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Who's more racist... the religious or the non-religious?

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I'm sorry you claim that he in fact couldn't revoke free will for the nano nano second it would take to change people from being evil to being good, so he revoked their free will by killing them instead
If he did so that would violate freewill, resposibility, revelation, and the reason for freewill and consequence in the first place. Sounds like you prefer to be an automaton. People left to who chose evil inspite of their God given concience, revelation, and the appeals of Godly men would naturally be responsible for that. Our whole (secular) system of justice is based on that principle.



What a great plan devised before anything was ever created and to then hypocritically offer to never do it again, what a loser. According to who? You and the other godbotherers?
The flood was not planned beforehand. It was known before hand I assume but not planned. That has no effect of the resonsability of the people who rejected God and chose evil as their God instead. He said he would never do it again by water. It will be done again according to the bible only he will not do it this next time, we will. It looks like we are getting close to that time. What is a Godbotherer? I assume it can only be some negative novelty term of derision. And I assume that includes people like Mother Theresa, Ghandi, the monks who invented the concept of the modern hospital, all those faith based orginizations that provide wordwide relief from misery, Christ, the people who created the U.S. public education system,etc....... yeah lets stop those people.



You claim that the god of genesis exhibits all of the attributes necessary for an all powerful creator god but then spend the rest of the bible defending why he can't do certain things.
Not just me me but a vast number of scholars, philosophers, and scientists. Because I, you, or God choose not to do something does not mean we are incapable of doing it. For goodness sakes the only way God wouldn't violate your silly standard is if he did every concievable thing that could be done. That's logical, and also impersonal.



Yeah I addressed this point but you haven't. How do you maintain someones free will by killing them? Are you or is it your god that's mad?
You keep asking the same illogical questions over and over,. You should get some different seminars on the schedule. I said at least twice this granting of freewill is not for an infinate time. It is finite and that time is determined by God.




I'm sorry, but it would seem that your point of view is based on the premis you accuse me of. I have no interest in your hell or separation or whatever, I merely point out that an omnipotent omniscient god could come up with abetter plan than destroying everyones free will by killing them. Oh please, now you claim to know god's point of view? Sorry but you can't know the mind of god you have said more often than I care to recall.
If I am wrong about your premise then your position is even less logical and incoherent. This plan would have to be consistent with revelation and God's purposes. This is something that you do not have the capacity to judge. "Sorry but you can't know the mind of god you have said more often than I care to recall." Exactly with the exception of revelation. If God states why he did something I not only can know it but am expected to know it.

Here we go this is the time when you challenge your gods infinity, yes? Or is your god infinite?
This did nothing to clarify whatever in the world you originally tried to say. It only added another layer of confusion.
 

beerisit

Active Member
If he did so that would violate freewill, resposibility, revelation, and the reason for freewill and consequence in the first place. Sounds like you prefer to be an automaton. People left to who chose evil inspite of their God given concience, revelation, and the appeals of Godly men would naturally be responsible for that. Our whole (secular) system of justice is based on that principle.
Once again you fail to answer how killing someone doesn't violate their free will. You can ramble all day about how your god couldn't blink goodness into the existence of his creations because he couldn't violate their free will but he felt justified in destroying their free will by killing them. I'm a bit sad that anyone is comfortable with that, it just makes world wars possible.


The flood was not planned beforehand. It was known before hand I assume but not planned. That has no effect of the resonsability of the people who rejected God and chose evil as their God instead. He said he would never do it again by water. It will be done again according to the bible only he will not do it this next time, we will. It looks like we are getting close to that time. What is a Godbotherer? I assume it can only be some negative novelty term of derision. And I assume that includes people like Mother Theresa, Ghandi, the monks who invented the concept of the modern hospital, all those faith based orginizations that provide wordwide relief from misery, Christ, the people who created the U.S. public education system,etc....... yeah lets stop those people.
Are you now claiming that your god didn't plan any of this? He just fly's by the seat of his pants even though he knows full well EXACTLY what will happen? Are you serious? Get outa here!!!!!! He knew before he created Adam and Eve that he would destroy the Earth and then promise never to do it again by water, just what sort of hypocrite is your god? The monks who invented Benedictine are my most favoured religious people of all time, that reminds me I need a bottle.


