Why can't God...

[nPeace]

That presumes that choosing to listen to God would end all suffering.
Sorry, but that is just too simplistic.

That's not what I was saying, but if everyone listened to and obeyed God, do you think there would be a need to bring destruction on the world - Armageddon? Would there be a need to declare the good news as a witness to all nations?
We have the example in the book of Jonah, to answer those questions.

I do everything I am supposed to be doing for God and that is why I am suffering so much right now.
If I had thought of myself, I would be having fun like everyone else around me.
Instead, my life has gone to wrack and ruin.

“The trials of man are of two kinds. (a) The consequences of his own actions. If a man eats too much, he ruins his digestion; if he takes poison he becomes ill or dies. If a person gambles he will lose his money; if he drinks too much he will lose his equilibrium. All these sufferings are caused by the man himself, it is quite clear therefore that certain sorrows are the result of our own deeds. (b) Other sufferings there are, which come upon the Faithful of God. Consider the great sorrows endured by Christ and by His apostles! .......

Those who declare a wish to suffer much for Christ’s sake must prove their sincerity; those who proclaim their longing to make great sacrifices can only prove their truth by their deeds. Job proved the fidelity of his love for God by being faithful through his great adversity, as well as during the prosperity of his life. The apostles of Christ who steadfastly bore all their trials and sufferings—did they not prove their faithfulness? Was not their endurance the best proof?

These griefs are now ended.”
Paris Talks, pp. 49-50

Not what I was saying. No

 

[Twilight Hue]

Why can't God, if He/She/It exists just create humans whom they know would want to exist instead of creating people who hate being here? Do they like seeing people suffer, is them being here even though they don't want to be here some type of practical joke for this being? Like gosh, why can't God just leave people alone? If a God's all knowing they should know exactly who to create since they would foresee who would want to be here and who would not want to be here, so it's not that difficult to just to create people who want to exist and leave alone those who don't want to exist and especially in the case of those who commit suicide it makes no sense why He would create those people at all.

It's why it's clear God is a mental sock puppet.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's not what I was saying, but if everyone listened to and obeyed God, do you think there would be a need to bring destruction on the world - Armageddon?

No, there would be no need to do that if everyone listened to and obeyed God, but I do not believe that is going to happen.
Something major could happen before the Kingdom of God is established on earth, but the whole world will not be destroyed.

 

[nPeace]

No, there would be no need to do that if everyone listened to and obeyed God, but I do not believe that is going to happen.
Something major could happen before the Kingdom of God is established on earth, but the whole world will not be destroyed.

I agree.
Only, I believe something major could will happen before the Kingdom of God is established on earth, but and the whole world will not be destroyed.

When the Bible uses the expression "world", in most cases, it is not referring to the earth, as in the globe, but refers to the system, or world of mankind alienated from God.
This world will definitely pass away.
(1 John 2:15-17) 15 Do not love either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; 16 because everything in the world - the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life - does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. 17 Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but the one who does the will of God remains forever.

 

[Trailblazer]

When the Bible uses the expression "world", in most cases, it is not referring to the earth, as in the globe, but refers to the system, or world of mankind alienated from God.
This world will definitely pass away.
(1 John 2:15-17) 15 Do not love either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; 16 because everything in the world - the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life - does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. 17 Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but the one who does the will of God remains forever.

That is correct, because only the one who does the will of God will have eternal life.

Baha’u’llah said the same about the world. If more people would adhere to what Jesus and Baha’u’llah said the earth would be completely transformed.

“By the righteousness of God! The world and its vanities, and its glory, and whatever delights it can offer, are all, in the sight of God, as worthless as, nay, even more contemptible than, dust and ashes. Would that the hearts of men could comprehend it! Cleanse yourselves thoroughly, O people of Bahá, from the defilement of the world, and of all that pertaineth unto it. God Himself beareth Me witness. The things of the earth ill beseem you. Cast them away unto such as may desire them, and fasten your eyes upon this most holy and effulgent Vision.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 304

 

[Jos]

One more thing I don't get is why God, if He/She/It exists doesn't allow people to be erased from existence, so that they just end their misery.

