Why can't God...

[Trailblazer]

I finally had some time so I decided I would respond to your posts today before I get back to some other posts that are newer.

I was only responding to what you said.
You said... It might not be for all eternity because all people can progress in the spiritual world, according to Baha’i beliefs, so there is a chance that those who are separated from God could change.
They seem like two different views. Can you explain.

I can see why that seemed contradictory. What I meant to say is that we will not have free will in the spiritual world so we will not be able to make choices and advance spiritually the way we can do in this world. We will be able to advance by the prayers of others and by the mercy of God, but if we have not acquired certain spiritual attributes in this world we will be spiritually handicapped and we will only be able to advance within certain parameters. That is how I understand it. This article explains it in more detail and the following is just a small excerpt from the longer article you can read on the link.

“Death is regarded as the shedding away of the physical frame but no more, the real part of the person is the soul, which is indestructible. In this there is nothing new, but the Bahá’í thought added another dimension to this idea. The soul is the sum total of the personality it is the person himself; the physical body is pure matter with no real identity. The person, having left his material side behind, remains the same person, and he continues the life he conducted in the physical world. His heaven therefore is the continuation of the pure life that he conducted in the physical world, and his hell is the continuation of the immoral life, which he conducted on earth. The effort to come nearer to God in the physical world continues with coming near God in the heaven of the mystical paradise. Remoteness from God in the physical life means remoteness in the world to come.

The challenge of life in this world continues in the world of spiritual reality as well, only that in the latter the meeting of this challenge is easier because the person is free from physical needs.

Bahá’u’lláh explains that since the mystery of death has such fateful effects, it better remains unrevealed, but he confides that far from being an occasion for grief, death is an opportunity for joy. For the soul is freed from the material form just like the bird is freed when the cage is broken.” Death and Dying in the Bahá’í Faith

So do you mean progress to change, as others pray for them? How so?

The way I understand the Baha’i Writings is that if people pray for other people then God can help them advance by His mercy:

"...... But we must always remember that our existence and everything we have or ever will have is dependent upon the mercy of God and His bounty, and therefore He can accept into His heaven, which is really nearness to Him, even the lowliest if He pleases. We always have the hope of receiving His mercy if we reach out for it."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, January 12, 1957)
Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File

I understand that's Bahaullah's interpretation, and the teaching of Bahai.
I understand it differently.
If Jesus says that those who do not obey, will not see life at all, how is that in harmony with the Bahai's interpretation?
One who disobeys dies. There is no life for that one, according to Jesus.
John 3:36  The one who exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; the one who disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.
Rather. it is the one who obeys, that get's everlasting life. Not both.

To me that means that you need not only have faith in Jesus but you also need to obey Jesus, which means following His teachings and laws. That is the same is true in the Baha’i Faith. We must first have faith in God through Baha'u'llah, and then we must obey God's teachings and laws.

Could you explain Genesis 2:7 to me.
By explain, I don't mean interpret it, but tell me what it says - even if you substitute words.
For example... I read... And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life [spirit]; and man became a living soul.

I see you added the word [spirit]. Is there a reason you added that word? What it says to me is that when man takes his first breath he becomes a living soul, but I believe that the soul comes into being at the moment of conception so that is before man takes his first breath. So maybe that means that man is not actually a living soul [alive] until he is born from the womb.

So to me, it says that the spirit is what made the man - the person / soul, alive. So spirit and soul, are not the same. The spirit animates the soul - that is, keeps it (he person / soul) alive. Therefore when the spirit ceases to animate the person / soul, it dies.

But you added the word spirit so that changes the meaning of the verse. What reason do you have to think that breath of life means spirit? I do not think that the spirit and the soul are different entities but rather they mean the same thing. The human spirit is the soul. Animals have a spirit but it is an animal spirit, not a soul.

So I believe that when the spirit/soul ceases to animate the body, the body dies, but the spirit/soul lives on in the spiritual world.

Ezekiel 18:4 ...The soul [person] who [that] sins is the one who will die.
Psalm 104:29 ...If you take away their spirit [breath of life], they [the soul] die and return to the dust.

The way I interpret that verse above is that the soul[person] who sins will die spiritually thus he will not have eternal life [nearness to God]. That has nothing to do with the death of the body; it is the death of the spirit [soul] because it loses eternal life.

Psalm 146:4 His spirit [breath of life] goes out, he [the soul] returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish.

When the breath of life goes out of his body, the body dies and he returns to the ground; On that very day the thoughts coming from his brain perish because he is body and brain are dead. However, consciousness continues because the soul (which is what is responsible for consciousness) lives on in the spiritual world.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then the dust [man] returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit [breath of life] returns to the true God who gave it.

