Who wrote the Quran, and is it infallible ?

[GloriaPatri]

Sorry to disagree with you, Jesus wasn't the founder of Christianity. It was later on after he was ascended to heaven.

Actually, he was - it's His teachings that Christianity is based on.

 

[Popeyesays]

Actually, he was - it's His teachings that Christianity is based on.

Abraham was the perfect example of Submission, so was Moses, Zoroaster, Jesus, Noah, Salih, Hu'ud, Jesus and Muhammad. Baha`i's accept the reality of the continuation of visits to us by the Apostles of God, in the persons of The Bab and Baha`iu'llah. We also accept that that chain of Revelation will be continued in the future.

Regards,
Scott

 

[maro]

And as to the verse you quoted, it was very true FOR THAT AGE! But this is a different age.

As for the verse I quoted , it was very true for that age , and it is still true for this age , and it will always be true for every coming age
(unless u bring a proof from the quran to bielive otherwise)

And what was needed--and has now been revealed--are new social teachings and laws for THIS AGE, as contrasted with others thousands of years ago

first , the social teachings and laws of Islam came only 1400 years ago ( not thousands of years ago)

and if those laws were established by people, I would have completely agreed with you that they need to be updated
(not after 1400 years , but only 20 years ahead)

but since these laws came from the creator,
so I find no problem for them to be applicable for millions of years

and why don't we speak ( with examples )
why don't u tell us ,(x) in islam can't be applicable , and instead (y) in my religion can be applicable

(other than the slavery example which brother TT , proved wrong)

and although we don't have to discuss that with u ( simply because u didn't prove that Bah 'ullah was a prophet, yet ) and because the quran already states that Muhammed is the last prophet

but I see no problem to have this discussion , just to prove that the the laws of Islam , are suitable for every age,
(not suitable , but they are the best )

The Baha'i Faith, too, will eventually be superceded because God continually reveals new teachings and laws suited to humanity's needs and abilities in each Age!

please, when u talk about what God do , and what he don't , I would appreciate bringing a verse from the quran

sura 2

"O mankind ! Eat of that which is lawful and wholesome in Earth and follow not the footsteps of the devil (shaitan ) , surely he is your open enemy (168)

He only enjoins you evil and foul , and that you may speak concerning allah what you don't know " (169)

 

[maro]

Actually, he was - it's His teachings that Christianity is based on.

Jesus teached ( There is no God but Allah , and I am his prophet )
is this what christianity is based on ?

 

[maro]

Baha`i's accept the reality of the continuation of visits to us by the Apostles of God, in the persons of The Bab and Baha`iu'llah. We also accept that that chain of Revelation will be continued in the future.

from where did this reality came to u , if the quran ( u are believing in ) states that Muhammed (pbuh ) is the last prophet

sura33, verse 40
" Muhammed is not the father of any of your men , but he is the messenger of allah , and the last of the prophets , and Allah is ever aware of everything "


I see u re-illuminated this verse as well :sarcastic

 

[kai]

As for the verse I quoted , it was very true for that age , and it is still true for this age , and it will always be true for every coming age
(unless u bring a proof from the quran to bielive otherwise)




first , the social teachings and laws of Islam came only 1400 years ago ( not thousands of years ago)

and if those laws were established by people, I would have completely agreed with you that they need to be updated
(not after 1400 years , but only 20 years ahead)

but since these laws came from the creator,
so I find no problem for them to be applicable for millions of years

and why don't we speak ( with examples )
why don't u tell us ,(x) in islam can't be applicable , and instead (y) in my religion can be applicable

(other than the slavery example which brother TT , proved wrong)

and although we don't have to discuss that with u ( simply because u didn't prove that Bah 'ullah was a prophet, yet ) and because the quran already states that Muhammed is the last prophet

but I see no problem to have this discussion , just to prove that the the laws of Islam , are suitable for every age,
(not suitable , but they are the best )



please, when u talk about what God do , and what he don't , I would appreciate bringing a verse from the quran

sura 2

"O mankind ! Eat of that which is lawful and wholesome in Earth and follow not the footsteps of the devil (shaitan ) , surely he is your open enemy (168)

He only enjoins you evil and foul , and that you may speak concerning allah what you don't know " (169)

interesting you think TT proved it wrong!