 

[Trailblazer]

One more thing I don't get is why God, if He/She/It exists doesn't allow people to be erased from existence, so that they just end their misery.

Do you mean why did God make our souls eternal? Why do we have to continue to exist after our body dies? Why do some people have to continue to be tormented in hell even after they die?

I do not really know, all I can do is surmise. God probably wanted to give everyone the opportunity to be happy, and if they are not happy in this world, the opportunity to be happy still exists in the afterlife.

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329

 

[nPeace]

That is correct, because only the one who does the will of God will have eternal life.

Baha’u’llah said the same about the world. If more people would adhere to what Jesus and Baha’u’llah said the earth would be completely transformed.

“By the righteousness of God! The world and its vanities, and its glory, and whatever delights it can offer, are all, in the sight of God, as worthless as, nay, even more contemptible than, dust and ashes. Would that the hearts of men could comprehend it! Cleanse yourselves thoroughly, O people of Bahá, from the defilement of the world, and of all that pertaineth unto it. God Himself beareth Me witness. The things of the earth ill beseem you. Cast them away unto such as may desire them, and fasten your eyes upon this most holy and effulgent Vision.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 304

It seems to me Bahaullah has more the idea that some religious people who pray for world peace do - that all men can change (be transformed), and hence bring world peace... through the teachings of Bahaullah, of course.

Whereas Christ and the Bible teaches that Jehovah's army, headed by Christ Jesus are inevitably destined for war against all nations, and this will result in worldwide catastrophe. (Zephaniah 1:14-2:3)

 

[nPeace]

Do you mean why did God make our souls eternal? Why do we have to continue to exist after our body dies? Why do some people have to continue to be tormented in hell even after they die?

I do not really know, all I can do is surmise. God probably wanted to give everyone the opportunity to be happy, and if they are not happy in this world, the opportunity to be happy still exists in the afterlife.

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329

I didn't know Bahais believed in the immortal soul, and eternal torment in Hellfire. That's not different to Christendom's doctrines.

As far as the Bible teachings go, I cannot honestly see any place where God made any part of man to live on after death, and be subject to everlasting torment in flames, or Hell.

God does allow man to die.
He does not hinder man's freedom of choice. That's why suicides, and death occur. No one is restricted.
However, God wants people to choose life, So he gives good news to all nations, and does so without partiality. Matthew 24:14

 

[Workman]

It's completely unreasonable for any God to expect fallible humans to figure out that they exist given the tons of claims about God and the tons of religions out there, so don't lecture to me about finding God when we can't even understand the supernatural and humans are fallible and limited in time, space and understanding... any God who expects me to somehow find him among the mess that is theism and the supernatural with all their varying claims and ideas about God is completely and utterly unreasonable.

Why is it unreasonable? because the tons of claims(they’re non-believers just like you) have taken you to believe them for instead by your own effort to find out YOUR truth about it!

All I keep hearing by you ‘Lot’..are FULL of excuses!

Such gullible beings you have become by your greed of knowing..instead by your own effort in it to understand...(WHY) its true for you and not ?them?.


I will leave at that!..so be it of your journey..go well and safe...hopefully you will understand one day..that there was absolutely nothing there at all until we had made it into something...get rid of everything that you know..then you will see clearly Absolute truth was Absolute Nothing.

 

[Workman]

It's why it's clear God is a mental sock puppet.

If I were you, I would be careful...
For where there is darkness...there I will be staring right at you..and when you hide from it...I will be hiding behind you...remember of whom I am NOT!..For I am NOT what you think..careful!

 

[Trailblazer]

It seems to me Bahaullah has more the idea that some religious people who pray for world peace do - that all men can change (be transformed), and hence bring world peace... through the teachings of Bahaullah, of course.

