Why are Indians not more outspoken more about racism in India?

[Debater Slayer]

He was an idealistic fool for certain.

The British in their haste to exit India after 200 years of rule drew an arbitrary line dividing India and Pakistan called Radcliffe Line (strange as it may seem that line divided some houses such that going from one room to another would be same as going from India to Pakistan and vice versa). The Partition of India caused huge riots to break out because of vast number of refugees going past each other from one nation to another.

Do you know what the idealist fool did? He sat in middle of the riot. When riots broke out in Calcutta following India's independence from Great Britain, Gandhi sat almost in middle of the riot, and fasted, till rioteers stopped. This fast was one of the most stunning demonstrations of the moral power for which he was justly famous. As Lord Mountbatten, then Governor-General of India, wrote to him "In the Punjab we have 55,000 soldiers and large scale rioting on our hands. In Bengal our forces consist of one man, and there is no rioting."

I hope we have more such fools in a world where Nobel Peace Prize winners are mute about genocide in their country.

namaste

A_B

That doesn't change the irrationality of some of his other stances, such as the one I mentioned regarding Jews and Hitler. Almost everyone has good and bad qualities, and Gandhi was no exception. He may have done a lot of good things, but I believe he was neither a saint nor the beacon of peace and enlightenment that some seem to claim he was.

 

[sayak83]

That doesn't change the irrationality of some of his other stances, such as the one I mentioned regarding Jews and Hitler. Almost everyone has good and bad qualities, and Gandhi was no exception. He may have done a lot of good things, but I believe he was neither a saint nor the beacon of peace and enlightenment that some seem to claim he was.

Lets not hijack this thread.

 

[Amani_Bhava]

That doesn't change the irrationality of some of his other stances, such as the one I mentioned regarding Jews and Hitler. Almost everyone has good and bad qualities, and Gandhi was no exception. He may have done a lot of good things, but I believe he was neither a saint nor the beacon of peace and enlightenment that some seem to claim he was.

I do not claim he was a saint. He was a very fallible human.

We made him our saint. We did not ask him to be made a saint elsewhere. Tear down his statue at Westminster.

For some unknown reason on international forums Indians are always forced to defend their history and culture.

But if we get aggressive a ban follows -

Can we ask why the British not accept moral responsibility for the mess that was Sykes-Picot agreement and which is the underlying cause of conflict in Middle East?
A century on: Why Arabs resent Sykes-Picot
Unintended consequences

Can we ask why Thomas Jefferson had sex with an underage slave girl (I believe nowadays that is called raping a minor)
Perspective | Sally Hemings wasn’t Thomas Jefferson’s mistress. She was his property.

Can we ask why US carried out nuclear tests on innocent and unwilling Marshall Islanders
A ground zero forgotten
The Legacy of U.S. Nuclear Testing in the Marshall Islands | HuffPost

Can we ask why Australians hunted aborigines?
List of massacres of Indigenous Australians - Wikipedia

Can we ask why Churchill starved 3 million Bengalis to death in 1942?
BBC - Soutik Biswas's India: How Churchill 'starved' India

Can we?

If an American or a Britisher do not have to answer probing questions about a shameful episode in the past why do we have to? Why is this contentious line of questioning even allowed? Why doesn't the person who blames Gandhi for not being a saint first ask that about Jefferson or Churchill .. one a rapist and one a racist abomination.

Please leave this line of questioning in an international forum is my only request. All nations have had episodes of darkness. All nations worship heroes with feet of clay.

Let us unite though our questions and conversation not divide.

namaste

A_B

.

 

[Jumi]

Which african nations have warred with India? Surely that peaks my interest!

Indian UN troops participated in the Congo against rebels and Belgium... so you could say one or none.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Indian UN troops participated in the Congo against rebels and Belgium... so you could say one or none.

Those are rebels, not African nations

 

[Jumi]

Those are rebels, not African nations

Right, and it was under UN...

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Your link is a pay portal.

The damn link is from the BBC

www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-34265882

I know reading is hard, but before you make baseless anecdotes on what "you think," actually challenge the evidence first. Gandhi's grandson actually corroborates the critique of Gandhi's racism.​

 

[Epic Beard Man]

In South Africa during the time that Gandhi was there, there were really 3 racial groups, (officially black, white and coloured) the privileged white, the in-between Indians (indentured labour, and some business/trade) , and the enslaved Africans.

Racism these days is more subtle than in previous generations, and I personally don't know enough about South Africa nor Gandhi at the time to comment. I do know Gandhi fought for more rights for the Indians, but could well have ignored the Africans plight at the time too.

In India itself there is a lot of interstate 'rivalry' just as there is in other places. There are some pretty vehement people with regard to such things in most countries. The way the backward 'hillbillies' are stereotyped in America falls into the same category to me. Here in Canada the way some people treat our brethen from Newfoundland who have come here to western Canada just to make a better living for themselves is often despicable.

