Why can't god reveal himself?

[Sir Doom]

(Post 1000 !)

Kilograts!

That seems to be what God is experiencing. I remember one time when I forgot that I wasn't God. It was very disorienting. But too painful to fully recall.

I try to remember to forget this every time I can't. That way I can. It rarely works more than a bunch of times.

Mostly I remember that I am the Chosen Fugue. I've tried transcendental medication but it only made it worse.

Haha, Chosen Fugue. It's perfect. Its almost like saying, "No, I'm not god. I'm just what god imagines himself as."

Also, just don't do any existential drinking with your transcendental medications.

 

[chinu]

Strange loopy logic here.

If the truth is "One with Me", then all those 'ignorant people' are god being ignorant.

Yes, we are

So you are saying that God is the billions of ignorant people, and that god manifests as billions of ignorant people to 'keep the world running'. Why would god choose to keep an ignorant form of suffering (his own !) running ?

Very well you can ask this question to yourself because you yourself did this in the beganing.
Like.. A boy who went to see the fair but didn't returned back home, because he was entangled by mind-bending things there.

You are also saying that you are god, but not ignorant. How does that work ? If you can see that everyone is god, and nearly everyone is ignorant and crazy, then surely you are ignorant and crazy too. You would have to be, because you say the truth is one.

Says God.. You are right because chinu too is ignorant and crazy.

Huh ? If the whole creation is god, and god is also the billions of ignorant suffering people ( which he must be, if the truth is 'Oneness'), then what the hell is god up to ? Self hatred ? Madness ?

You are very right, "God exploring outwards" / Creation / "We people" =is equal to= God up to self hatred, Or god in madness.

Why would god deliberately make himself ignorant and even insane ? If god is eternal, and most of him is ignorant and crazy, then it is god's nature to be ignorant and crazy. That is the unavoidable outcome of your 'logic'. So is this all god's mistake ? Or is god inherently unstable and prone to ignorance ? By your logic that must be the case.

Yes god himself did all this, Or in other words when you was one with god in the begainning.. you yourself/apophenia did all this.

Like the above mentioned boy who didn't returned back home because he was entangled in some fair, If am saying apophenia is entangled in this wordly fair, Will you agree ? NO.
Thus.. It means you are God in ignorant.

If you think about this carefully you will realise that there is no such thing as salvation,

All this is because of god in ignorant, God is light, Ignorant is darkness, Where there is light there is no ignorance, and where there is darkness there is no light/god.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Hi guys. I am absolutely convinced that God exists. However, I find that a lot of the time responses to this question are somewhat... lacking.

Obviously if God were as powerful as we claim, he could easily convince us that he exists. So why doesn't he? If believing in Him or not is so important, is he just being a jerk by hiding out? I mean, is it just a game of who get's lucky believing in and praying to the right God (because they were born to the right parents and brainwashed correctly)? Why doesn't a just God remedy this whole mess simply by revealing himself?

I believe this line of questioning is justified. "Non-believers" are constantly bombarded with the disdain of "believers." The overwhelming message seems to be "You don't believe in God therefore you are inferior." The believers are set up as God's chosen elect privileged with special understanding of God and salvation. It is as if they have somehow "earned" their electness and the other godless heathens are left behind (poor lost souls). They are to be pitied and if possible reclaimed.

I contend that concrete belief in God is not as important as most believers make it out. Heck, Satan and his followers believe in God. What good does it do them? I argue that it is not so much what you believe so much as what you DO about it.

I have heard the idea put forward that this life is a test. I agree. It is definitely a test. But a test of what? A test to see what we're really like. Previously we have existed in a state where we knew God and lived in his presence. Now we are being given an opportunity to see what kind of people we really are. What happens when we have no knowledge of God? What happens when we get thrown into the great mixer of sorrow, pain, and injustice we call life? Will we internalize and adhere to truths of character such as integrity, love, and compassion? Will we simply run around trying to win the rat race or will we actually seek to gain intelligence and light? We are definitely experiencing a test. But the test is not rendered more or less effective according to our initial or current beliefs.

