Why are Indians not more outspoken more about racism in India?

[Epic Beard Man]

The caste system is a problem but racism is as well....

Sure, I've seen some (and I say some as in one person) speak about the caste system but never really come out and speak about it en masse. To the credit of some grass roots movements there have been some that speak about the nature of the caste system as a colonial effort that has infected India. For the many faiths that exist there who believe in love and respect for all, people are sure slow to foot on getting rid of racism and the caste system. I'm more so disturbed that a people who has brown skin like me can refer to others who are liked brown skin in a pejorative manner. Mahatma Ghandi for example a revered leader, thought bad about south Africans:

"According to the book, Gandhi described black Africans as “savage,” “raw” and living a life of “indolence and nakedness,” and he campaigned relentlessly to prove to the British rulers that the Indian community in South Africa was superior to native black Africans."

What did Mahatma Gandhi think of black people?

More about Ghandi:

"In 1904, he wrote to a health officer in Johannesburg that the council "must withdraw Kaffirs" from an unsanitary slum called the "Coolie Location" where a large number of Africans lived alongside Indians. "About the mixing of the Kaffirs with the Indians, I must confess I feel most strongly."

Interesting as a Hindu patriarch he believed this way...I'm curious what other Hindus think about this considering he is a leader.

 

[Mindmaster]

I have to say that's not surprising, given that people are often racist toward people in their neighboring countries who might have the closest skin colors. You have to also know that in South Africa lot of Indians were part of the anti-apartheid movement. There's a documentary about Indians in jail in S.A. that had somethings of interest, I will try to look into it if I find it tonight.

While I don't support racism in any context, you have to realize how often India has been at war with various Muslim and African nations. It's not so much racism as people attacking them and them disliking them, lol.

List of wars involving India - Wikipedia

 

[Shaul]

Your link is a pay portal. I won’t pay so I can’t know what book this quote is coming from. Further the quotes provided are out of context and useless as provided and the interpretation given I find suspect. Mohandas Gandhi fought strenuously against racial segregation in South Africa. Since he was himself from India he championed the rights of his fellow Indian expatriates in South Africa, who are strangely enough referred to as Colored in South Africa. It may well be that Gandhi was fighting against the forcing of Indians into “ghetto” communities. Communities in common with nativist Africans. The objections being against the injustice put upon all those being forced into those communities, not that he objected to inter racial cohabitation. The comments regarding the actions of some of the nativist Africans as “savage”, etcetera may be about how some of the Africans reacted to Indians being forced into their communities, something the Indians were not the blame for. I can’t say because there is not information here to comment. The bottom line is you are providing a case that lacks evidence and presents dubious claims and interpretations.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I'm wondering if something happened to Gandhi some time in his life to make him feel that way.

 

[Vinayaka]

In South Africa during the time that Gandhi was there, there were really 3 racial groups, (officially black, white and coloured) the privileged white, the in-between Indians (indentured labour, and some business/trade) , and the enslaved Africans.

Racism these days is more subtle than in previous generations, and I personally don't know enough about South Africa nor Gandhi at the time to comment. I do know Gandhi fought for more rights for the Indians, but could well have ignored the Africans plight at the time too.

In India itself there is a lot of interstate 'rivalry' just as there is in other places. There are some pretty vehement people with regard to such things in most countries. The way the backward 'hillbillies' are stereotyped in America falls into the same category to me. Here in Canada the way some people treat our brethen from Newfoundland who have come here to western Canada just to make a better living for themselves is often despicable.

(BTW, I have yet to figure out why so many people can't copy the spelling of Gandhi when it's right in front of them. In my elementary classes, I categorized that as mis-copying, not misspelling. It happens too often to be merely that.)

 

[Jumi]

I'm wondering if something happened to Gandhi some time in his life to make him feel that way.

Why do you think something had to happen to him? At the time racist garbage was the norm.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Why do you think something had to happen to him? At the time racist garbage was the norm.

It was just speculation. Geronimo was an incredible racist against Mexicans, but given what's happened to him, I don't blame him in some respect for ending up feeling that way.

Sometimes personal trauma can turn a person racist.

So maybe you're saying racism with Gandhi is akin with racism along the lines of Samuel Clemens and the time he lived in? Correct me if I'm mistaken.

 

[Jumi]

While I don't support racism in any context, you have to realize how often India has been at war with various Muslim and African nations. It's not so much racism as people attacking them and them disliking them, lol.

List of wars involving India - Wikipedia

Huh? Most countries in Africa aren't even Muslim majority countries. There's only one war independent India had in Africa and it was against a country that acted against Indians living there...

 

[Nakosis]

"At the end of the day, we need images of ourselves for our own psychosocial well-being and not images of those who called us savages... May Gandhi fall that Africa may rise!"