It was in the early 20th century (post World War I) that slavery gradually became outlawed and suppressed in Muslim lands, largely due to pressure exerted by Western nations such as Britain and France.[2]

source:wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_Slavery

 

[maro]

interesting you think TT proved it wrong!

It was in the early 20th century (post World War I) that slavery gradually became outlawed and suppressed in Muslim lands, largely due to pressure exerted by Western nations such as Britain and France.[2]

source:wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_Slavery

when your link speaks in the name of Islam, it must provide either a verse or a hadith Sahih (proved right ) to support

or else it would be just claims with no evidence , ( the Islam accepts ...., the quran says......)

and about the historical point of view ( and although it is off topic to discuss on that thread )
TT has already mentioned that slavery was common in Mekkah Before Islam , and the Islam came to liberate the slaves

and the rich companions of the prophet (like abo bakr al sedique , othman ibn Afan and others ) liberated hundreds of them

and about ur claim that the slaves still existed in the muslim land till the first world war ,
Prove it

and as for my contry , egypt (which is an islamic country ) , this is absloutely not true

 

[Peace]

The ignorant Muslim scholars then decided to proclaim Muhammad an illiterate man! They figured that this would make the Quran's extraordinary literary excellence truly miraculous. The word they relied on to bestow illiteracy upon the Prophet was "UMMY"

God says in His Holy Quran:
"Neither did you (O Muhammad) read any book before it (this Qur’ân), nor did you write any book (whatsoever) with your right hand. In that case, indeed, the followers of falsehood might have doubted."

 

[Popeyesays]

from where did this reality came to u , if the quran ( u are believing in ) states that Muhammed (pbuh ) is the last prophet

sura33, verse 40
" Muhammed is not the father of any of your men , but he is the messenger of allah , and the last of the prophets , and Allah is ever aware of everything "


I see u re-illuminated this verse as well :sarcastic

:bahai:

According to Rodman:
"33:40 Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Apostle
of God, and the seal of the prophets: and God knoweth all things.
O Believers! remember God with frequent remembrance, and praise Him
morning and evening."
(The Qur'an (Rodwell tr), Sura 33 - The Confederates)

According to Yusuf Ali:
"40. Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things."
(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 33)

According to Palmer:
"Mohammed is not the father of any of your men, but the Apostle of God, and the Seal of the Prophets; for God all things doth know! O ye who believe! remember God with frequent remembrance, and celebrate His praises morning and evening."
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 33 - The Confederates)

And according to Pickthall:
"40 Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all things."

(The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura 33 - The Allies)

In fact I do not have a single English translation of the Qur'an available that says "LAST" when it translates 'khaatam'. And also the meaning of khaatam is also "ornament" or "seal" used for sealing a document. The Qur'an was a document, but it was not the last document to contain the word of God, nor the last Apostle of God to afix His seal to that document. Neither is Baha`u'llah the LAST.

As to re-illuminating sacred text?
Further in the same Surah the same term is used for Muhammad Himself:
"from Pickthall:

45 O Prophet! Lo! We have sent thee as a witness and a bringer of good tidings and a warner.
46 And as a summoner unto Allah by His permission, and as a lamp that giveth light.
47 And announce unto the believers the good tidings that they will have great bounty from Allah.
(The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura 33 - The Allies)

from Rodman:
"O Prophet! we have sent thee to be a witness, and a herald of glad
tidings, and a warner;
And one who, through His own permission, summoneth to god, and a
light-giving torch.
Announce, therefore, to believers, that great boons do await them from
God;"

from Yusuf Ali:
"45. O Prophet! Truly We have sent thee as a Witness, a Bearer of Glad Tidings, and a Warner --
46. And as one who invites to Allah's (Grace) by His leave, and as a Lamp spreading Light.
47. Then give the glad tidings to the Believers, that they shall have from Allah a very great Bounty."

From Palmer:
"O thou prophet! verily, we have sent thee as a witness and a herald of glad tidings and a warner, and to call (men) unto God by His permission, and as an illuminating lamp.
Give glad tidings then to the believers, that for them is great grace from God. And follow not the unbelievers and the hypocrites; but let alone their ill-treatment, and rely upon God, for God is guardian enough."
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 33 - The Confederates)

If we wish to dance among the verses of God, let's do it in one of the more recognized translations, please. :dan:

Regards,
Scott

 

[TashaN]

Actually, he was - it's His teachings that Christianity is based on.