I believe that a state of someone's beliefs about God is in itself almost meaningless as a judge of how well they are "passing the test." I think much better measures would be things like: "How closely do your actions align with your beliefs?" "How open or closed are you to changing and adapting your beliefs and behaviors?" "Do you seek to adapt your behaviors to what you believe or what you believe to your behaviors?" "How caught up are you in the love of material possessions?" "How driven are you by selfish behaviors as opposed to a desire to bless and serve others?"

Anyway, I am sure I could come up with hundreds of them. I bet you could come up with more than me. All of them would be much more relevant to your spiritual well being than "Do you believe in God?" Capiche?

 

[JustWondering]

Hi guys. I am absolutely convinced that God exists. However, I find that a lot of the time responses to this question are somewhat... lacking.

Obviously if God were as powerful as we claim, he could easily convince us that he exists. So why doesn't he? If believing in Him or not is so important, is he just being a jerk by hiding out? I mean, is it just a game of who get's lucky believing in and praying to the right God (because they were born to the right parents and brainwashed correctly)? Why doesn't a just God remedy this whole mess simply by revealing himself?

I believe this line of questioning is justified. "Non-believers" are constantly bombarded with the disdain of "believers." The overwhelming message seems to be "You don't believe in God therefore you are inferior." The believers are set up as God's chosen elect privileged with special understanding of God and salvation. It is as if they have somehow "earned" their electness and the other godless heathens are left behind (poor lost souls). They are to be pitied and if possible reclaimed.

I contend that concrete belief in God is not as important as most believers make it out. Heck, Satan and his followers believe in God. What good does it do them? I argue that it is not so much what you believe so much as what you DO about it.

I have heard the idea put forward that this life is a test. I agree. It is definitely a test. But a test of what? A test to see what we're really like. Previously we have existed in a state where we knew God and lived in his presence. Now we are being given an opportunity to see what kind of people we really are. What happens when we have no knowledge of God? What happens when we get thrown into the great mixer of sorrow, pain, and injustice we call life? Will we internalize and adhere to truths of character such as integrity, love, and compassion? Will we simply run around trying to win the rat race or will we actually seek to gain intelligence and light? We are definitely experiencing a test. But the test is not rendered more or less effective according to our initial or current beliefs.

I believe that a state of someone's beliefs about God is in itself almost meaningless as a judge of how well they are "passing the test." I think much better measures would be things like: "How closely do your actions align with your beliefs?" "How open or closed are you to changing and adapting your beliefs and behaviors?" "Do you seek to adapt your behaviors to what you believe or what you believe to your behaviors?" "How caught up are you in the love of material possessions?" "How driven are you by selfish behaviors as opposed to a desire to bless and serve others?"

Anyway, I am sure I could come up with hundreds of them. I bet you could come up with more than me. All of them would be much more relevant to your spiritual well being than "Do you believe in God?" Capiche?

The whole test theory doesn't really work for me. If a god created us, it would know our character. It wouldn't need to throw us into a messed up environment guaranteed to cause us pain and sorrow to determine how we would react. The only idea of god that really makes sense to me is that it doesn't care about humanity. It hasn't contacted us, doesn't want to be worshipped by us, doesn't have any special plans for us. To most people this scenario is depressing. However, if there is a god, this makes the most sense based on my observations of the real world.

 

[FearGod]

The whole test theory doesn't really work for me. If a god created us, it would know our character. It wouldn't need to throw us into a messed up environment guaranteed to cause us pain and sorrow to determine how we would react. The only idea of god that really makes sense to me is that it doesn't care about humanity. It hasn't contacted us, doesn't want to be worshipped by us, doesn't have any special plans for us. To most people this scenario is depressing. However, if there is a god, this makes the most sense based on my observations of the real world.

No our characters is according to our will,many atheists have converted to a religion which believe that god do exist and their characters have been changed accordingly.

