would be capable of doing such a crime.

Also a flaw that i noticed from your arugment was that you claimed that the bible and torah haven't been altered (contrdicting even the words of bible scholors) but there are SOOO MANY AYAH'S that say that this has occured, both implicitly and explicitly.

For example, surah Baqarah: "101. And when there came to them a Messenger from Allâh (i.e. Muhammad Peace be upon him ) confirming what was with them, a party of those who were given the Scripture threw away the Book of Allâh behind their backs as if they did not know! "

-thats actually pretty explicit and doesn't even need a muslim to tell you what this means also the hadeeth EXPLICTLY state this soooooooooooooooo many times when talking about the prophets of old. The only pure torah and injeel are known only to Allah at this time and no one has it (which even christians/jews will admit they don't have any originals)

-Lastly i kept reading "islam means surrender". islam means surrender to ALLAH the way HE WANTS you to surrounder to him (as stated clearly in surah fatiha) this doesn't make christians, jews, zorostrians, buddists, hindus etc..., muslims! this is because they havn't surrendered to Allah they way he wants them to surrounder. Also the word "muslim" is a title and not only a concept as allah says many times (its getting late and i can't search the ayahs rite now sorri!!) ".. be among the muslim", ".. You are among the muslims", and in surah hujurat ".. if two groups of Muslims quarrel...." its soo numerous the amount of times that Allah calls the believers muslims. Also yes Ibraheem(as) was a muslim, not only by belief but by name as well (what else could u call him abramaian?) as well Isa(as) wasn't christian, nor musa(as) a mosian so they were ALL MUSLIMS by name and belief, only the people after them changed it!

Anyway i hope this helps somewhat
salamualkum ya muslimeen

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

In your last statement you explained exactly what I was referring to. Muhammad was a man. Nothing more than Jesus, or you and I for that matter. I like the Islamic understanding of God. You guys did get a little closer than others. Where you faulted in your religion, in my opinion, is your emphasis on any man(including Muhammad).

There is no special emphasis placed on Muhammed, he is just a man. but a man who was chosen by God and given special qualities. His heart was much purer than yours or mine. He is an example that is it. He is the one who instructs us on how to do our religion. whereas the Christians have taken the man as their God. He is the Messenger and as such he is educating us on who Allah is. Muhammed was the closest to Allah for he praised him the most.

Now if you agree with our idea as to who is God the most, then would you agree that His command to His creation would be to worship Him?

Now if this God told you to listen to what this guy says? Would you not listen to him?

You are no different from the Christians in that sense. Regardless of the small details that are different,

The detail that is different is not small it is the centerpoint of understanding. They say Jesus is a god and should be worshipped as such. Muhammed says I am only a man telling you that God wants you to worship Him and He has given me the knowledge on how to worship Him the way He wants you to. That is a HUGE DIFFERENCE.

you both follow a man.

No they worship man. that is a major difference. We follow a man who tells us to worship the One Who Created Us.

In that sense, you are both just as blind.

What are we blind to exactly as I said earlier enlighten us to a way that is better.

So grab a hold of the elephant and carry on.(By the way, be careful where you grab, some parts are better than others... ...)

As I said Islam is not a part of that elephant. they all worship men. we worship God.

 

[TashaN]

Please don't be irritated. I do not seek to make you angry, and I do not wish to challenge your beliefs.

Don't worry dear Scott, i never get angry from such discussions. I apologize if you think i was angry or somthing. It might be just the same problem i have WITH "ENGLISHHHHHHHHHHHHH"

Regarding challenging my belief "if any did", i have nothing to fear if someone did because it's the religion of Allah and i'm just a servant.

The Quranic references are there. Muhammad said the Qur'an would be fulfilled by Judgement Day.

Where did prophet Mohammed said this?

The Bab and Baha`u'llah tell us that Judgement day is like unto any other when the sun rises and sets. Judgement comes upon those who spiritually slumber in their tombs (bodies).

Take it as you will, but please don't think I seek to bother you personally, it is not up to me to 'convince' anyone of anything. God picks as He chooses, not as I choose.

Regards,
Scott

Don't worry dear Scott, you have your beliefs and i have mine. BTW, one of your friends sent me a PM telling me that i shouldn't call you Popey. I'm sorry if i did so all this time but i just used to like it this way but your friend told me that i should call you Popeye says. I'm sorry if i did so in the past but i didn't mean to.

 

[TashaN]

No, in fact he didn't prove my statement wrong!