I agree that Christianity is based on his teaching, but that doesn't mean, he "himself" is the founder of "Christianity" in it's current form today. Jesus Christ "peace be upon him" never came up with the name of a new religion.

 

[TashaN]

I said this before in another thread but i'll say it again for the sake of the argument.

In pure arabic khatim is not accurate because khatim means that the one who do this sealing but not a noun like khatam which means the Seal itself. BTW, if there is any who would talk about this so that would not be you or me but the real pure Arabs at the time of prophet Mohammed because Allah challenged them to find any error but they found none and if the verse was khatim so they might say that the langauage of the Quran is not that perfect. Khaatam is the only word which can be a noun but not like an attribute as khatim is. Moreover, there is a hadith from saheeh al-Bukhari which prophet said in it: (the prophethood had gone and the rest is only the Mobashirat "i guess in english it's the good news" and they said what is al-mubashirat so he said: the right seen "in the dream he meant"). Sorry, i'm not that well in english as much arabic. Also, in saheeh Muslim"the scholar" prophet Mohammed said: ( and He"God" sealed by me the prophets ).

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15976
Post # 36.

 

[Popeyesays]

I said this before in another thread but i'll say it again for the sake of the argument.

In pure arabic khatim is not accurate because khatim means that the one who do this sealing but not a noun like khatam which means the Seal itself. BTW, if there is any who would talk about this so that would not be you or me but the real pure Arabs at the time of prophet Mohammed because Allah challenged them to find any error but they found none and if the verse was khatim so they might say that the langauage of the Quran is not that perfect. Khaatam is the only word which can be a noun but not like an attribute as khatim is. Moreover, there is a hadith from saheeh al-Bukhari which prophet said in it: (the prophethood had gone and the rest is only the Mobashirat "i guess in english it's the good news" and they said what is al-mubashirat so he said: the right seen "in the dream he meant"). Sorry, i'm not that well in english as much arabic. Also, in saheeh Muslim"the scholar" prophet Mohammed said: ( and He"God" sealed by me the prophets ).

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15976
Post # 36.

Which, in English, is to say: "God ornamented the Prophets with me." or "God made me the Ornament of the Prophets".

Khaatam is also confused by the Hadith description of a physical characteristic of Muhammad's body.

The only places in the Bukhari Hadith that uses "Prophethood" refers to this physical characteristic:
"My aunt took me to Allah's Apostle and said, "O Allah's Apostle! My nephew is-
ill." The Prophet touched my head with his hand and invoked Allah to bless me. He
then performed ablution and I drank of the remaining water of his ablution and then
stood behind his back and saw "Khatam An-Nubuwwa" (The Seal of
Prophethood) between his shoulders like a button of a tent."
(Hadith, Bukhari Vol 7)

There are four others uses of "prophethood" and all refer to the Khatam An-Nubuwwa, as the "Seal of the Prophets".

Regards,
Scott

 

[TashaN]

Which, in English, is to say: "God ornamented the Prophets with me." or "God made me the Ornament of the Prophets".

Dear Popey, i'm well aware of your deep knowledge and all (or most of ) people in RF acknowledge it and i respect you for that, plus your great personality and attitude.

Nevertheless, when it come to Arabic, i feel as you (i don't say deceived) but maybe misunderstood some Arabic terms, maybe because of those Baha'is who explained it for you in Arabic.

Believe me, what you have presented so far about the Seal of prophet thing don't hold water with me and anyone who speaks arabic will agree with me unless he/she has some agendas.

You better check it again with people who speaks arabic (independent Arabian but not bahai's) because you still didn't get what i explained for you so far.

Khaatam is also confused by the Hadith description of a physical characteristic of Muhammad's body.

It's not confused but rather, it will just prove my point that prophet Mohammed is the last prophet and the seal of prophethood sign appeare clearly in his body, so we have here words (in the Quran and hadiths), plus the physical proof that prophet Mohammed is the last prophet.

I hope you got what i meant, and i wish that you will find other things to prove your faith rather than this khatam thing as i told you before in other threads, or just declear your faith as an independent faith founded by Bahu'lah based on his own thoughts and observations.


Peace and blessing,

TT

 

[Popeyesays]

Dear Popey, i'm well aware of your deep knowledge and all (or most of ) people in RF acknowledge it and i respect you for that, plus your great personality and attitude.

