Why are people so quick to criticise the Catholic Church?

[Spiderman]

Despite being essentially forbidden from pursuing standard relationships, existing in environments that assure him a measure of privacy and authority, and often having frequent contact with many youngsters with no witnesses?

I have to wonder how you could know that.



Not as a reason not to investigate and enforce accusations of pedophily, no it isn't.

"There's absolutely no evidence that priests are more likely to abuse children than are other groups of men. The use and abuse of children as objects for the sexual gratification of adults is epidemic in all classes, professions, religions, and ethnic communities across the globe, as figures on child pornography, incest, and child prostitution make abundantly clear".
https://www.catholiceducation.org/e...ptions/9-myths-about-priestly-pedophilia.html

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Perhaps. But no other organisation goes so out of its way to protect alleged pedophiles, thereby increasing potential victims.
It's not like it can say in a court of law, but your honour! We fed so many homeless people this year. Even karma enthusiasts would balk at such a crappy defence.

Can you still blame the Church as a whole still even though Pope Francis is addressing the problem slowly?
Reading this and thought this interesting

 

[SomeRandom]

What do you mean by that [underlined part]? Which religious institution has not done wrong at times? And let me remind you that the CC hardly has a monopoly on pedophiles or trying to hide wrongdoings. Hinduism has had its own "issues" historically, so it's important not to forget that when blaming others.

Two wrongs don't make a right, so I'm not in any way excusing the many atrocities committed in the CC over it's nearly 2000 years of existence.

If an institution claims to be infallible in any context, it's going to come under specific scrutiny when it does wrong. As Stephen Fry once quipped during a debate
"Oh it's all very well for the Catholic Church to come up and say, well we didn't know any better, everyone else did the same (wrongs.) Then, what are you for?!"
And no institution, no individual even, ever claims to speak on behalf of Hinduism. All Catholics are beholden to the CC though.
The Catholic Church has historically claimed monopoly on morality. It has presumed to lecture the masses on matters such as Holiness and ethical conduct. It has claimed infallibility. No one made it do that, it made it's own bed, now it's crying that it has to sleep in it. I feel sorry for the laity Catholic population. Not so much for the CC specifically though.
Two rights similarly don't excuse a wrong. We don't pardon the pedophile just because he helped with some soup Kitchens.

 

[SomeRandom]

Can you still blame the Church as a whole still even though Pope Francis is addressing the problem slowly?
Reading this and thought this interesting

I'm not blaming the Church, I'm saying that they are facing the consequences of their own making.

 

[Estro Felino]

And here I thought Italy was the Popes Holy land and you were God's chosen children!

Lol...ask a Roman why they don't like to cross the Tiber...
kidding...we are Catholics...but Catholic priests are holier than the Vatican , I think...

 

[Spiderman]

If an institution claims to be infallible in any context, it's going to come under specific scrutiny when it does wrong. As Stephen Fry once quipped during a debate
"Oh it's all very well for the Catholic Church to come up and say, well we didn't know any better, everyone else did the same (wrongs.) Then, what are you for?!"
And no institution, no individual even, ever claims to speak on behalf of Hinduism. All Catholics are beholden to the CC though.
The Catholic Church has historically claimed monopoly on morality. It has presumed to lecture the masses on matters such as Holiness and ethical conduct. It has claimed infallibility. No one made it do that, it made it's own bed, now it's crying that it has to sleep in it. I feel sorry for the laity Catholic population. Not so much for the CC specifically though.
Two rights similarly don't excuse a wrong. We don't pardon the pedophile just because he helped with some soup Kitchens.

The Catholic Church claims its guided when defining a Dogma, which almost never happens. I'm 31, and in my lifetime not a single Dogma has been infallibly defined!

The Church never said the hierarchy is infallible when disciplining wayward clergy.

 

[SomeRandom]

The Catholic Church claims its guided when defining a Dogma, which almost never happens. I'm 31, and in my lifetime not a single Dogma has been infallibly defined!

The Church never said the hierarchy is infallible when disciplining wayward clergy.

No they have. They do it all the time in Australia. In fact they often go over the legal system. So they don't even have to make a claim publicly, their actions speak louder than words.

 

[metis]

If an institution claims to be infallible in any context, it's going to come under specific scrutiny when it does wrong.

It does not claim infallibility. "Ex Cathedra" is very rarely invoked by a pope and it only pertains to a specific teaching that must be established through scripture and/or tradition.

The Catholic Church has historically claimed monopoly on morality.

It has never done that so you really do not know what you're talking about and/or are inventing lies.

Two rights similarly don't excuse a wrong. We don't pardon the pedophile just because he helped with some soup Kitchens.

No one has claimed a pedophile should be pardoned, and the Church has taken a much stronger stand in recent years, which it should have taken long ago.