He danced around it, and added that Islam encouraged freeing slaves, which (please note!) in no way indicates that having slaves was forbidden!

And there's a reason why he didn't so indicate: because very simply, it WASN'T forbidden.

So my point holds.

I think the reply of brother mohamedhassan is enough, and if you want more, i can give you an example of how these things works in Islam. God don't just force people to do that or that at once because they are weak human beings so it goes step by step as what happened with alcohol when first God told them that alcohol has some benefits but it's bad side outcome the good one, then he asked them in another first in the next period not to enter to the mosque while they are drunk, then at the end it was prohibited. You can find this in the Quran and i can bring the verses for you if you want to.

So my point holds

 

[TashaN]

Wow i had to read alot to get to the end!! First to refute this last post, In order to follow God you have to follow what god sends to you. Before you can begin to follow "the man" you have to first clarify if his message is the right one and if what he says is the truth. As is the case for the prophet Mohammad (saw), no person in their right mind can deny that his message is and can only be the true religion (you said that to some degree)

Now to our Bah'i friends. First of All slavery is applicable in all ages. This slavery as you well now is not the slavery of the west!! This is a job given to prisioners of war in which they are allowed to randsom themselves and their are many rules that govern it (for instance the servant can take his master to court, we've had ex-servents as kings, commanders, famous scholors) But nowhere does it state in the quran and the sunnah that we MUST TAKE SLAVES. rather it encourages us to FREE salves, so your flawed in your argument to say that some of the laws of Allah in the quran are unapplicable because salvery wasn't COMMANDED anywhere!!

Second you seem to be beating around with the definition of arabic words and thier meaning in the Quran, so i've thought of a historical way of disscussing this!

1- From the death of the prophet (saw) till the time of Bahullah what did the people use for the interpretation of the quran? Wasn't it the understanding of the Companions of the prophet that the interpretation was built on? Now to say that Bahullah came and changed the interpretation of the Quran would mean that the companions either learned it wrong or lied, and eventually the prophet (saw) lied!! [does that make sense]

2. If you are aware of the life of the prophet (saw) you will know that a man claimed prophethood at the time of the prophet (saw), named Musalamah, who wrote a letter to the prophet calling him "my brother in prophethood", the prophet (saw) wrote a letter back and called him "Musalamah the liar" which bases did he call him this [note: Musalmah had what he called a holy scripture, affirmed the prophethood of mohammad(saw), and appeared to those around him that he was recieving revealation, he was also what you might call "martyred" because he was latter killed]

3. Also if it were plausible for a prophet to come after Mohammad (saw) take into consideration the the chalipah of Abu Bakr (ra) again. when the prophet (saw) died he sent an army against the romans, and fought against 3 so called prophets. He never even asked what their message was, or what was it that was revealed to them, he went and pulverized thier armies. Why would he do this if it were possible for another prophet to come? I mean the so called prophets had so-called backing, alot of support! with out giving them the right chance Abu Bakr could have destroyed potiential prophets [note: saying that Allah sends a new prophet every 1000 years is flawed. Haroon and Musa were prophets at the same time as were Isa and Yahya]
If thier understanding was flawed at that time that would mean even the quran could have been altered (authu-billah) by Abu Bakr (ra) if he was capable of killing potiential prophets then he would be capable of doing such a crime.

Also a flaw that i noticed from your arugment was that you claimed that the bible and torah haven't been altered (contrdicting even the words of bible scholors) but there are SOOO MANY AYAH'S that say that this has occured, both implicitly and explicitly.

For example, surah Baqarah: "101. And when there came to them a Messenger from Allâh (i.e. Muhammad Peace be upon him ) confirming what was with them, a party of those who were given the Scripture threw away the Book of Allâh behind their backs as if they did not know! "

-thats actually pretty explicit and doesn't even need a muslim to tell you what this means also the hadeeth EXPLICTLY state this soooooooooooooooo many times when talking about the prophets of old. The only pure torah and injeel are known only to Allah at this time and no one has it (which even christians/jews will admit they don't have any originals)

-Lastly i kept reading "islam means surrender". islam means surrender to ALLAH the way HE WANTS you to surrounder to him (as stated clearly in surah fatiha) this doesn't make christians, jews, zorostrians, buddists, hindus etc..., muslims! this is because they havn't surrendered to Allah they way he wants them to surrounder. Also the word "muslim" is a title and not only a concept as allah says many times (its getting late and i can't search the ayahs rite now sorri!!) ".. be among the muslim", ".. You are among the muslims", and in surah hujurat ".. if two groups of Muslims quarrel...." its soo numerous the amount of times that Allah calls the believers muslims. Also yes Ibraheem(as) was a muslim, not only by belief but by name as well (what else could u call him abramaian?) as well Isa(as) wasn't christian, nor musa(as) a mosian so they were ALL MUSLIMS by name and belief, only the people after them changed it!