Nevertheless, when it come to Arabic, i feel as you (i don't say deceived) but maybe misunderstood some Arabic terms, maybe because of those Baha'is who explained it for you in Arabic.

Believe me, what you have presented so far about the Seal of prophet thing don't hold water with me and anyone who speaks arabic will agree with me unless he/she has some agendas.

You better check it again with people who speaks arabic (independent Arabian but not bahai's) because you still didn't get what i explained for you so far.



It's not confused but rather, it will just prove my point that prophet Mohammed is the last prophet and the seal of prophethood sign appeare clearly in his body, so we have here words (in the Quran and hadiths), plus the physical proof that prophet Mohammed is the last prophet.

I hope you got what i meant, and i wish that you will find other things to prove your faith rather than this khatam thing as i told you before in other threads, or just declear your faith as an independent faith founded by Bahu'lah based on his own thoughts and observations.


Peace and blessing,

TT

Brother Truth,

I understand that the weight of tradition in Islam proclaims this interpretation of "Seal". But the weight of tradition is not in itself proof of anything. It was the weight of tradition which caused the Sanhedrin to deny Jesus, and it was the weight of tradition that caused the Hebrews and the Christians to deny Muhammad.

The Baha`i Faith is indeed independent. It is also, indeed linked to the Apostles Who preceded the establishment of the Bab and Baha`u'llah.


Baha`u'llah writes this in the Kitab'i Iqan, it is actually speaking of the Bab, since the Iqan predates Baha`u'llah's own Announcement; but it is reiterated in other Tablets of Baha`u'llah in reference to Himself.

"Amongst the proofs demonstrating the truth of this Revelation is this, that in every age and Dispensation, whenever the invisible Essence was revealed in the person of His Manifestation, certain souls, obscure and detached from all worldly entanglements, would seek illumination from the Sun of Prophethood and Moon of divine guidance, and would attain unto the divine Presence. For this 222 reason, the divines of the age and those possessed of wealth, would scorn and scoff at these people. Even as He hath revealed concerning them that erred: "Then said the chiefs of His people who believed not, 'We see in Thee but a man like ourselves; and we see not any who have followed Thee except our meanest ones of hasty judgment, nor see we any excellence in you above ourselves: nay, we deem you liars.'"[1] They caviled at those holy Manifestations, and protested saying: "None hath followed you except the abject amongst us, those who are worthy of no attention." Their aim was to show that no one amongst the learned, the wealthy, and the renowned believed in them. By this and similar proofs they sought to demonstrate the falsity of Him that speaketh naught but the truth.
[1 Qur'án 11:27.]
In this most resplendent Dispensation, however, this most mighty Sovereignty, a number of illumined divines, of men of consummate learning, of doctors of mature wisdom, have attained unto His Court, drunk the cup of His divine Presence, and been invested with the honour of His most excellent favour. They have renounced, for the sake of the Beloved, the world and all that is therein. We 223 will mention the names of some of them, that perchance it may strengthen the faint-hearted, and encourage the timorous.
Among them was Mulla Husayn, who became the recipient of the effulgent glory of the Sun of divine Revelation. But for him, God would not have been established upon the seat of His mercy, nor ascended the throne of eternal glory. Among them also was Siyyid Yahya, that unique and peerless figure of his age,
Mulla Muhammad Aliy-i-Zanjani
Mulla Aliy-i-Bastami
Mulla Sa'id-i-Barfurushi
Mulla Ni'matu'llah-i-Mazindarani
Mulla Yusuf-i-Ardibili
Mulla Mihdiy-i-Khu'i
Siyyid Husayn-i-Turshizi
Mulla Mihdiy-i-Kandi
Mulla Baqir
Mulla Abdu'l-Khaliq-i-Yazdi
Mulla Aliy-i-Baraqani
and others, well nigh four hundred in number, whose names are all inscribed upon the "Guarded Tablet" of God.
All these were guided by the light of that Sun of divine Revelation, confessed and acknowledged His truth. Such was their faith, that most of them renounced their substance and kindred, and 224 cleaved to the good-pleasure of the All-Glorious. They laid down their lives for their Well-Beloved, and surrendered their all in His path. Their breasts were made targets for the darts of the enemy, and their heads adorned the spears of the infidel."
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 221)

We are not in contention in anyway, uet our interpretations differ. That's as God wills it, I suppose. Hopefully God also wills that our discussions should strike sparks of light for both of us and for any who follow it.