Not just me me but a vast number of scholars, philosophers, and scientists. Because I, you, or God choose not to do something does not mean we are incapable of doing it. For goodness sakes the only way God wouldn't violate your silly standard is if he did every concievable thing that could be done. That's logical, and also impersonal.
Oh dear, play the heartstring song. I'm sorry but your god is allegedly capable of anything, he in fact is described in the bible as having the EXACT attributes (doesn't that strike you as a bit odd) required for such a god to be capable of creating everything. But now your saying that he voluntarily limits his capacities because if he didn't then most of the stories written about him don't make sense and they must make sense or all of your life is a waste. You and others love to compare your god to US, like he's the same and I must agree, he was created by ancient man in the same form as the leaders, rulers, kings, despots, petulant brats that they had had contact with or knowledge of.


You keep asking the same illogical questions over and over,. You should get some different seminars on the schedule. I said at least twice this granting of freewill is not for an infinate time. It is finite and that time is determined by God.
I have no idea what seminars you are lieing about, but this concept that your god is somehow so insecure that he can at a whim kill people and animals and plants because what he knew would happen actually did happen, because that is how he created things is a seminar to far for you. If you tried to think about your god, you might be surprised. If a god exists, it's not the one you worship, it's not some p1ssant ,petty, spoiled, bureaucrat that dominates your life. I suggest a walk on the real side.



If I am wrong about your premise then your position is even less logical and incoherent. This plan would have to be consistent with revelation and God's purposes. This is something that you do not have the capacity to judge. "Sorry but you can't know the mind of god you have said more often than I care to recall." Exactly with the exception of revelation. If God states why he did something I not only can know it but am expected to know it.
Once again you claim to know your god's mind. Theists do it constantly all the time proclaiming that nobody can know god's mind, when will you ever get it. So you know your god's mind but I don't have the capacity to judge your god's mind. Ever heard of hubris. ********God states********* according to ancient goatherds, I don't for the life of me understand why I'm not convinced by something that every man and his dog has a different interpretation for. I must be simple.
This did nothing to clarify whatever in the world you originally tried to say. It only added another layer of confusion.
Your god knew from before he thought about creating anything that he was going to kill every living thing on one of the planets he created with a flood, he also knew that he would promise never to do it again. That makes him the universes greatest hypocrite. He knew he would do it and planned his apology for after he did it, what a LIAR.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Once again you fail to answer how killing someone doesn't violate their free will. You can ramble all day about how your god couldn't blink goodness into the existence of his creations because he couldn't violate their free will but he felt justified in destroying their free will by killing them. I'm a bit sad that anyone is comfortable with that, it just makes world wars possible.
That was not the justification or the incentives for either world war. In fact if the bible was universally obeyed there could not have been any war. There is nothing inconsistent with what I have said and revelation. I am tired of haveing to repeat the same points that are rejected for insuffecient reasons (mainly because you can't understand biblical concepts and you expect somekind of moral system you can't justify or explain).



Are you now claiming that your god didn't plan any of this? He just fly's by the seat of his pants even though he knows full well EXACTLY what will happen? Are you serious? Get outa here!!!!!! He knew before he created Adam and Eve that he would destroy the Earth and then promise never to do it again by water, just what sort of hypocrite is your god? The monks who invented Benedictine are my most favoured religious people of all time, that reminds me I need a bottle.
That is exactly what I am claiming, and the bible, and new testament scholars, and philosophers, and reality. If God made creation that could only choose the path of belief. That would be violate his pupose of creating a being that could freely choose or reject him. That type of creation of course would naturally include people that don't choose him and suffer for it. This is avery little understood issue but I will tell you what I have concluded. From God's perspective he knows exactly what is going to happen the second he acts, that however does not deminish in any way the freewill and responsability from our perspective. To make the point you are trying to make you have to know things that are unknowable. You have to know that God could have created a world that had more good in it or less suffering and that still through freewill the same amount or more people would have believed. You don't. You would have to know that the exact amount of suffering and misery (mostly caused by us) isn't the exact ratio necessary to produce the most faith. You don't etc....... What is it that jusfies your warm and fuzzy expectations of God or reality?