The body returns to the earth and the soul[spirit] returns to the true God who gave it.

“If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 159

Can you please explain John 5:25-30 to me.

John 5:25-30

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

• The hour is coming, and now is, when the spiritually dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

• God has life in himself and so the Son also has life in himself.; and God has given Jesus the authority to judge humankind.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

• The hour is coming when those who are spiritually dead shall hear the voice of the Son on man. They that have done good (righteous deeds) will be resurrected to spiritual life and they that have done evil deeds will be damned (to hell).

30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

• That means that Jesus does the Will of the Father and can do nothing according to His own will. The judgment of Jesus is just because it is according to the Will of the Father who is just.

1 Corinthians 15:35-58

So what is sown? Is it not the person?
What dies? Is it not the person?
What is raised up? Is it not the person?

Who gives the body, according to scripture? Is it not God?
God gives it a body, as it pleases him.
The physical body belongs on the earth, and is of dust.
The spiritual body - which is second (given after the physical) belongs in heaven, and is spirit.
This is incorruptible - the immortal body, which God gives the person.

I am with you up to this point. The immortal body that God gives the person is the spiritual body that the person gets after the soul leaves the body and ascends to the spiritual world.

The person - the soul - the life - receives the body, according to scripture.

The person - the soul - the life - receives the spiritual body after the physical body dies and the soul ascends to heaven.

The same person - the same soul - the same life, that dies, according to the scriptures.
The same person - the same soul - the same life, that is raised up, according to the scriptures.

Isn't that what you read?

What I read is that after the body dies the soul is raised up to heaven and it gets another form, a spiritual body.

“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157

 

[Trailblazer]

Eternal life of the soul, as in, the person, yes... but how does the person live. Not as some disembodied ghost, or spirit, as Bahaullah says, but again, as a person that is raised from the dead, to life, and given a body, according to what scripture says.

Yes, the soul, which is the person himself, needs a body to be associated with; so when the soul is raised up into the spiritual world, it gets a body, a heavenly form made up of heavenly elements that exist in the heavenly realm:

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

 

[nPeace]

@Trailblazer now it's my turn to get back to you, later.
How are things with you? Did you manage to sort things out to be reasonably comfortable?

 

[Trailblazer]

@Trailblazer now it's my turn to get back to you, later.
How are things with you? Did you manage to sort things out to be reasonably comfortable?

No hurry back to me at all... I am still as busy as a beaver...

My life never settles down, at least not so far, but this lawsuit finally got settled, and I think we have new tenants for our rental and I think the tenant at our other rental house is going to start making payments on his back rent, so I am making some progress...
Our residence is still in dire need though and one of our cats has to go to the vet tomorrow, so it's always something.

I worry more about the cats than the house since they are living creatures and I love them whereas the house is just a house so it can always be fixed later since I have the money to hire the right people.

 

[firedragon]

Why can't God, if He/She/It exists just create humans whom they know would want to exist instead of creating people who hate being here? Do they like seeing people suffer, is them being here even though they don't want to be here some type of practical joke for this being? Like gosh, why can't God just leave people alone? If a God's all knowing they should know exactly who to create since they would foresee who would want to be here and who would not want to be here, so it's not that difficult to just to create people who want to exist and leave alone those who don't want to exist and especially in the case of those who commit suicide it makes no sense why He would create those people at all.

Excellent question. Theodicy.

 

[Trailblazer]

Excellent question. Theodicy.

Let me know when you find the answer...

 

[firedragon]

Let me know when you find the answer...

That will take a number of pages and several days. And good oily food.

 

[Trailblazer]

That will take a number of pages and several days. And good oily food.

Okay, I'll wait... I am in no hurry.

I also have some answers as to why we have to be here even if we do not want to be here, if you want to hear them, but it might take a while to get back to you.

 

[firedragon]

Okay, I'll wait... I am in no hurry.

I also have some answers as to why we have to be here even if we do not want to be here, if you want to hear them, but it might take a while to get back to you.

Yes. I would love to hear them.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes. I would love to hear them.

Okay, after I get some sleep and have some time I will write it up.

 

[firedragon]

Okay, after I get some sleep and have some time I will write it up.

I really appreciate that. And what you write, you should collect so that it is not wasted on a forum post. Soon you will have a book and you are an author. Not to make money, but as a thinker.

 

[Trailblazer]

I really appreciate that. And what you write, you should collect so that it is not wasted on a forum post. Soon you will have a book and you are an author. Not to make money, but as a thinker.