(BTW, I have yet to figure out why so many people can't copy the spelling of Gandhi when it's right in front of them. In my elementary classes, I categorized that as mis-copying, not misspelling. It happens too often to be merely that.)

Excuse the misspelling. But this is bigger than Gandhi really because Indians are still practicing racism against African students.

African victims of racism in India share their stories

 

[Jumi]

It was just speculation. Geronimo was an incredible racist against Mexicans, but given what's happened to him, I don't blame him in some respect for ending up feeling that way.

In my opinion you should blame him, because otherwise you will start to feel the same as him.

Sometimes personal trauma can turn a person racist.

It's just a lack of perspective people choose when they lack coping mechanism to non-sensible things that happen to them. Should I be racist against my own ethnic group, because they've caused me trauma as a kid?

So maybe you're saying racism with Gandhi is akin with racism along the lines of Samuel Clemens and the time he lived in? Correct me if I'm mistaken.

Yes. The quotes from him are textbook case from 1800-WW2 colonial racist mindsets.

A guy who lived during the early 1900s was racist?

Exactly.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I do not claim he was a saint. He was a very fallible human.

We made him our saint. We did not ask him to be made a saint elsewhere. Tear down his statue at Westminster.

For some unknown reason on international forums Indians are always forced to defend their history and culture.

But if we get aggressive a ban follows -

Can we ask why the British not accept moral responsibility for the mess that was Sykes-Picot agreement and which is the underlying cause of conflict in Middle East?
A century on: Why Arabs resent Sykes-Picot
Unintended consequences

Can we ask why Thomas Jefferson had sex with an underage slave girl (I believe nowadays that is called raping a minor)
Perspective | Sally Hemings wasn’t Thomas Jefferson’s mistress. She was his property.

Can we ask why US carried out nuclear tests on innocent and unwilling Marshall Islanders
A ground zero forgotten
The Legacy of U.S. Nuclear Testing in the Marshall Islands | HuffPost

Can we ask why Australians hunted aborigines?
List of massacres of Indigenous Australians - Wikipedia

Can we ask why Churchill starved 3 million Bengalis to death in 1942?
BBC - Soutik Biswas's India: How Churchill 'starved' India

Can we?

If an American or a Britisher do not have to answer probing questions about a shameful episode in the past why do we have to? Why is this contentious line of questioning even allowed? Why doesn't the person who blames Gandhi for not being a saint first ask that about Jefferson or Churchill .. one a rapist and one a racist abomination.

Please leave this line of questioning in an international forum is my only request. All nations have had episodes of darkness. All nations worship heroes with feet of clay.

Let us unite though our questions and conversation not divide.

namaste

A_B

.

Tu quoque is hardly convincing or indicative of taking responsibility for one's own actions. Gandhi and his supporters are accountable for their actions and beliefs regardless of the rest of the world's faults.

Nevertheless, I will refrain from further pursuing this discussion for no other reason than that I don't want this thread to be fully derailed.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

But while much of India's anti-blackness can be traced back to a colonial hangover, it is also fuelled by our own indigenous strain of "colourism", one that predates European theories of racial superiority. Last week, former Bharatiya Janata Party MP Tarun Vijay went on an Al Jazeera programme to talk about the recent spate of attacks. “If we were indeed racist, why would all the entire south – you know Kerala, Tamil, Andhra, Karnataka – why do we live with them?,” he said. “We have blacks…black people around us.” In his attempt to defend India from charges of anti-blackness, Vijay inadvertently laid bare the full extent of India’s problem with skin colour-based bigotry - our othering of not just black Africans but also of the darker-skinned citizens from our own country. It’s not hard to guess who the "we" in that statement is - the fairer, upper caste North Indian Hindus that form the BJP’s core constituency, and who have for ages thought of themselves as the template for the "true Indian". Everyone else, whether it’s Dalits and lower caste citizens from across the country, or the Dravidian residents of the southern parts of the country (both associated, though not entirely accurately, with darker skin colour), are merely tolerated. These two strains of bigotry - race and caste - combine to create a society where darkness is, at best, treated as a personal failing, something that you must strive to overcome. At its worst, it leads to dehumanisation and, eventually, violence.

"The land of Gandhi can never be racist": is India in denial about its attitude to skin colour?

White people who have racism have tolerated blacks in the South for centuries. I know for a fact some of the Sikhs that own 7-elevens and motels think "we all are alike." The same can be said about Hindus here in California.

 

[Amani_Bhava]

Excuse the misspelling. But this is bigger than Gandhi really because Indians are still practicing racism against African students.

African victims of racism in India share their stories

Not addressed to me but I am trying to understand the question. Hence writing.

There is racism across the world. It is also there in India. Reprehensible though it is .. why is it a question? And if it is a question why do I not see the same question about other countries where a part of the population are racists?