This transformation could also occur if people followed the teachings of Jesus, since they are essentially the same as the teachings of Baha'u'llah.

Whereas Christ and the Bible teaches that Jehovah's army, headed by Christ Jesus are inevitably destined for war against all nations, and this will result in worldwide catastrophe. (Zephaniah 1:14-2:3)

Baha'is believe that the great day of the Lord is already here, since Baha'u'llah was the Lord of Hosts.

Baha'is believe that The Day of Judgment is already upon us.
This Judgment of God

There may be a war against all nations that will result in worldwide catastrophe..

 

[Jos]

Why is it unreasonable? because the tons of claims(they’re non-believers just like you) have taken you to believe them for instead by your own effort to find out YOUR truth about it!

All I keep hearing by you ‘Lot’..are FULL of excuses!

Such gullible beings you have become by your greed of knowing..instead by your own effort in it to understand...(WHY) its true for you and not ?them?.


I will leave at that!..so be it of your journey..go well and safe...hopefully you will understand one day..that there was absolutely nothing there at all until we had made it into something...get rid of everything that you know..then you will see clearly Absolute truth was Absolute Nothing.

Humans are fallible that's why it's unreasonable.

 

[Trailblazer]

I didn't know Bahais believed in the immortal soul, and eternal torment in Hellfire. That's not different to Christendom's doctrines.

As far as the Bible teachings go, I cannot honestly see any place where God made any part of man to live on after death, and be subject to everlasting torment in flames, or Hell.

Baha’is do not believe in eternal torment in Hellfire. In short, we believe that hell is a state of the soul that is distant from God and heaven is the state of the soul that is close to God, and we can be in heaven or hell in this life as well as in the afterlife.

“They that have disbelieved in God and rebelled against His sovereignty are the helpless victims of their corrupt inclinations and desires. These shall return to their abode in the fire of hell: wretched is the abode of the deniers!” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp, 284-285

That passage means they will be distant from God because they disbelieved in God and rebelled against His sovereignty.

So what do you believe lives on after death? All Christians seem to have different beliefs on this subject.

God does allow man to die.

He does not hinder man's freedom of choice. That's why suicides, and death occur. No one is restricted.

However, God wants people to choose life, So he gives good news to all nations, and does so without partiality. Matthew 24:14

Yes, God allows man to kill their body but according to Baha’i beliefs, the soul cannot die. What do you believe on this?

If God wants man to choose life, do you mean eternal life, and if so what do you believe that is?

 

[Workman]

Humans are fallible that's why it's unreasonable.

Is that right? Fallible!..is that your excuse!..so I wonder how that became of you....how do you know that? You find where your problem started...

And I will tell you HOW fallible became of human kind....through SCIENCE and their methods and logics, for that has claimed you not by understanding through experiencing(but through experiment=science methods and logics) and than how did human kind make of their own mistakes from their own(science) work of themselves? You tell me!.
Science only knows anything that it wants but not what you NEED to know of yourselves....what now would you think is more important to know?

Science will make you to doubt yourself in your being in....firstly when I say ‘doubts’.
It means you’ve doubted your inner(selves)...you have second guessed your be in(being)!
Doubt means your selfishness for making yourselves look good through an easier way to be living in...for that, too, is by the work from science.

 

[Workman]

Jos!..you do not belong to them! You belong to God..do you know how I know that!..your name says it all about who You are...you learn through your experience...your a sensitive one, that is God that makes you sensitive...don’t be fooled by them..have faith in God..I have faith in you dear friend.

 

[nPeace]

Baha’is do not believe in eternal torment in Hellfire. In short, we believe that hell is a state of the soul that is distant from God and heaven is the state of the soul that is close to God, and we can be in heaven or hell in this life as well as in the afterlife.