Angels only got no choice but to obey god,but for us human,we got the free will.
Yes god can created us to be all faithful and good,but he wanted a creation with the free will,and that is humans,free will creation.

 

[JustWondering]

No our characters is according to our will,many atheists have converted to a religion which believe that god do exist and their characters have been changed accordingly.

Angels only got no choice but to obey god,but for us human,we got the free will.
Yes god can created us to be all faithful and good,but he wanted a creation with the free will,and that is humans,free will creation.

There is no such thing as "free will". Humans are wired to act in a certain way. Nature and nurture is what determines our character and decisions.

 

[FearGod]

There is no such thing as "free will". Humans are wired to act in a certain way. Nature and nurture is what determines our character and decisions.

would you please elaborate ,how nature and nurture determine our character.

 

[arthra]

If he did, no one would be skeptical anymore, right?

My view is that God has revealed Himself through His Messengers and Manifestations and we that is the generality of humanity is usually slow on the uptake.....We aren't listening but are preoccupied with our own limitations...

God has given man the eye of investigation by which he may see and recognize truth. He has endowed man with ears that he may hear the message of reality and conferred upon him the gift of reason by which he may discover things for himself. This is his endowment and equipment for the investigation of reality. Man is not intended to see through the eyes of another, hear through another's ears nor comprehend with another's brain.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 75

 

[Thief]

I like this one.

If you are God then you know everything. It's boring. So you create a realistic life game and then fragment yourself into that game, each piece not knowing who you really are. Then you can evolve and learn about the wonders of the universe, all the while not remembering that you created it.

 

[Thief]

And this one.

I'd like to give my take on the question 'Why doesn't God reveal himself'

He does reveal himself thru creation....but we say that's just creation

He reveals himself thru nature......but we say that's just nature

He reveals himself thru life....but we say that's just biology

He reveals himself in the form of a great human being (Jesus, Krishna, etc.).......but we say that's just another human

He reveals himself in the quietude of hearts/souls......but we only notice the external chatter

 

[Thief]

If God...being spirit...was to reveal Himself....
Your linear existence would take a permanent turn of direction.

Your freewill would be compromised.

So unless you've been chosen to lead others (Moses, Jesus, Muhammad...)
then your on your own til you die.
THEN you get to stand before Him.

 

[Katzpur]

If he did, no one would be skeptical anymore, right?

He did, but pretty much everyone was still skeptical.

 

[apophenia]

He did, but pretty much everyone was still skeptical.

That happened a lot in the 60s right ?

No-one ever believes tripstas.

 

[Cordoba]

If he did, no one would be skeptical anymore, right?

God gave us 2 special gifts:

1- An advanced intellect that enable us to think on the abstract level and reach the right conclusions with the right information

2- A free will to believe or disbelieve, and if we believe to obey or disobey

God wants us to get to know Him and believe in Him by our own free will for us to live a happy life here and in the Hereafter

If we use the gifts He gave us we would not be skeptical

 

[apophenia]

God gave us 2 special gifts:

1- An advanced intellect that enable us to think on the abstract level and reach the right conclusions with the right information

2- A free will to believe or disbelieve, and if we believe to obey or disobey

God wants us to get to know Him and believe in Him by our own free will for us to live a happy life here and in the Hereafter

If we use the gifts He gave us we would not be skeptical

Humans have -

1- An advanced intellect that enable us to think on the abstract level and reach the right conclusions with the right information

2- A free will to believe or disbelieve, and if we believe to obey or disobey, and if we don't believe, we resist the demand to obey.

3- Skepticism, so we wouldn't become so open-minded our brains fall out, and don't become obedient to unprovable belief.

 

[Cordoba]

2- <<and if we don't believe, we resist the demand to obey>>

Yes, that's part of free will

3- <<Skepticism, so we wouldn't become so open-minded our brains fall out, and don't become obedient to unprovable belief>>

No problem, but try to search for the right information in order to reach the right conclusions

 

[apophenia]

The right information is provable. 'Believing' isn't proof. Just because someone said so 1000 or 2000 years ago isn't proof. The fact that 1 million or even 1 billion people believe something is irrelevant (there are equal numbers believing different things, all convinced it is the 'right information'.