Anyway i hope this helps somewhat
salamualkum ya muslimeen

Great post bro. Frubals :clap

 

[XAAX]

There is no special emphasis placed on Muhammed, he is just a man. but a man who was chosen by God and given special qualities. His heart was much purer than yours or mine. He is an example that is it. He is the one who instructs us on how to do our religion. whereas the Christians have taken the man as their God. He is the Messenger and as such he is educating us on who Allah is. Muhammed was the closest to Allah for he praised him the most.

Now if you agree with our idea as to who is God the most, then would you agree that His command to His creation would be to worship Him?

Now if this God told you to listen to what this guy says? Would you not listen to him?

The detail that is different is not small it is the centerpoint of understanding. They say Jesus is a god and should be worshipped as such. Muhammed says I am only a man telling you that God wants you to worship Him and He has given me the knowledge on how to worship Him the way He wants you to. That is a HUGE DIFFERENCE.

No they worship man. that is a major difference. We follow a man who tells us to worship the One Who Created Us.
What are we blind to exactly as I said earlier enlighten us to a way that is better.

As I said Islam is not a part of that elephant. they all worship men. we worship God.

I agree that the Islamic concept of God is one of the best, as religions go, that I have heard. If indeed that you don't worship Muhammad, but instead follow him, then yes you are a step ahead of the Christians. This is in fact where our opinions on the Universe branch. The God (Universe) I know would never send message to me through anyone other than myself. Just as everyone else would receive the same type of message through there own connection with God.
Also, I am not sure what your definition of worship is, but by mine, God does not "desire" this. Instead of worship, you are to strive to maintain the balance between positive (good) and negative (evil) within yourself and your life. Always open and exploring for more understanding. The end result isn't to go to a destination that God has created, but instead, to become one with God. To evolve into the next evolution of being.

 

[mohamedhassan]

I agree that the Islamic concept of God is one of the best, as religions go, that I have heard. If indeed that you don't worship Muhammad, but instead follow him, then yes you are a step ahead of the Christians. This is in fact where our opinions on the Universe branch. The God (Universe) I know would never send message to me through anyone other than myself. Just as everyone else would receive the same type of message through there own connection with God.
Also, I am not sure what your definition of worship is, but by mine, God does not "desire" this. Instead of worship, you are to strive to maintain the balance between positive (good) and negative (evil) within yourself and your life. Always open and exploring for more understanding. The end result isn't to go to a destination that God has created, but instead, to become one with God. To evolve into the next evolution of being.

Well it seems that you believe in a God which is a good thing. However, it seems that you are setting guidelines for God telling him what he should do. with all do respect, I interpret your post as saying "I want to worship God how I see fit NOT how he wants it" which if you look at is contradicting that fact that there is a God. This is because to say that there is a God is to say that he is the high, the MASTER and he who dictates not you.
Now the issue which you raised about that "everyone should recieve some type of message" is contradictory as well. If you go back to the fact that God does exist, and ponder WHY God created this world, and you believe in a God you will come to conclude that there exists an afterlife (a hereafter). Now the only way for God to send people to hevean or to hell is to judge the people according to if they followed the message that he sent them or not. Now if God had sent the message only to the indivduals, there would be no real reason to judge people because everyone will have accepted the truth (I may sound a bit vauge but i hope your getting the idea)
I'm not saying that people don't have in them a sense of who god is and what he wants them to do. On the contrary evey person is born with and indowned nature to recognize that there is a God and a nature which forbids them to do things (like an endowned moral code) but this is "moral code" (called fitrah in islam) helps the person cling on to the religion of god when he finds it! they aren't two different things that have nothing to do with one another, rather one leads you to the other.

