Whose 'logic' is it anyway?

[Thief]

And some believe they are Napoleon Bonaparte.

And implication was what?...Napolean thought he was God?

Or were you actually trying to make some other point?

 

[Me Myself]

That's the same thing as saying that billions of Christians are "highly illogical" .. another over simplification of the issues involved.

We all have higly ilogical moments, and most of us have higly ilogical beliefs. That doesn´t mean we cannot be higly logical too.

Take me for example: I honestly believe that merely by holding a pendrive I´ll erase or permanently damage it. That´s ridiculous! (but in my defense, it´s true :ninja: )

 

[Looncall]

And implication was what?...Napolean thought he was God?

Or were you actually trying to make some other point?

The point is that people have all sorts of delusions. Saying that you believe something is in no way evidence that it is so. Even if everyone believed something, it could still not be true. So, saying one believes something cuts no ice at all and might as well be omitted.

In a way, it is insulting as it is assuming unearned authority.

 

[Koldo]

Like I say, we don't know the full nature of the human soul..
I've given you my opinion .. and you've given me yours

PS. I can't 'purify' your soul by bringing you closer to God .. that's between you & God
How can God logically purify your soul if you refuse Him, without making you into a 'zombie' ?

Define the process of 'purification' so i can tell you.
What does it mean to be 'purified'?
You seem to have a particular definition that strays very far from mine, otherwise, i don't think you would have said what you did.

 

[Me Myself]

God revealed to me tonight in a dream that 2+2=5.

only human that are like children would believe it is 4! Of course it makes sense to our petty equations today, but that´s like the explanations the kids do that make sense to themselves.


Everything in society would be better if we just made 2+2=5 without thinking a lot about it. Imaging how much mathematics, and thus everything in our lives would improve by this! PREACH MY GOSPEL!!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You're very demanding .. depends what you mean by 'free-will' ..

I mean whatever you mean by "choice" in this sentence:

PS. Saying that God should have put us all in paradise without question does not give us any choice, does it?

also .. I'm not a Divine authority, so I could answer simply that I don't know .. the same as you'd have to answer about whether there's 'a god' or not..

Sure, you can say you don't know, but then this means you can't claim that you know it's important to God that we have free will here on Earth.

However, if you want my opinion, the answer's yes! We will be free to choose .. but as there has already been some separation of souls, and a few other differences with this worldly life, evil will not predominate .. it wouldn't be heaven otherwise, would it

Okay... so then you agree that we could still have free will even with much less evil than we see here on Earth.

This implies that the universe we experience now is an imperfect creation. Therefore, it is the product of an imperfect creator (if it's the product of a "creator" at all).

 

[idav]

\
This implies that the universe we experience now is an imperfect creation. Therefore, it is the product of an imperfect creator (if it's the product of a "creator" at all).

What is existence being perfect supposed to imply? Is there a standard that existence didn't achieve based on the creators standards or whos?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What is existence being perfect supposed to imply? Is there a standard that existence didn't achieve based on the creators standards or whos?

Well, however perfection is measure, Heaven is supposed to be better than Earth.

Also, in most Christian belief systems that I'm familiar with, sin is supposed to be "missing the mark" established by God and Heaven is supposed to be free from sin, so in that system, Heaven meets the creator's standards and Earth doesn't.

 

[not nom]

God trumps us in every sense, therefore God is the ultimate trump card in debate.

yet god never says a single. *******. word.

it's all just humans using the concept for whatever purpose they currently need it for.. and of course, those who need to do that, don't like smart people who pay attention. cue the crying, the end.

 

[The Wizard]

The atheist talk of logic in trying to explain away God ,Religion or Spirituality is a moot point.

Whose logic are we talking about here - God's or human's?

What may seem logical to us is only so because we only understand our own logic.

Think of a tribe comprised of children - their leaders would make the rules based on their own logic - to them it would all be commonsense and correct yet an adult could easily prove them wrong.

How about animal logic? - would a human be able to tell the leader of the Wolf Pack the correct way to do things, and how could a human possibly know anyway?

The same is true of God.

Statements such as 'the concept of God defies logic therefore it is just a delusion' are erroneous as they are based on the logical fallacy of human logic being correct.

God exists otherwise how else can you explain anything?

Um.. I think you mentioned it, but let me rephrase it to, "the concept of God defies THEIR understanding and rules of logic"....

 

[muhammad_isa]

Okay... so then you agree that we could still have free will even with much less evil than we see here on Earth.