Oh dear, play the heartstring song. I'm sorry but your god is allegedly capable of anything, he in fact is described in the bible as having the EXACT attributes (doesn't that strike you as a bit odd) required for such a god to be capable of creating everything. But now your saying that he voluntarily limits his capacities because if he didn't then most of the stories written about him don't make sense and they must make sense or all of your life is a waste. You and others love to compare your god to US, like he's the same and I must agree, he was created by ancient man in the same form as the leaders, rulers, kings, despots, petulant brats that they had had contact with or knowledge of.
This is the last time I will deal with this same distorted logic. If God can do anything except restrict his actions. Then he is still restricted by a restriction on his restrictions. Claiming that God can do anything says nothing about what he will do. Let me put it a different God chose to acuate certain actions and not acuate others. Christ as God on earth chose to limit himself. According to you he couldn't do that either. You are introduceing a definition for omnipotent that is not consistent with the biblical term or logic either. Your definition is a self refuting ones that dies a death of a thousand qualifications. It is in effect nothing.


I have no idea what seminars you are lieing about, but this concept that your god is somehow so insecure that he can at a whim kill people and animals and plants because what he knew would happen actually did happen, because that is how he created things is a seminar to far for you. If you tried to think about your god, you might be surprised. If a god exists, it's not the one you worship, it's not some p1ssant ,petty, spoiled, bureaucrat that dominates your life. I suggest a walk on the real side.
If your are excluded from heaven will you be suprised. Being that God/ Christ is overwhelmingly view as the highest standard of conduct and compassion in the history of man your statements say more about you than they do about God. Even unbelievers admit this:
"[The character of Jesus] has not only been the highest pattern of virtue, but the strongest incentive to its practice, and has exerted so deep an influence, that it may be truly said, that the simple record of three short years of active life has done more to regenerate and to soften mankind, than all the disquisitions of philosophers and all the exhortations of moralists."
William Lecky One of Britain’s greatest secular historians.

He was the meekest and lowliest of all the sons of men, yet he spoke of coming on the clouds of heaven with the glory of God. He was so austere that evil spirits and demons cried out in terror at his coming, yet he was so genial and winsome and approachable that the children loved to play with him, and the little ones nestled in his arms. His presence at the innocent gaiety of a village wedding was like the presence of sunshine.
No one was half so compassionate to sinners, yet no one ever spoke such red hot scorching words about sin. A bruised reed he would not break, his whole life was love, yet on one occasion he demanded of the Pharisees how they ever expected to escape the damnation of hell. He was a dreamer of dreams and a seer of visions, yet for sheer stark realism He has all of our stark realists soundly beaten. He was a servant of all, washing the disciples feet, yet masterfully He strode into the temple, and the hucksters and moneychangers fell over one another to get away from the mad rush and the fire they saw blazing in His eyes.
He saved others, yet at the last Himself He did not save. There is nothing in history like the union of contrasts which confronts us in the gospels. The mystery of Jesus is the mystery of divine personality.
– James Stewart, Scottish theologian


Once again you claim to know your god's mind. Theists do it constantly all the time proclaiming that nobody can know god's mind, when will you ever get it. So you know your god's mind but I don't have the capacity to judge your god's mind. Ever heard of hubris. ********God states********* according to ancient goatherds, I don't for the life of me understand why I'm not convinced by something that every man and his dog has a different interpretation for. I must be simple.
This is just nuts. How is saying that the bible states that God said whatever a sign of pride? God insists you must and will know his mind on certain issues or points. It also says that the Holy Spirit will lead (believers) into all truth. However no one can know a significant portion of his infinate knowledge. This is so simple I think you are playing confused on purpose.