Regards,
Scott

 

[TashaN]

Brother Truth,

I understand that the weight of tradition in Islam proclaims this interpretation of "Seal". But the weight of tradition is not in itself proof of anything. It was the weight of tradition which caused the Sanhedrin to deny Jesus, and it was the weight of tradition that caused the Hebrews and the Christians to deny Muhammad.

Oh C'mon Popey, don't play now on the cord of emotions. You know well that i'm not talking about the Islamic tradition but about PLAIN ARABIC TERMS.

The Baha`i Faith is indeed independent. It is also, indeed linked to the Apostles Who preceded the establishment of the Bab and Baha`u'llah.

I see no links in here except some claims here and there, and an entire faith (Baha'i faith) based on one word "khatam" (according to you), which turned to be wrong after all as i proved it to you.

Hopefully God also wills that our discussions should strike sparks of light for both of us and for any who follow it.

Amen.

 

[nawab]

May Peace, Mercy and blessings of Allah be on all of you

my friend here as said that why quran is revelead to the muslims why not any other nations.

1) the quran is not revealed to the muslims, the muslims became muslims because of the divine revelaton. it was meant for the entire human kind - quran 21:106
we have sent thee as a mercy, as a guidiance to the whole of human kind

2) the quran was a divine revealation just like the previous ones Injil, Zabur, Taurah
but these were meant for certain nations and for a certain times. bible to us is just like windows 98 and quran windows XP simple as that

3) misunderstanding the bible due to language problems, the bible was not revealed in english but in hebrew, so to understand the bible you must understand HEBREW like may time Jesus is decribed as son of David and sometimes son of Joseph that does not mean that he has two father doesnt it. but in hebrew language structure it means descandant of.trsut me if you Christians understood the bible you would be muslims right now.

let me give a present to you Christian Friends, do you know how to identify a true Christian Beliver? according to Gospel of Mark 16:17-18 these signs shall accompany the true belivers with my name they shall cast out demons, speak foriegn tounges, heal the sick by placing their hand of the sick's Head, Immune to drinking deadly poison. if this prophicey is true then in my life amongst 1Billion Christian population I have never saw a true Christian Beliver.

4) Who wrote Quran? good question - if it is not Divine and human made then it should at least have one mistake i would say. I mean if the quran was not divine it should have contradictions and mistakes like the bible. I Challenge anyone to find one mistake in the Quran - but heres more interesting i can give you 20 contradictions from the bible right now - give me 2 days i will give you 50 contradictions - 1 year i will give 1000 mistakes from the bible i challenge any one to just give me one.

during my presentation if i hurt any Christian friends or from any other religions feelings i apologise sincerly from my heart - my purpose was just the truth
it doesnt matter what i say or you say - what really matters is what the scriptures say
i gave you all proper refereneces just have a look - wont take that much of your time wouldnt it.

i would like to end my presentation here with a verse from the Quran 17:81
when truth is hurled agaisnt falsehood
falsehood perishes
for falsehood is by nature bound to perish


my Salam to all of you

ASAD

It suddenly occurred to me that whilst most Christians believe that the Bible may well have innacuracies in it, because whichever human hand wrote the books, some of the meaning may well have been misunderstood - or even changed, to suit the writer's own belief.

I get the impression that Muslims follow the Quran to the letter, taking it as "The word of Allah", throughMuhammad (PUBH) . Yet, having read Islamic material, there seems to be some argument about who wrote it, or added to it .

The second text below quotes "God sent a Prophet and/or Messenger to every nation throughout the history of mankind."And verily, We have sent among every Ummah (community, nation) a messenger (proclaiming): Worship Allah (Alone) and avoid (or keep away from) all false deities" [Qur'an: 16:36]"
From the above, the implication is that Allah had ensured that every nation would have the same message (i.e. the Quran), and yet, no nations (except the Muslim ones) were given the Quran (as revealed through a prophet) . Why is it that we have our Bible ?

Why is it that the above passage also states:- God sent a Prophet and/or Messenger to every nation throughout the history of mankind." . The question that immediately comes to mind is "who is the modern day messenger (or Prophet) ?
To clarify, therefore,
1. Who did write the entire Quran ?
2. Who and where have been all the prophets since Muhammad (PUBH) ?

Please note that I have use what appears to be genuine Islamic sites.........