Also you'll easily see the problems with just following your fitrah alone. This is because you'll start to say about God things that you don't know( for instance where is God? why do people suffer? why is god so evil (authubillah)) You will either fabricate your own relgion or adopt things from your surroundings (excuse the example, but your incorporation of "evolution into god" into your religion)

Lastly, its not uncocievable that God would send messengers to the people. Why? If god exists wouldn't he tell us what moral code we need to use to live life? who we are allowed to marry who we aren't? what we are allowed to eat and drink and what we are not? Religion isn't just the acceptance of Gods existance, its also living life according to how God instructed you to live

I hope that helps you and I'll pray for Allah to guid you and I hope the other muslims will as well

 

[Popeyesays]

Don't worry dear Scott, i never get angry from such discussions. I apologize if you think i was angry or somthing. It might be just the same problem i have WITH "ENGLISHHHHHHHHHHHHH"

Regarding challenging my belief "if any did", i have nothing to fear if someone did because it's the religion of Allah and i'm just a servant.




Where did prophet Mohammed said this?



Don't worry dear Scott, you have your beliefs and i have mine. BTW, one of your friends sent me a PM telling me that i shouldn't call you Popey. I'm sorry if i did so all this time but i just used to like it this way but your friend told me that i should call you Popeye says. I'm sorry if i did so in the past but i didn't mean to.

If you might find it entertaining you might look at the web site www.engrish.com It shows the way English is fractured in the Orient on translated signs and wrappers and such. It's very funny. Your English is excellent, and I am jealous of how well you deal in more than one language.

As to Popeyesays, I do not know if you are familiar with the cartoon character Popeye. He was the star of many cartoon shorts from the late 1930's to the 1970's. I took the screen name more than ten years ago because my last name is "Saylors" which is a Welsh spelling of sailor. Popeye was 'Popeye the Sailorman", I am "Popeye the Saylors Man." A weak joke but it is who I am on the internet, if you google that screen name you will find I have been posting far and wide for many years.

As to the Qur'an, I have always found this passage compelling, doubtless you will see it differently than I, but this is my reason for saying what I did:
"23. Allah has revealed (from time to time) the most beautiful Message in the form of a Book, consistent with itself, (yet) repeating (its teaching in various aspects): the skins of those who fear their Lord tremble thereat; then their skins and their hearts do soften to the celebration of Allah's praises. Such is the guidance of Allah: He guides therewith whom He pleases, but such as Allah leaves to stray, can have none to guide.
24. Is, then, one who has to fear the brunt of the Penalty on the Day of Judgement (and receive it) on his face, (like one guarded therefrom)? It will be said to the wrongdoers: "Taste ye (the fruits of) what ye earned!"
25. Those before them (also) rejected (revelation), and so the Punishment came to them from directions they did not perceive.
26. So Allah gave them a taste of humiliation in the present life, but greater is the Punishment of the Hereafter, if they only knew!
27. We have put forth for men, in this Qur'án every kind of Parable, in order that they may receive admonition.
28. (It is) a Qur'án in Arabic, without any crookedness (therein): in order that they may guard against Evil.
29. Allah puts forth a Parable -- a man belonging to many partners at variance with each other, and a man belonging entirely to one master: are those two equal in comparison? Praise be to Allah! But most of them have no knowledge.
30. Truly thou wilt die (one day) and truly they (too) will die (one day).
31. In the end will ye (all), on the Day of Judgement, settle your disputes in the presence of your Lord.
32. Who, then, doth more wrong than one who utters a lie concerning Allah, and rejects the truth when it comes to him? Is there not in Hell an abode for blasphemers?
33. And he who brings the Truth and he who confirms (and supports) it -- such are the men who do right.
34. They shall have all that they wish for, in the presence of their Lord: such is the reward of those who do good:
35. So that Allah will turn off from them (even) the worst in their deeds and give them their reward according to the best of what they have done.
36. Is not Allah enough for His servant? But they try to frighten thee with other (gods) besides him! For such as Allah leaves to stray, there can be no guide.
37. And such as Allah doth guide there can be none to lead astray, is not Allah Exalted in Power, (able to enforce His Will), Lord of Retribution?
38. If indeed thou ask them who it is that created the heavens and the earth, they would be sure to say, "Allah." Say: "See ye then? The things that ye invoke besides Allah, can they, if Allah wills some Penalty for me, remove His Penalty? Or if He wills some Grace for me, can they keep back His Grace?" Say: "Sufficient is Allah for me! In Him trust those who put their trust."
39. Say: "O my people! Do whatever ye can: I will do (my part): but soon will ye know --
40. "Who it is to whom come a Penalty of ignominy, and on whom descends a Penalty that abides."
41. Verily We have revealed the Book to thee in Truth, for (instructing) mankind. He, then, that receives guidance benefits his own soul: but he that strays injures his own soul. Nor art thou set over them to dispose of their affairs." Surah 39 [Yusuf Ali, trans]

Regards,
Scott

 

[maro]

I understand that you would appreciate this, and I encourage you yourself to do this whenever appropriate!