If your here just to show off anti-Catholic bigotry and throw out lies, then maybe look very carefully into your own soul. The Church has had many faults over the centuries, no doubt, but if one is not being honest then it's hypocritical to throw stones at it.

BTW, I ain't Catholic. Which denomination do you belong to?

 

[metis]

The Church never said the hierarchy is infallible when disciplining wayward clergy.

No they have.

The latter quote is just a bold-faced lie as the hierarchy does not claim such infallibility.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I'm not blaming the Church, I'm saying that they are facing the consequences of their own making.

The priests who molested isn't a product of the church, though.

That's like blaming the company because the manager went haywire before the boss found out. Then when the boss found out during change of management, it delayed addressing the problem in full.

Then the new boss steps in to clear up the company's mess, people rather blame the company and not the handful of people involved in the problem.

Pedophilia also not supported by Catholic doctrine.

Here's an excerpt of pope's* link,

While we can all agree that the hierarchy hasn't done enough, this claim is nevertheless false. When the Church's Code of Canon Lawwas revised in 1983, an important passage was added: "The cleric who commits any other offense against the sixth precept of the Decalogue, if the offense was committed with violence or threats, or publicly or with a minor who is under 16 years [now extended to 18 years], must be punished with just punishments, not excluding expulsion from the clerical state" (CIC 1395:2).

That would be a contradiction if the church made a crimes, tried to hide it, but the ironically preach to support its own historical and doctrinally prohibition of sexual misconduct in the church.

 

[metis]

All Catholics are beholden to the CC though.

False.

Yes, the Church has a role to teach what it thinks is correct, but Joe and Mary Parishioner have the right of discernment because it is their soul that is at stake.

There was an excellent book by a Catholic theologian that I read about three decades ago, and its title tells the story: "Let Your (Informed) Conscience Be Your Guide".

Capice?

 

[LuisDantas]

"There's absolutely no evidence that priests are more likely to abuse children than are other groups of men. The use and abuse of children as objects for the sexual gratification of adults is epidemic in all classes, professions, religions, and ethnic communities across the globe, as figures on child pornography, incest, and child prostitution make abundantly clear".
https://www.catholiceducation.org/e...ptions/9-myths-about-priestly-pedophilia.html

As a rebuttal it is quite timid. And that is perhaps laudable.

In any case, even if it is accurate (and it might very well be) it is no reason not to take measures to avoid, prosecute and punish the abuse when it does happen.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The Catholic Church claims its guided when defining a Dogma, which almost never happens. I'm 31, and in my lifetime not a single Dogma has been infallibly defined!

The Church never said the hierarchy is infallible when disciplining wayward clergy.

It's only when the Pope speaks in ex cathedra. Outside of that he's just a bishop expressing his personal professional opinion.

 

[metis]

In any case, even if it is accurate (and it might very well be) it is no reason not to take measures to avoid, prosecute and punish the abuse when it does happen.

But fortunately the Church under PF has done just that, and quite strongly so.

I was very disappointed in PB as he simply didn't do anywhere near enough, and my wife was so upset with his lack of taking action that my wife, a lifelong and very devout Catholic, stopped going to mass for quite a couple of months. PF has restored her confidence, and mine, but the battle against pedophiles must continue, and the indications at least here in the States is that it is doing just that.

 

[Estro Felino]

If your here just to show off anti-Catholic bigotry and throw out lies, then maybe look very carefully into your own soul. The Church has had many faults over the centuries, no doubt, but if one is not being honest then it's hypocritical to throw stones at it.

BTW, I ain't Catholic. Which denomination do you belong to?

Lol...I admire your defensive attitude before anti-Catholicism.
I do agree that anti-Catholicism is fueled by stereotypes...and since they're false, they don't bother me.

I can present my experience as a Catholic; I met very good, holy and charismatic priests in my life.
They can believe me, or not..that won't change reality.

 

[SomeRandom]

It does not claim infallibility. "Ex Cathedra" is very rarely invoked by a pope and it only pertains to a specific teaching that must be established through scripture and/or tradition.

I dunno. The CC seems to relish in infallibility whenever it debates "some atheist." And again, I must agree with Mr Fry's assessment. Then what are they even for?

It has never done that so you really do not know what you're talking about and/or are inventing lies.

Oh really? So when it, very infamously, took away condoms and sex ed in African countries, that's not the Church presuming to know what is morally right for others? When it frequently launches campaigns condemning abortion, that's not lecturing the masses on ethics is it?
Come on, it can't help itself.

No one has claimed a pedophile should be pardoned, and the Church has taken a much stronger stand in recent years, which it should have taken long ago.

Yes, well the Church is in again hot water over here for still giving convicted pedophile priests their fully paid pensions. There was even one of those "morally outraged" news stories on it. Their PR just can't seem to catch a break lately.