Yes .. as a consequence of 'the education' that we experience here in this life .. it's not magic, hey presto and we're in heaven .. you have to want to go to heaven and hence try, at least..
You wouldn't expect a person to become a medical doctor without going through the necessary education, would you?
We are here in this created world, to spiritually ascend .. those that deny that which is hidden cannot ascend, by definition

 

[idav]

Well, however perfection is measure, Heaven is supposed to be better than Earth.

Also, in most Christian belief systems that I'm familiar with, sin is supposed to be "missing the mark" established by God and Heaven is supposed to be free from sin, so in that system, Heaven meets the creator's standards and Earth doesn't.

If you created the perfect creature and then told it not to kill anyone, what the thing does is not due to an imperfection of the creation. You've given the creature the freedom to disobey, perfect or not the outcome would be uncertain.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes .. as a consequence of 'the education' that we experience here in this life .. it's not magic, hey presto and we're in heaven .. you have to want to go to heaven and hence try, at least..

For the purposes of this discussion, we're assuming a god with limitless power; there can be as much "magic" in the arrangement as he wants.

What you're describing aren't physical limits; you're describing decisions of God's that reflect on his character.

You wouldn't expect a person to become a medical doctor without going through the necessary education, would you?

Becoming a doctor is about acquiring the knowledge and skills. If a person could get those things magically, then I wouldn't make her go through eight years of school just so she could "put in her dues" or something like that.

We are here in this created world, to spiritually ascend .. those that deny that which is hidden cannot ascend, by definition

Ah... so this life is a sort of filter to separate the wheat from the chaff?

If that's the case, then it suggests an obvious question: can't God make chaffless wheat? Why would he create people who he knows are doomed to Hell (or whatever) if he doesn't want them to be doomed this way?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If you created the perfect creature and then told it not to kill anyone, what the thing does is not due to an imperfection of the creation. You've given the creature the freedom to disobey, perfect or not the outcome would be uncertain.

Why would it be uncertain? The only sources of uncertainty would be the result of your design, or would be inherent in the end product despite your best intentions because of limitations in your ability to control them. We can't assume that second source of uncertainty for an omniscient, omnipotent God, so that only leaves the first possibility: we have the capacity for evil because God intentionally designed it into us. He was free to do otherwise, but chose not to.

 

[idav]

Why would it be uncertain? The only sources of uncertainty would be the result of your design, or would be inherent in the end product despite your best intentions because of limitations in your ability to control them. We can't assume that second source of uncertainty for an omniscient, omnipotent God, so that only leaves the first possibility: we have the capacity for evil because God intentionally designed it into us. He was free to do otherwise, but chose not to.

If it were intentionally designed that way then our imperfection isn't due to a imperfect design. When a designer designs something with the ability to disobey then it wouldn't be a perfect design until it killed someone or at least ate some forbidden fruit.

 

[PolyHedral]

If it were intentionally designed that way then our imperfection isn't due to a imperfect design. When a designer designs something with the ability to disobey then it wouldn't be a perfect design until it killed someone or at least ate some forbidden fruit.

And therefore...?

 

[idav]

And therefore...?

If
then
else
else
end....

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If it were intentionally designed that way then our imperfection isn't due to a imperfect design. When a designer designs something with the ability to disobey then it wouldn't be a perfect design until it killed someone or at least ate some forbidden fruit.

If an engineer undersizes the structural elements in a building he designs, has he not made a mistake until it actually collapses?

And for an omnipotent, omniscient creator, there is no such thing as an unintentional design. If you have the power of perfect foresight then, by definition, all outcomes of your actions are foreseen.

 

[idav]

If an engineer undersizes the structural elements in a building he designs, has he not made a mistake until it actually collapses?

If he designed it to collapse then it needs to be put to the test.

And for an omnipotent, omniscient creator, there is no such thing as an unintentional design. If you have the power of perfect foresight then, by definition, all outcomes of your actions are foreseen.

I sort of agree but I have a bit of a different view on omnipotence and omniscience. I think being all powerful is only in potential and omniscience doesn't necessarily mean intelligent. In which case God is as retarded as his creation even with having that much potential power.

 

[PolyHedral]

I think being all powerful is only in potential and omniscience doesn't necessarily mean intelligent.

You're right; it short-circuits intelligence. The omniscient entity will achieve its goals in the most optimum fashion possible; which defeats the point of having intelligence.

(IOW, intelligence - the ability to predict the future through inference - is unnecessary, since intelligence has some possibility of being wrong. )