As for myself, my faith is based upon the Baha'i scriptures, so it is primarily from them that I quote.

Peace,

Bruce

Bruce , i have no problem that you rely on your Bahai scriptures ,

but my problem is , when the bahai come to tell us that they can understand the Quran , more than the arab muslims can ,
and start explaining to us how we misunderstood the verses of our own book ,

there is a verse in the holy quran that clearly states that prophet Muhammed is the last prophet and the seal of prophethood,

and if you don't believe in the quran , it's fine

but you have to say , i don't believe in the quran , i don't follow the the quran ,and i only believe in the bahai scriptures which , with no doubt , contradicts the Quran

if you say that , then there will be nothing between you and us to debate

 

[XAAX]

Well it seems that you believe in a God which is a good thing. However, it seems that you are setting guidelines for God telling him what he should do. with all do respect, I interpret your post as saying "I want to worship God how I see fit NOT how he wants it" which if you look at is contradicting that fact that there is a God. This is because to say that there is a God is to say that he is the high, the MASTER and he who dictates not you.
Now the issue which you raised about that "everyone should recieve some type of message" is contradictory as well. If you go back to the fact that God does exist, and ponder WHY God created this world, and you believe in a God you will come to conclude that there exists an afterlife (a hereafter). Now the only way for God to send people to hevean or to hell is to judge the people according to if they followed the message that he sent them or not. Now if God had sent the message only to the indivduals, there would be no real reason to judge people because everyone will have accepted the truth (I may sound a bit vauge but i hope your getting the idea)
I'm not saying that people don't have in them a sense of who god is and what he wants them to do. On the contrary evey person is born with and indowned nature to recognize that there is a God and a nature which forbids them to do things (like an endowned moral code) but this is "moral code" (called fitrah in islam) helps the person cling on to the religion of god when he finds it! they aren't two different things that have nothing to do with one another, rather one leads you to the other.

Also you'll easily see the problems with just following your fitrah alone. This is because you'll start to say about God things that you don't know( for instance where is God? why do people suffer? why is god so evil (authubillah)) You will either fabricate your own relgion or adopt things from your surroundings (excuse the example, but your incorporation of "evolution into god" into your religion)

Lastly, its not uncocievable that God would send messengers to the people. Why? If god exists wouldn't he tell us what moral code we need to use to live life? who we are allowed to marry who we aren't? what we are allowed to eat and drink and what we are not? Religion isn't just the acceptance of Gods existance, its also living life according to how God instructed you to live

I hope that helps you and I'll pray for Allah to guid you and I hope the other muslims will as well

Although I like your posts and you have my respect for being a good person. When I said the branch forked, it really did. Although I understand the point of view you are coming from it really doesn't apply to me. Many years ago I tried to force myself into the constraints of Christianity. I was about as devout as you could possible get. It was a terrible period for me toward the end. I felt if I could get more knowledge it would answer the questions that seem to be never ending in their ideology.

I am reading through the Qu'ran and will say that it is a much better religion from what I know so far. But to me, it is not my path. The years following my separation from religion were very trying ones spiritually. God did "save me" in the sense that I think you would perceive it. But it was directed to me. Not through anything else. As a matter of fact the path that was laid before me is similar to some religious ones. Just not any particular one.

It became clear to me from my visions that were if God had been broken into a puzzle, and the different religions through out the world had gotten pieces of this puzzle. Since they could not form the whole picture, they filled in the missing pieces with incorrect information. In my belief I have never know anything to make as much sense to all the tough question, like the ones you asked. It is not the inner voice misleading me; it was the presence of God that opened this door for me. Versus going on faith, as I had before, the reality required no faith. Everything fell into place.

I am missing pieces for sure. This is one of the tasks that I must achieve. But what I have seen of God in the pieces is far beyond that of any religion. That is except for the truths that they do have from their “puzzle pieces”. That is the only resemblance. I am enjoying studying your religion though, thank you for your responses.

 

[mohamedhassan]

Although I like your posts and you have my respect for being a good person. When I said the branch forked, it really did. Although I understand the point of view you are coming from it really doesn't apply to me. Many years ago I tried to force myself into the constraints of Christianity. I was about as devout as you could possible get. It was a terrible period for me toward the end. I felt if I could get more knowledge it would answer the questions that seem to be never ending in their ideology.