The following sitequotes:-

Prophet Muhammad
Wrote God's Revelations
With His Own Hand

• The first revelation was "Read," and included the statement "God teaches by means of the pen" (96:1-4), and the second revelation was "The Pen" (68:1). The only function of the pen is to write.
  Ignorant Muslim scholars of the first two centuries after the Quran could not understand the Quran's challenge to produce anything like it. They had no idea about the Quran's mathematical composition, and they knew that many literary giants could have composed works comparable to the Quran. In fact, many such literary giants did claim the ability to produce a literary work as excellent as the Quran. The latest claim came from Taha Hussein, the renowned Egyptian writer.
  The ignorant Muslim scholars then decided to proclaim Muhammad an illiterate man! They figured that this would make the Quran's extraordinary literary excellence truly miraculous. The word they relied on to bestow illiteracy upon the Prophet was "UMMY." Unfortunately for those "scholars," this word clearly means "Gentile," or one who does not follow any scripture (Torah, Injeel, or Quran) [see 2:78, 3:20 & 75, 62:2]; it does NOT mean "illiterate."
  The Prophet was a successful merchant. The "Muslim scholars" who fabricated the illiteracy lie forgot that there were no numbers during the Prophet's time; the letters of the alphabet were used as numbers. As a merchant dealing with numbers every day, the Prophet had to know the alphabet, from one to one-thousand.
  The Quran tells us that Muhammad wrote down the Quran - Muhammad's contemporaries are quoted as saying, "These are tales from the past that he wrote down. They are being dictated to him day and night" (25:5). You cannot "dictate" to an illiterate person. The Prophet's enemies who accuse him of illiteracy abuse Verse 29:48, which relates specifically to previous scriptures.
  On the 27th night of Ramadan 13 B.H. (Before Hijerah), Muhammad the soul, the real person, not the body, was summoned to the highest universe and the Quran was given to him (2:97, 17:1, 44:3, 53:1-18, 97:1-5). Subsequently, the angel Gabriel helped Muhammad release a few verses of the Quran at a time, from the soul to Muhammad's memory. The Prophet wrote down and memorized the verses just released into his mind. When the Prophet died, he left the complete Quran written down with his own hand in the chronological order of revelation, along with specific instructions as to where to place every verse. The divine instructions recorded by the Prophet were designed to put the Quran together into the final format intended for God's Final Testament to the world (75:17). The early Muslims did not get around to putting the Quran together until the time of Khalifa Rashed `Uthmaan. A committee was appointed to carry out this task.
  
  
  
  God created man for a noble purpose: to worship Him and lead a righteous life based on His commands and guidance to mankind. Mankind learned this by God sending Messengers with clear and practical instructions of the meaning of life and how to worship God properly. God also revealed to these Prophets and Messengers knowledge about what will happen after death and the rewards and punishments for one’s actions.
  These Prophets and Messengers convey the same prevailing message which is
  entrusted to them by God. They proclaimed:"…Oh my people! Worship God! (i.e., without associating anything with him) You have no other god but Him. [Qur'an: 7:65]
  God sent a Prophet and/or Messenger to every nation throughout the history of
  mankind."And verily, We have sent among every Ummah (community, nation) a messenger (proclaiming): Worship Allah (Alone) and avoid (or keep away from) all false deities" [Qur'an: 16:36]
  Some of them we have been informed of and others we have not. These Prophets and Messengers include, but not limited to: Adam, Noah, Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, Lot, David, Solomon, Elias, Elisha, Hood, Thul-Kifi, Enoch, Jonah, Job Shu’aib, Saalih, Ezra, Zachariyyah, John, Jesus , Muhammad and others peace and blessings be upon them all.
  Some of them were sent with Books while others were not.
  Some of the books that we were informed of are the Scriptures of Abraham, the Torah of Moses, the Zaboor of Dawood, and the Injeel which was revealed to Jesus. All of these scriptures contained the same basic message from God to mankind. Each Prophet brought specific instructions from God addressed to a particular people for certain times in history and particular circumstances although the essential message remained the same.

 

[nawab]

the quranis far superior then any other scriptures - you talk about council of Niceae
if that is true what Abu Bakr has did like you said - it should at least have 1 mistake in the quran common man tell one with reference.

it is not like the council of Nicea - please use your words appropriatly and dont give us a benfit of doubt - you also have to return to god do you know many mistakes and contradictions in the bible are. so how can it be like Council of Nicea

Ma as-Salamah

Asad

Abu Baqr supervised a council of Muslim scholars--all of whom had heard the Qur'an recited before them and committed it to memory. They completed after several years the project of determining what is Qur'anic and what is not.