Ghana's problem with 'racist' Gandhi

 

[Shaul]

Your link is a pay portal. I won’t pay so I can’t know what book this quote is coming from. Further the quotes provided are out of context and useless as provided and the interpretation given I find suspect. Mohandas Gandhi fought strenuously against racial segregation in South Africa. Since he was himself from India he championed the rights of his fellow Indian expatriates in South Africa, who are strangely enough referred to a Black in South Africa. It may well be that Gandhi was fighting against the forcing of Indians into “ghetto” communities. Communities in common with nativist Africans. The objections being against the injustice put upon all those being forced into those communities, not that he objected to inter racial cohabitation. The comments regarding the actions of some of the nativist Africans as “savage”, etcetera may be about how some of the Africans reacted to Indians being forced into their communities, something the Indians were not the blame for. I can’t say because there is not information here to comment. The bottom line is you are providing a case that lacks evidence and presents dubious claims and interpretations.

I wish to correct myprevious post. The Indians in South Africa I believe were called the “Colored”, not Black. I have edited my original post to correct this.

 

[SomeRandom]

A guy who lived during the early 1900s was racist? Colour me shocked. In other shocking news Hitler was not very fond of Jews.
Also Why would I care what Gandhi said or thought as a Hindu?

 

[Nakosis]

The caste system is a problem but racism is as well....

Sure, I've seen some (and I say some as in one person) speak about the caste system but never really come out and speak about it en masse. To the credit of some grass roots movements there have been some that speak about the nature of the caste system as a colonial effort that has infected India. For the many faiths that exist there who believe in love and respect for all, people are sure slow to foot on getting rid of racism and the caste system. I'm more so disturbed that a people who has brown skin like me can refer to others who are liked brown skin in a pejorative manner. Mahatma Ghandi for example a revered leader, thought bad about south Africans:

"According to the book, Gandhi described black Africans as “savage,” “raw” and living a life of “indolence and nakedness,” and he campaigned relentlessly to prove to the British rulers that the Indian community in South Africa was superior to native black Africans."

What did Mahatma Gandhi think of black people?

More about Ghandi:

"In 1904, he wrote to a health officer in Johannesburg that the council "must withdraw Kaffirs" from an unsanitary slum called the "Coolie Location" where a large number of Africans lived alongside Indians. "About the mixing of the Kaffirs with the Indians, I must confess I feel most strongly."

Interesting as a Hindu patriarch he believed this way...I'm curious what other Hindus think about this considering he is a leader.

But while much of India's anti-blackness can be traced back to a colonial hangover, it is also fuelled by our own indigenous strain of "colourism", one that predates European theories of racial superiority. Last week, former Bharatiya Janata Party MP Tarun Vijay went on an Al Jazeera programme to talk about the recent spate of attacks. “If we were indeed racist, why would all the entire south – you know Kerala, Tamil, Andhra, Karnataka – why do we live with them?,” he said. “We have blacks…black people around us.” In his attempt to defend India from charges of anti-blackness, Vijay inadvertently laid bare the full extent of India’s problem with skin colour-based bigotry - our othering of not just black Africans but also of the darker-skinned citizens from our own country. It’s not hard to guess who the "we" in that statement is - the fairer, upper caste North Indian Hindus that form the BJP’s core constituency, and who have for ages thought of themselves as the template for the "true Indian". Everyone else, whether it’s Dalits and lower caste citizens from across the country, or the Dravidian residents of the southern parts of the country (both associated, though not entirely accurately, with darker skin colour), are merely tolerated. These two strains of bigotry - race and caste - combine to create a society where darkness is, at best, treated as a personal failing, something that you must strive to overcome. At its worst, it leads to dehumanisation and, eventually, violence.

"The land of Gandhi can never be racist": is India in denial about its attitude to skin colour?

 

[Deidre]

Since racism broad brushes an entire race, there’s just never a place for it. No excuse for it. It disappoints me to learn that Gandhi was a racist?

 

[sayak83]

The caste system is a problem but racism is as well....

Sure, I've seen some (and I say some as in one person) speak about the caste system but never really come out and speak about it en masse. To the credit of some grass roots movements there have been some that speak about the nature of the caste system as a colonial effort that has infected India. For the many faiths that exist there who believe in love and respect for all, people are sure slow to foot on getting rid of racism and the caste system. I'm more so disturbed that a people who has brown skin like me can refer to others who are liked brown skin in a pejorative manner. Mahatma Ghandi for example a revered leader, thought bad about south Africans:

"According to the book, Gandhi described black Africans as “savage,” “raw” and living a life of “indolence and nakedness,” and he campaigned relentlessly to prove to the British rulers that the Indian community in South Africa was superior to native black Africans."

What did Mahatma Gandhi think of black people?

More about Ghandi:

"In 1904, he wrote to a health officer in Johannesburg that the council "must withdraw Kaffirs" from an unsanitary slum called the "Coolie Location" where a large number of Africans lived alongside Indians. "About the mixing of the Kaffirs with the Indians, I must confess I feel most strongly."

Interesting as a Hindu patriarch he believed this way...I'm curious what other Hindus think about this considering he is a leader.