I am reading through the Qu'ran and will say that it is a much better religion from what I know so far. But to me, it is not my path. The years following my separation from religion were very trying ones spiritually. God did "save me" in the sense that I think you would perceive it. But it was directed to me. Not through anything else. As a matter of fact the path that was laid before me is similar to some religious ones. Just not any particular one.

It became clear to me from my visions that were if God had been broken into a puzzle, and the different religions through out the world had gotten pieces of this puzzle. Since they could not form the whole picture, they filled in the missing pieces with incorrect information. In my belief I have never know anything to make as much sense to all the tough question, like the ones you asked. It is not the inner voice misleading me; it was the presence of God that opened this door for me. Versus going on faith, as I had before, the reality required no faith. Everything fell into place.

I am missing pieces for sure. This is one of the tasks that I must achieve. But what I have seen of God in the pieces is far beyond that of any religion. That is except for the truths that they do have from their “puzzle pieces”. That is the only resemblance. I am enjoying studying your religion though, thank you for your responses.

Oh no problem I hope that helps you in trying to the truth. I hope you can find "the missing puzzles" in islam and if you can't I hope you can get an appretiation for the religion. In the end its ultimatley your decision on what you precieve to be the truth or not but I have at least taken the burden of conveying the message to you! And I hope through the will of God that the spirit which you find leading you to the truth guides you to the ultimate truth! hope the best for you

 

[Apple Pie]

It suddenly occurred to me that whilst most Christians believe that the Bible may well have innacuracies in it, because whichever human hand wrote the books, some of the meaning may well have been misunderstood - or even changed, to suit the writer's own belief.

I get the impression that Muslims follow the Quran to the letter, taking it as "The word of Allah", throughMuhammad (PUBH) . Yet, having read Islamic material, there seems to be some argument about who wrote it, or added to it .

The second text below quotes "God sent a Prophet and/or Messenger to every nation throughout the history of mankind."And verily, We have sent among every Ummah (community, nation) a messenger (proclaiming): Worship Allah (Alone) and avoid (or keep away from) all false deities" [Qur'an: 16:36]"
From the above, the implication is that Allah had ensured that every nation would have the same message (i.e. the Quran), and yet, no nations (except the Muslim ones) were given the Quran (as revealed through a prophet) . Why is it that we have our Bible ?

Hi Michel,

There is not a single solitary passage within the Koran itself that mentions the Islamic "Muhammad" as writing, nor dictating the Koranic scriptures...

Thus, based upon this most basic premise...it is pure myth for Muslims to think that their "prophet" had anything to do with the text at all.

Furthermore, the Koran tells us plainly where its material came from in scores of places.

It came from the Holy Bible.

It was translated from Biblical Hebrew and Greek into Arabic.

In fact, 80% of its content is taken from the Book of Revelation, alone....!

Observe these interesting comments by E.W. Lane…

Every language without a written literature tends to decay more than to development by reason of foreign influences; and the history of the Arabic exhibits an instance of decay remarkably rapid, and extraordinary in degree. An immediate consequence of the foreign conquests achieved by the Arabs under Mohammad’s first four successors was an extensive corruption of their language; for the nations that they subdued were naturally obliged to adopt in a great measure the speech of the conquerors, a speech which few persons have ever acquired in such a degree as to be secure from the commission of frequent errors in grammar without learning it from infancy….

Such being the case, it became a matter of the highest importance to the Arabs to preserve the knowledge of that speech which had thus become obsolescent, and to draw a distinct line between the classical and the post-classical languages. For the former language was that of the Kur-an and of the Traditions of Mohammad, the sources of their religious, moral, civil, criminal, and political code’ and they possessed, in that language, preserved by oral tradition, - for the art of writing, in Arabia, had been almost exclusively confined to Christians and Jews….

The classical language they called, by reason of its incomparable excellence, “el-loghah,” or “the language:” and the line between this and the post-classical was easily drawn, on account of the almost sudden commencement, and rapid progress, of the corruption.

….I often have found in my knowledge of modern Arabic a solution of a difficulty; but without great caution, such knowledge would frequently have misled me, in consequence of the changes which have taken place in the applications of many words since the classical age.


References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, pp. vii – viii; xxii - xxiii

It is quite inescapable that Islam’s “prophet”….who is not even mentioned in the Koran at all (due to the fact that he was a fictional character)… and did NOT write the Koran…

Moreover…the authors, who did finally put pen to paper, and translated the Hebrew and Greek into Arabic, were more than likely Christians…..!!!

Amazing...