“They that have disbelieved in God and rebelled against His sovereignty are the helpless victims of their corrupt inclinations and desires. These shall return to their abode in the fire of hell: wretched is the abode of the deniers!” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp, 284-285

That passage means they will be distant from God because they disbelieved in God and rebelled against His sovereignty.

So what do you believe lives on after death? All Christians seem to have different beliefs on this subject.

Yes, God allows man to kill their body but according to Baha’i beliefs, the soul cannot die. What do you believe on this?

If God wants man to choose life, do you mean eternal life, and if so what do you believe that is?

Thanks for sharing the Bahais view.
So you don't believe Hell is a torture chamber, just an eternal separation from God. So according to Bahai, we can be sepaate from God now, but for some, a time will come, when they will experience separation, for all eternity - everlasting.
Sounds like something Atheist will enjoy.

I believe what the Bible says about the soul, and passages such as Genesis 2:7, Ezekiel 18:4. Nowhere in the Bible do I see anything about the soul, contrary to this.
According to the Bible, the soul is the person, or life, and no part of man lives on after death, as the soul dies.

I believe when God says, 'Choose life', as is the case at Deuteronomy 30:19 I take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the curse; and you must choose life so that you may live,. . . he meant the life we have now, which is enriched when we listen to, and obey him.
However, other scriptures show that God wants us to have life everlasting, which is a gift from God, to those on the side of his sovereignty. (John 3:16, 36; 1 John 2:15-17, 25)

The scriptures show that everlasting life is from God.
For those who will be in heaven with God - the lamb's wife - they are given an nonperishable body, like God, and Christ.
For those living on earth forever, their life is sustained by God, and does not deteriorate from disease, or defects.
(1 Corinthians 15:35-49)

 

[loverofhumanity]

Why can't God, if He/She/It exists just create humans whom they know would want to exist instead of creating people who hate being here? Do they like seeing people suffer, is them being here even though they don't want to be here some type of practical joke for this being? Like gosh, why can't God just leave people alone? If a God's all knowing they should know exactly who to create since they would foresee who would want to be here and who would not want to be here, so it's not that difficult to just to create people who want to exist and leave alone those who don't want to exist and especially in the case of those who commit suicide it makes no sense why He would create those people at all.

For what it’s worth, I believe God sees the end in the beginning so he sees what will eventually become of us when we are created. So a person may at some point in time not want to be here like I did but that all changed and in time I became grateful I was born. For others it may take longer but I think in the end we will all attain supreme happiness.

 

[Jos]

Is that right? Fallible!..is that your excuse!..so I wonder how that became of you....how do you know that? You find where your problem started...

And I will tell you HOW fallible became of human kind....through SCIENCE and their methods and logics, for that has claimed you not by understanding through experiencing(but through experiment=science methods and logics) and than how did human kind make of their own mistakes from their own(science) work of themselves? You tell me!.
Science only knows anything that it wants but not what you NEED to know of yourselves....what now would you think is more important to know?

Science will make you to doubt yourself in your being in....firstly when I say ‘doubts’.
It means you’ve doubted your inner(selves)...you have second guessed your be in(being)!
Doubt means your selfishness for making yourselves look good through an easier way to be living in...for that, too, is by the work from science.

Humans are fallible and our senses are flawed and can't always be trusted.

Jos!..you do not belong to them! You belong to God..do you know how I know that!..your name says it all about who You are...you learn through your experience...your a sensitive one, that is God that makes you sensitive...don’t be fooled by them..have faith in God..I have faith in you dear friend.

Did God tell you this? First of all everyone learns through their experiences, so I'm not special when it comes to that and second of all, I'm sensitive sometimes and other times I'm not, just like a lot of other people, so IDK if God told you that but if he did, it's not special information.

 

[Trailblazer]

Thanks for sharing the Bahais view.
So you don't believe Hell is a torture chamber, just an eternal separation from God. So according to Bahai, we can be separate from God now, but for some, a time will come, when they will experience separation, for all eternity - everlasting.
Sounds like something Atheist will enjoy.