If your here just to show off anti-Catholic bigotry and throw out lies, then maybe look very carefully into your own soul. The Church has had many faults over the centuries, no doubt, but if one is not being honest then it's hypocritical to throw stones at it.

Aww the Catholic Church is being held accountable for its actions. How awful for it? Again, they're the ones who made their own bed, what do you want from me? Should I cuddle them and tell them it's all going to be alright?
Personally I'd start by comforting the victims of pedophile priests (of any denomination, Catholics don't have a monopoly on that, to be fair) but that's just me.

BTW, I ain't Catholic. Which denomination do you belong to?

None, personally. My ma's side of the family are all Catholic though. Oh, should I pull my punches now and refuse to criticize them because my family are Catholic?
Is that very fair?

 

[SomeRandom]

The priests who molested isn't a product of the church, though.

That's like blaming the company because the manager went haywire before the boss found out. Then when the boss found out during change of management, it delayed addressing the problem in full.

Then the new boss steps in to clear up the company's mess, people rather blame the company and not the handful of people involved in the problem.

Pedophilia also not supported by Catholic doctrine.

Here's an excerpt of pope's* link,

While we can all agree that the hierarchy hasn't done enough, this claim is nevertheless false. When the Church's Code of Canon Lawwas revised in 1983, an important passage was added: "The cleric who commits any other offense against the sixth precept of the Decalogue, if the offense was committed with violence or threats, or publicly or with a minor who is under 16 years [now extended to 18 years], must be punished with just punishments, not excluding expulsion from the clerical state" (CIC 1395:2).

That would be a contradiction if the church made a crimes, tried to hide it, but the ironically preach to support its own historical and doctrinally prohibition of sexual misconduct in the church.

When you have to have Royal Commissions just to get the institution moving, I don't care if it's run by the Buddha. The Church,one of the most powerful and richest institutions on the planet today, had to get its *** kicked for it to do anything. That doesn't really inspire confidence.
If the new Pope is serious about stamping out pedophilia and corruption and whatever else, then fantastic. I will gladly sing his praises.

 

[SomeRandom]

False.

Yes, the Church has a role to teach what it thinks is correct, but Joe and Mary Parishioner have the right of discernment because it is their soul that is at stake.

There was an excellent book by a Catholic theologian that I read about three decades ago, and its title tells the story: "Let Your (Informed) Conscience Be Your Guide".

Capice?

Well that's good. I'd hate for good decent Catholics to get drawn into the fray just because of the mistakes in the hierarchy. You mistake my criticism for anti Catholic sentiment. Not sure why, the Catholic Saints make frequent appearances in my prayers.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

When you have to have Royal Commissions just to get the institution moving, I don't care if it's run by the Buddha. The Church,one of the most powerful and richest institutions on the planet today, had to get its *** kicked for it to do anything. That doesn't really inspire confidence.
If the new Pope is serious about stamping out pedophilia and corruption and whatever else, then fantastic. I will gladly sing his praises.

Its not like the priest burped in the middle of Mass. Its a public issue too. PF is trying to figure how to make more defined ways to handle church practitioner offenses without, at the same time, breaking the seal of confession. That, and like any sin, a priest who wants to mend his sins would go to confession just as anyone else.

You have so many good priest out there affected by their peers crimes that its hard to find a solution without the church overstepping its own doctrines. While the church doesnt teach to disobey the law officials, ideally theyd hope offenders would confess. We dont know if that priest will do it again. Thats the assumptional bias of the public.

But, yes, for an offense like that, its good there are commissions to address the problem.

 

[Spiderman]

I dunno. The CC seems to relish in infallibility whenever it debates "some atheist." And again, I must agree with Mr Fry's assessment. Then what are they even for?


Oh really? So when it, very infamously, took away condoms and sex ed in African countries, that's not the Church presuming to know what is morally right for others? When it frequently launches campaigns condemning abortion, that's not lecturing the masses on ethics is it?
Come on, it can't help itself.


Yes, well the Church is in again hot water over here for still giving convicted pedophile priests their fully paid pensions. There was even one of those "morally outraged" news stories on it. Their PR just can't seem to catch a break lately.


Aww the Catholic Church is being held accountable for its actions. How awful for it? Again, they're the ones who made their own bed, what do you want from me? Should I cuddle them and tell them it's all going to be alright?
Personally I'd start by comforting the victims of pedophile priests (of any denomination, Catholics don't have a monopoly on that, to be fair) but that's just me.


None, personally. My ma's side of the family are all Catholic though. Oh, should I pull my punches now and refuse to criticize them because my family are Catholic?
Is that very fair?

A lot of Catholic Priests and Bishops are for condoms and abortion. Most Catholics contracept.

No one says Bishops are infallible in all their acts and words.