In my opinion, this is quite similar to the Council of Nicaea, though Abu Baaqr's project was graced by those who had actually heard the Prophet speak.

Once this Qur'an was completed, Abu Baqr, in his authority as Caliph disseminated the document all over the Islamic world with directions that all other versions were to be destroyed lest confusion and division might reign.

To an extreme degree this order was carried out all over Islam. The decree was to burn the unofficial documents, though the tradition was largely to bury with honor like a believer might be buried, Qur'ans that were worn out or damaged.

In Yemen a pre-Abu Baqr collection of Qur'ans was wrapped in cloth and tucked away in the dome of the earliest mosque in Yemen. It was discovered in the 1970's and Yemeni officals did not destroy it, but allowed a few scholars to make proper photographic copies and analyze the documents.

There are indeed differences in the versions.

Add to this the simple fact that since the Abu Baqr version of the Qur'an was pronouced the alphabet has changed with the addition of diacriticals to designate vowels that was never present in the original versions and there is room for some uncertainty.

This uncertainty has created a great deal of furor in the Islamic world.

This change in alphabet is largely the cause of the disagreement over the word "khataam" and indicates a different symbology for the phrase "Seal of the Prophets" may be more accurate than the traditional very strict definition of the phrase.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

the quranis far superior then any other scriptures - you talk about council of Niceae
if that is true what Abu Bakr has did like you said - it should at least have 1 mistake in the quran common man tell one with reference.

it is not like the council of Nicea - please use your words appropriatly and dont give us a benfit of doubt - you also have to return to god do you know many mistakes and contradictions in the bible are. so how can it be like Council of Nicea

Ma as-Salamah

Asad

Surely God can protect His Own revelation. The Qur'an was revealed by God to Muhammad, when Muhammad recited it, it was perfect.

Now, what happens when two readers interpret the same verse differently, surely that is imperfect, but the imperfection is not in the text, it is in the reader.

The Torah, the Injeel - also were perfect when revealed and the state of perfection God protects. The interpretation of readers is imperfect.

I believe your reading of the wrestling match in the Torah is imperfect because it ignores the value of the metaphor.

Does our interpretation difference mean the Word of God is imperfect? No. Two men of good faith can discuss the differences and either find a new perfection or trust God to guide them.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

the quranis far superior then any other scriptures - you talk about council of Niceae
if that is true what Abu Bakr has did like you said - it should at least have 1 mistake in the quran common man tell one with reference.

it is not like the council of Nicea - please use your words appropriatly and dont give us a benfit of doubt - you also have to return to god do you know many mistakes and contradictions in the bible are. so how can it be like Council of Nicea

Ma as-Salamah

Asad

Surely God can protect His Own revelation. The Qur'an was revealed by God to Muhammad, when Muhammad recited it, it was perfect.

Now, what happens when two readers interpret the same verse differently, surely that is imperfect, but the imperfection is not in the text, it is in the reader.

The Torah, the Injeel - also were perfect when revealed and the state of perfection God protects. The interpretation of readers is imperfect.

I believe your reading of the wrestling match in the Torah is imperfect because it ignores the value of the metaphor.

Does our interpretation difference mean the Word of God is imperfect? No. Two men of good faith can discuss the differences and either find a new perfection or trust God to guide them.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

That sounds like a parallel to the Christian/LDS "split"

You are right that is why they and many others may be deviant but Allah will judge. they will have to answer where and who gave them the authority to bring something after Allah says Muhammed is the Seal of Prophets meaning the final. Why many groups come with other stuff and what is there evidence to support it. Who knows Allah will judge. Islam is what it is and it is complete and any new concept or idea or methodology not accepted by the messenger of his companions and in contradiction to Allah should be questioned.

but Michel it is for you to decide. How do you know what is correct? Many people start with the beginning. When you listen to what comes later as opposed of getting everything that was said first a person would become confused. If I said I am the last and no one came after me and to not add anything to what I said or change it. You never heard it. someone comes along and says this is what I said and it is completely in contradiction to what i said who are you gonna believe. the original or the one after.

Peace.