Your god knew from before he thought about creating anything that he was going to kill every living thing on one of the planets he created with a flood, he also knew that he would promise never to do it again. That makes him the universes greatest hypocrite. He knew he would do it and planned his apology for after he did it, what a LIAR.
There is a running joke amongst Christian apologists that the Atheist position can be accurately stated as: "I don't believe in God and I hate him" Looks pretty accurate in this case. You arrogantly suggest moral superiority as you use inaccurate claims and reasons to attack and ridicule the only possible justification for the morality society needs desperately. The whole time assuming a position that has absolutely no competent way to justify or even define morallity in a meaningful way. You curse what billions love and proclaim the greatest concept ever known to man and found worthy by the greatest minds in history, as a vile concept. God help you. As it is impossible to reason with hate, I am not sure how much further this going.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
That was not the justification or the incentives for either world war. In fact if the bible was universally obeyed there could not have been any war. There is nothing inconsistent with what I have said and revelation. I am tired of haveing to repeat the same points that are rejected for insuffecient reasons (mainly because you can't understand biblical concepts and you expect somekind of moral system you can't justify or explain).

theocracy...the antithesis of free will
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
There is a running joke amongst Christian apologists that the Atheist position can be accurately stated as: "I don't believe in God and I hate him" Looks pretty accurate in this case. You arrogantly suggest moral superiority as you use inaccurate claims and reasons to attack and ridicule the only possible justification for the morality society needs desperately. The whole time assuming a position that has absolutely no competent way to justify or even define morallity in a meaningful way. You curse what billions love and proclaim the greatest concept ever known to man and found worthy by the greatest minds in history, as a vile concept. God help you. As it is impossible to reason with hate, I am not sure how much further this going.

I suspect there is a certain animosity against people who claim to possess the truth by way of God's authority and proceed to pass judgement on others based on that authority. Then if things go bad, they themselves aren't accountable as they were only acting according to God's will.

It's like claiming to know what is right and wrong without taking any responsibility for it. I'm not saying this is true of all Christians but this seems true of enough that it becomes a general perception.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
I suspect there is a certain animosity against people who claim to possess the truth by way of God's authority and proceed to pass judgement on others based on that authority. Then if things go bad, they themselves aren't accountable as they were only acting according to God's will.

It's like claiming to know what is right and wrong without taking any responsibility for it. I'm not saying this is true of all Christians but this seems true of enough that it becomes a general perception.

:clap

frubalicious....
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
1robin please explain to us how killing someone ensures their capacity and continued use of free will?
This is getting old........ I tell you what, you find where I made the specific claim that freewill is granted eternally and I will answer your question. Quit makeing up positions that I never claimed to support.
 
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1robin

Christian/Baptist
I suspect there is a certain animosity against people who claim to possess the truth by way of God's authority and proceed to pass judgement on others based on that authority. Then if things go bad, they themselves aren't accountable as they were only acting according to God's will.

It's like claiming to know what is right and wrong without taking any responsibility for it. I'm not saying this is true of all Christians but this seems true of enough that it becomes a general perception.
As someone who spent 27 years as a non Christian and 17 as one, and so know way more than you do about the subject. My sense of duty and responsability has increased dramatically since I became a Christian. Things now produce a sence of shame I can't remember even haveing before. You insinuation that actually being responsable to a God as opposed to being ultimately responsible to no one produces less responsibility is an illogical conclusion.
 
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cablescavenger

Well-Known Member
A recent thread entitled "Are Athiests Racist?" got me thinking...

1. If you divided people into 2 groups, the religious and the non-religious, which group would have more racists in it?

And question 2...

2. If being a particular race caused a group to be more likely to be religious or non-religious, which of these groups would be more racist against the other?

Whatever your thoughts, I'd like to hear why you think this to be the case.