Why does racism in India merit a separate discussion?

namaste

A_B

 

[Curious George]

White people who have racism have tolerated blacks in the South for centuries. I know for a fact some of the Sikhs that own 7-elevens and motels think "we all are alike." The same can be said about Hindus here in California.

Broad strokes

 

[Epic Beard Man]

You haven't seen the news in Indian news channels lately.....
Gandhi was not God. Very few people in the early 1900s thought of black Africans as civilized. He was taught by the British in colonial schools and later in London after all. He also thought that it would be against the interests of Indian migrants to mix up their legal rights as guaranteed by the British as members of the colonial British empire with that of the far harder fight to gain rights for black Africans in Africa. If you want to know more, please read "Gandhi before India" by RC Guha.

Never said Gandhi was a god, but I used a popular figurehead in Indian history, regardless, this doesn't change the fact that India has a racial problem.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Not addressed to me but I am trying to understand the question. Hence writing.

There is racism across the world. It is also there in India. Reprehensible though it is .. why is it a question? And if it is a question why do I not see the same question about other countries where a part of the population are racists?

Why does racism in India merit a separate discussion?

namaste

A_B

I've brought up racism in the United States before people just hate discussing it although people like to discuss the redundant issues of religion. I bring up racism in India because it needs to be discussed. Just because racism happens across the world it doesn't change the fact that it shouldn't be discussed. I've encountered racism from Sikhs and Hindus while shopping at these convenience stores. I've already read about the experiences of Africans in India I'm perplexed at the idea of how a people that is as dark as my skin pigmentation can exhibit the same racism as some of their white counter-parts. Why is it reprehensible than African cannot marry an Indian woman but a white person can? Why do Indians look poorly on black Africans and Americans? These are things that perplex me considering that these people are as dark and even darker than me.

 

[sayak83]

I've brought up racism in the United States before people just hate discussing it although people like to discuss the redundant issues of religion. I bring up racism in India because it needs to be discussed. Just because racism happens across the world it doesn't change the fact that it shouldn't be discussed. I've encountered racism from Sikhs and Hindus while shopping at these convenience stores. I've already read about the experiences of Africans in India I'm perplexed at the idea of how a people that is as dark as my skin pigmentation can exhibit the same racism as some of their white counter-parts. Why is it reprehensible than African cannot marry an Indian woman but a white person can? Why do Indians look poorly on black Africans and Americans? These are things that perplex me considering that these people are as dark and even darker than me.

What has racism got to do with skin color? People from one region of India may often get aggressively targeted when they move to another part of India. Heard its the same in many other countries as well where regional cultures are heterogeneous. Anything whatsoever that differentiates you from the majority may single you out as vulnerable and "ripe for targeted assault" so as to speak. That's how it is everywhere.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Broad strokes

No broad strokes on my end. I lived it as many others who look like me have.

A nice little article can expound on what I'm saying:

FOUNTAIN: Black economic virtue flows one way: out of our community

 

[sayak83]

I've brought up racism in the United States before people just hate discussing it although people like to discuss the redundant issues of religion. I bring up racism in India because it needs to be discussed. Just because racism happens across the world it doesn't change the fact that it shouldn't be discussed. I've encountered racism from Sikhs and Hindus while shopping at these convenience stores. I've already read about the experiences of Africans in India I'm perplexed at the idea of how a people that is as dark as my skin pigmentation can exhibit the same racism as some of their white counter-parts. Why is it reprehensible than African cannot marry an Indian woman but a white person can? Why do Indians look poorly on black Africans and Americans? These are things that perplex me considering that these people are as dark and even darker than me.

Also you must be joking if you belief Westerner whites do not face racism from Indians or Chinese. They do and with as much frequency as it is the other way round. I am yet to come across a culture where there does not exist extremely negative stereotypes and swear words against every other group/race/ethnicity.

 

[Curious George]

No broad strokes on my end. I lived it as many others who look like me have.

A nice little article can expound on what I'm saying:

FOUNTAIN: Black economic virtue flows one way: out of our community

Well I have met plenty of Hindus in California that run contrary to such examples. While I agree that the problem exists your way of addressing it is no different than the way many address Islam. By focusing on the problems and generalizing them to the whole group. That is broad strokes.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

What has racism got to do with skin color?

Because it perplexes me that people who are classed as minority in the states, suffer from similar racial stereotypes, exhibit the same racial aggression as those that impart the same racism on them? I can ask about the same colorism that exists in the African-American community but it has always perplexed me as a kid and even as an adult why such occurs. I've also an Indian co-worker with dual citizenship and I've asked why. Apparently my friend "A" states that Africans and African-Americans are perceived poorly in his country, I assumed due to colonialism. But this perception continues to persist. As per the links I've supplied African students are also experiencing some unfortunate incidents of racism in India so it does matter.