I began my path by studying self-hypnosis. I understand how 'programmable' the mind is, and how ideas can seem to be true, simply by the processes of suggestion and reinforcement.

'Experience' is totally variable, and also unverifiable.

So what are your criteria for 'right information' ?

 

[apophenia]

2- <<and if we don't believe, we resist the demand to obey>>

Yes, that's part of free will

It is also called having integrity and good sense.

 

[Cordoba]

what are your criteria for 'right information' ?

1- The source of "right information" which leads to true guidance must not be the "invention" of a human being. With this criteria you can exclude man-made religions, and books we know are written by men, because they themselves said so, as a human being who lived for say 100 years is not eternal and therefore was "preceded" by a more intelligent being

2- The next phase is to look for "divine books" claimed to be revealed from a divine (i.e. non-human) source.

3- Classify these books according to certain criteria like:

- Is there one or more versions of each "divine book"?

- Are there obvious contradictions in these "divine books"?

- Could these "divine books" be inspired and written by human beings, or are there clues in the text which makes it impossible for a human being to have known this information hundreds of years ago?

If you go through this process, I think you will end up with very few "divine books", and the next step would be to compare them in order to find out which one makes more sense

A deeper study of that "divine book" would lead to 1 of 2 conclusions: either one is convinced or one is not convinced

The next decision to take after that is a free decision to believe in a Creator or disbelieve, depending what conclusion was reached

Makes sense?

 

[apophenia]

1- The source of "right information" which leads to true guidance must not be the "invention" of a human being. With this criteria you can exclude man-made religions, and books we know are written by men, because they themselves said so, as a human being who lived for say 100 years is not eternal and therefore was "preceded" by a more intelligent being

There are no such religions or books. All religions are man-made.

2- The next phase is to look for "divine books" claimed to be revealed from a divine (i.e. non-human) source.

Why ? This is your explanation for finding the 'right information', and you begin by suggesting that we find books written by god ? You are saying right at the outset that only superstitious belief could possibly be the 'right information'.

3- Classify these books according to certain criteria like:

- Is there one or more versions of each "divine book"?

- Are there obvious contradictions in these "divine books"?

- Could these "divine books" be inspired and written by human beings, or are there clues in the text which makes it impossible for a human being to have known this information hundreds of years ago?

If you go through this process, I think you will end up with very few "divine books", and the next step would be to compare them in order to find out which one makes more sense

This process would exclude all religious books.

A deeper study of that "divine book" would lead to 1 of 2 conclusions: either one is convinced or one is not convinced

And strangely enough, the vast majority of believers who are 'convinced' choose the path which characterises their culture, community and family.

How many people born in muslim countries for example choose anything other than Islam ? The 'right information' here is that doing so is at least culturally suicidal (it will result in rejection from community and family, no job, no friends) and quite possibly actually suicidal, given the attitude to non-believers in muslim countries.

Given that, what you have is massive pressure to accept or be outcaste or killed.

How many people born in Italy choose Islam ?

How many people raised by the Amish become buddhists ?

Obviously, what we are really discussing is human socialisation and peer-group pressure. There is some variation on this now in the modern world, and a minority of western non-muslims choose religions which are other than the christianity they were born into. But that reflects the freedom offered in non-muslim countries. There are still very few young people in Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia who choose buddhism, and this is not evidence that they chose the right information after exhaustive study, it is merely symptomatic of being born into a culture which will not abide any other choice, and will in some instances punish apostasy severely.

The next decision to take after that is a free decision to believe in a Creator or disbelieve, depending what conclusion was reached

No, the decision is whether or not you wish to be considered part of the community, or face oppression and punishment, even death.

Makes sense?

Sure does. You are showing how massive cultural and psychological pressure results in towing the line which you must tow to be a viable social unit.

Nothing more.