(for the record... I do NOT think race (color) is a factor in determining if you are more likely to be religious or non-religious... 2. is a hypothetical question).
Some individuals are, most are not.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Some individuals are, most are not.
I won't weigh in on who has the most racism because there are too many variables to make an accurate claim. I will say that non-theistic evolution supplies a justification for racism that at least Christianity and to a lesser extent Judaism and Islam in my opinion do not. In fact the idea of the equality of all men came straight from Christianity. Atheism by itself doesn't actively suggest racism however it removes belief in a system that argues against it. Hence the subtitle, "On the origin of species by means of natural selection or the preservation of favored races in the struggle for life."*There is really no probability that the "races"* would be equal. In fact, the whole notion runs counter to all evolutionary theory and to the whole science of biology.
http://www.jameshartforcongress.com/prometheus/chapIV.htm
 
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waitasec

Veteran Member
As someone who spent 27 years as a non Christian and 17 as one, and so know way more than you do about the subject. My sense of duty and responsability has increased dramatically since I became a Christian. Things now produce a sence of shame I can't remember even haveing before. You insinuation that actually being responsable to a God as opposed to being ultimately responsible to no one produces less responsibility is an illogical conclusion.

i'm sorry to hear that
 

beerisit

Active Member
As someone who spent 27 years as a non Christian and 17 as one, and so know way more than you do about the subject. My sense of duty and responsability has increased dramatically since I became a Christian. Things now produce a sence of shame I can't remember even haveing before. You insinuation that actually being responsable to a God as opposed to being ultimately responsible to no one produces less responsibility is an illogical conclusion.
This really only means that for you and many, many others, religion is the only possibility for you to live an honest, responsible, caring and loving life and I am very happy that you have found it. It is at the same time, sadly, an indictment of your basic character that you can't live such a life without it. The problem that you still seem to have is that because you didn't possess the strength of character needed to live such a life without religion you assume, incorrectly, that no-one can.
I can.:rolleyes:
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
This really only means that for you and many, many others, religion is the only possibility for you to live an honest, responsible, caring and loving life and I am very happy that you have found it. It is at the same time, sadly, an indictment of your basic character that you can't live such a life without it. The problem that you still seem to have is that because you didn't possess the strength of character needed to live such a life without religion you assume, incorrectly, that no-one can.
I can.:rolleyes:
I said no such thing. I swear an atheist thinks he knows more about what other people are thinking than those people themselves, and God as well. It is the height of arrogance and desperation to warp what other people say in an attempt to make it mean what you choose. My morality before Christ was at least as acceptable as the average persons. The point I actually was makeing is that it went from normal to a higher state after conversion. Your missrepresentation of what I said is pathetic. There is no logical way to suggest that a book (God) that heightens morallity is actually a bad thing. Only the desperate distorted logic of a critic could do this.
 

beerisit

Active Member
I said no such thing. I swear an atheist thinks he knows more about what other people are thinking than those people themselves, and God as well. It is the height of arrogance and desperation to warp what other people say in an attempt to make it mean what you choose. My morality before Christ was at least as acceptable as the average persons. The point I actually was makeing is that it went from normal to a higher state after conversion. Your missrepresentation of what I said is pathetic. There is no logical way to suggest that a book (God) that heightens morallity is actually a bad thing. Only the desperate distorted logic of a critic could do this.
An atheist sounds suspiciously like an unjustified generalisation, but don't let honesty stop you.
at least as acceptable: to whom? To the king of objective morality? If so why change?
A book that heightens morality for you apparently, not a book that heightens morality.
desperate distorted logic or the considered opinion of an honest man.:p
 

Fiddler

Lerner
I certainly feel to say atheism is boring,it is dull. There is no fun in it, expecting miracles won't mean anything for you.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
By what objective means is morality measured?
By the means of it's coming from the only source that can produce them or not. Do you guys go home at night and try to figure out new ways to overcome this objective morality idea? It kind of seems that way they way they are posted. (that last sentence is strangely worded by me)
 
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