It might not be for all eternity because all people can progress in the spiritual world, according to Baha’i beliefs, so there is a change that those who are separated from God could change.

"Concerning your question whether a soul can receive knowledge of the Truth in the world beyond. Such a knowledge is surely possible, and is but a sign of the loving mercy of the Almighty. We can, through our prayers, help every soul to gradually attain this high station, even if it has failed to reach it in this world. The progress of the soul does not come to an end with death. It rather starts along a new line. Bahá'u'lláh teaches that great and far-reaching possibilities await the soul in the other world. Spiritual progress in that realm is infinite, and no man, while on this earth, can visualize its full power and extent."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, May 22, 1935)
Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File

I believe what the Bible says about the soul, and passages such as Genesis 2:7, Ezekiel 18:4. Nowhere in the Bible do I see anything about the soul, contrary to this.
According to the Bible, the soul is the person, or life, and no part of man lives on after death, as the soul dies.

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

That implies that the soul that has no sin will live, and I think that means it will have eternal life, whereas the soul that sins will not have eternal life (see below what i mean by eternal life).

I know what it says in the OT about the soul, that it is the breath of life, but where does it say that the soul dies when the body dies? If that was true, why did Jesus warn us about losing our soul?

Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Why would it matter if we lose our soul if our soul was not eternal?

I believe when God says, 'Choose life', as is the case at Deuteronomy 30:19 I take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the curse; and you must choose life so that you may live,. . . he meant the life we have now, which is enriched when we listen to, and obey him.
However, other scriptures show that God wants us to have life everlasting, which is a gift from God, to those on the side of his sovereignty. (John 3:16, 36; 1 John 2:15-17, 25)

The scriptures show that everlasting life is from God.
For those who will be in heaven with God - the lamb's wife - they are given an nonperishable body, like God, and Christ.
For those living on earth forever, their life is sustained by God, and does not deteriorate from disease, or defects.
(1 Corinthians 15:35-49)

So you believe that some people will live forever in bodies on earth and some will go to heaven and live forever in nonperishable bodies? I have a different interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15 I can share if you want to see it.

Baha’is believe that when the physical body dies, the soul ascends to the spiritual world and it takes on a new body made up of spiritual elements that exist in the spiritual realm, so it is akin to an imperishable body since it is eternal.

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

"And the answer to the fourth question: The centre of the Sun of Truth is in the supernal world--the Kingdom of God. Those souls who are pure and unsullied, upon the dissolution of their elemental frames, hasten away to the world of God, and that world is within this world. The people of this world, however, are unaware of that world, and are even as the mineral and the vegetable that know nothing of the world of the animal and the world of man." Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, pp. 194-195

The soul (spirit) of man is immortal so it can never be extinguished. All souls continue to exist forever, but some souls have eternal life and others don’t.

“The immortality of the spirit is mentioned in the Holy Books; it is the fundamental basis of the divine religions. Now punishments and rewards are said to be of two kinds: first, the rewards and punishments of this life; second, those of the other world. But the paradise and hell of existence are found in all the worlds of God, whether in this world or in the spiritual heavenly worlds. Gaining these rewards is the gaining of eternal life. That is why Christ said, “Act in such a way that you may find eternal life, and that you may be born of water and the spirit, so that you may enter into the Kingdom.” 2” Some Answered Questions, p. 223

“Likewise, the rewards of the other world are the eternal life which is clearly mentioned in all the Holy Books, the divine perfections, the eternal bounties and everlasting felicity….The rewards of the other world are peace, the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God in the world of eternity.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 224-225

Those people who are distant from God do not have eternal life, although their soul continues to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies.

“In the same way, the souls who are veiled from God, although they exist in this world and in the world after death, are, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, nonexisting and separated from God.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 243