You haven't seen the news in Indian news channels lately.....
Gandhi was not God. Very few people in the early 1900s thought of black Africans as civilized. He was taught by the British in colonial schools and later in London after all. He also thought that it would be against the interests of Indian migrants to mix up their legal rights as guaranteed by the British as members of the colonial British empire with that of the far harder fight to gain rights for black Africans in Africa. If you want to know more, please read "Gandhi before India" by RC Guha.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Also Why would I care what Gandhi said or thought as a Hindu?

Great question, I think. Gandhi was, aside from everything else, an overly idealistic fool, primarily because of his catastrophically unwise and dangerous belief that Jews should have succumbed to Hitler. Idealization of him seems to me to be as rosy-eyed as it is unreasonable.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

While I don't support racism in any context, you have to realize how often India has been at war with various Muslim and African nations. It's not so much racism as people attacking them and them disliking them, lol.

List of wars involving India - Wikipedia

Which african nations have warred with India? Surely that peaks my interest!

 

[Aldrnari]

Great question, I think. Gandhi was, aside from everything else, an overly idealistic fool, primarily because of his catastrophically unwise and dangerous belief that Jews should have succumbed to Hitler. Idealization of him seems to me to be as rosy-eyed as it is unreasonable.

Plus his whole thing with sex and bodily fluids. Dude was weird...

 

[Amani_Bhava]

You have posed several questions. I will give very brief answer to each one.

1 ) Gandhi visited South Africa on legal business to argue for his Indian clients. There he saw Indians being discriminated against. So he protested on behalf of Indians. Asking why he did not fight for blacks is like asking why did MLK not fight for gay rights. MLK was not into the fight for gay rights. Gandhi was not into the business of making S Africa free of all strictures and discrimination.
2 ) Gandhi, like any of us was a product of his times. At that time the collective thought was that blacks are not equal. He subscribed to the prevailing school of thought. Nothing wrong in it. Had he done so in 2000 it would have been an issue but not back in 1900.
3 ) People here are not slow to get rid of caste system. India is not one country but an agglomeration of thirty different countries each with a distinct culture and language. We have at least two thousand languages and eighteen official languages. Think of the Indian political model as what Europe aspires to be with EU.
In some of the states caste system has almost died out. In some they remain but with diminishing strength every passing decade. I predict that in two more generations or eighty more years there will be no caste system in India except in isolated pockets.
4 ) India has probably the world's largest affirmative action program whereby 50% of all government jobs (and thus 50% of all promotions too) go to backward castes. It is so lucrative to be a backward caste in India that some (like Patels and Jats) want to become a backward caste!!
5 ) India has a PM from backward classes and a President who is a Dalit. If this is not people voting en masse in favor of backward castes I do not know what is.

I have given a very brief answer. Each of these points can be vastly expanded and deserve their own thread.

Added point - The notion that all minorities have to like each other and fight for each other is Utopian. Do you mean Rohingyas in Burma must also fight for transgender rights in Burma? This idea is something I have never been able to wrap my head around.

namaste

A_B

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yeah, our ways are different from the Africans or the Europeans. We do not worry about what they do in their own country, but when they are in India, they should consider our susceptibilities. They said 'When in Rome, do as Romans do'. Friction arises when this is not done. Perhaps Indians would have no problem with natives anywhere. We have a strong family-based society. All Indians, whether Hindus or Muslims, will have problems with bohemian ways.

Mahatma Gandhi changed over time. Yes, there was a time when he wrote against the Africans, but Gandhi at 70 was not the same as Gandhi at 30. Nobody is. At 30, Gandhi was a typical Gujarati gent, he was not yet a 'mahatma'. His realization of 'oneness' came only when he was thrown out of the railways coach at Pietermaritzburg for being black. Now, one can hold it against Gandhi if one so likes.

 

[Amani_Bhava]

Great question, I think. Gandhi was, aside from everything else, an overly idealistic fool, primarily because of his catastrophically unwise and dangerous belief that Jews should have succumbed to Hitler. Idealization of him seems to me to be as rosy-eyed as it is unreasonable.

He was an idealistic fool for certain.

The British in their haste to exit India after 200 years of rule drew an arbitrary line dividing India and Pakistan called Radcliffe Line (strange as it may seem that line divided some houses such that going from one room to another would be same as going from India to Pakistan and vice versa). The Partition of India caused huge riots to break out because of vast number of refugees going past each other from one nation to another.

Do you know what the idealist fool did? He sat in middle of the riot. When riots broke out in Calcutta following India's independence from Great Britain, Gandhi sat almost in middle of the riot, and fasted, till rioteers stopped. This fast was one of the most stunning demonstrations of the moral power for which he was justly famous. As Lord Mountbatten, then Governor-General of India, wrote to him "In the Punjab we have 55,000 soldiers and large scale rioting on our hands. In Bengal our forces consist of one man, and there is no rioting."

I hope we have more such fools in a world where Nobel Peace Prize winners are mute about genocide in their country.

namaste

A_B