You have no idea how many Word documents I have and how many folders and sub-folders I have where they reside. Luckily I have an eidetic memory so I can usually find what I am looking for at the drop of a hat. There is no way I could post as much as I do if I had not saved what I write and research from the Baha'i Writings and the Bible in Word documents for easy access, and I tweak them as necessary for new posts.

 

[nPeace]

I finally had some time so I decided I would respond to your posts today before I get back to some other posts that are newer.

I can see why that seemed contradictory. What I meant to say is that we will not have free will in the spiritual world so we will not be able to make choices and advance spiritually the way we can do in this world. We will be able to advance by the prayers of others and by the mercy of God, but if we have not acquired certain spiritual attributes in this world we will be spiritually handicapped and we will only be able to advance within certain parameters. That is how I understand it. This article explains it in more detail and the following is just a small excerpt from the longer article you can read on the link.

“Death is regarded as the shedding away of the physical frame but no more, the real part of the person is the soul, which is indestructible. In this there is nothing new, but the Bahá’í thought added another dimension to this idea. The soul is the sum total of the personality it is the person himself; the physical body is pure matter with no real identity. The person, having left his material side behind, remains the same person, and he continues the life he conducted in the physical world. His heaven therefore is the continuation of the pure life that he conducted in the physical world, and his hell is the continuation of the immoral life, which he conducted on earth. The effort to come nearer to God in the physical world continues with coming near God in the heaven of the mystical paradise. Remoteness from God in the physical life means remoteness in the world to come.

The challenge of life in this world continues in the world of spiritual reality as well, only that in the latter the meeting of this challenge is easier because the person is free from physical needs.

Bahá’u’lláh explains that since the mystery of death has such fateful effects, it better remains unrevealed, but he confides that far from being an occasion for grief, death is an opportunity for joy. For the soul is freed from the material form just like the bird is freed when the cage is broken.” Death and Dying in the Bahá’í Faith

The way I understand the Baha’i Writings is that if people pray for other people then God can help them advance by His mercy:

"...... But we must always remember that our existence and everything we have or ever will have is dependent upon the mercy of God and His bounty, and therefore He can accept into His heaven, which is really nearness to Him, even the lowliest if He pleases. We always have the hope of receiving His mercy if we reach out for it."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, January 12, 1957)
Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File

To me that means that you need not only have faith in Jesus but you also need to obey Jesus, which means following His teachings and laws. That is the same is true in the Baha’i Faith. We must first have faith in God through Baha'u'llah, and then we must obey God's teachings and laws.

Still not adding up Trailblazer, and furthermore, are irreconcilable.

Let's break it down, bit by bit.
I'll highlight in color, what I find conflicting.

...we will not have free will in the spiritual world so we will not be able to make choices and advance spiritually the way we can do in this world.

We will be able to advance by the prayers of others and by the mercy of God, but if we have not acquired certain spiritual attributes in this world we will be spiritually handicapped and we will only be able to advance within certain parameters.

Questions
Can we at death, do anything at all, for example, can we make a decision, or put forth effort to will, and act?
Does spiritually handicapped mean, we can do some things, but not others, like think, but not act? Like what... What can we do?
How do prayers change the person? Does God change their heart so they can advance, or... How does that work?

According to Bahaulla...
The effort to come nearer to God in the physical world continues with coming near God in the heaven of the mystical paradise.

To quote you ...if people pray for other people then God can help them advance by His mercy:

I take it you are referring to departed souls, as people... Strange, but nonetheless, you are saying that people on earth will pray for people in heaven or hell? I don't know, but I would like to know how the process works... you say help them to advance, not advance them, so are you saying the one prayed for makes advancement with help? Thus is that person not able to advance... with effort, along with help?

Death is the opposite of life.
How does one get death, and still see life? It's incompatible.
Jesus said, 'the one who disobeys, will not see life, at all.' He did not say, the one who disobeys will be forever living - whether in Hell, or some other realm.

I see you added the word [spirit]. Is there a reason you added that word? What it says to me is that when man takes his first breath he becomes a living soul, but I believe that the soul comes into being at the moment of conception so that is before man takes his first breath. So maybe that means that man is not actually a living soul [alive] until he is born from the womb.

But you added the word spirit so that changes the meaning of the verse. What reason do you have to think that breath of life means spirit? I do not think that the spirit and the soul are different entities but rather they mean the same thing. The human spirit is the soul. Animals have a spirit but it is an animal spirit, not a soul.

So I believe that when the spirit/soul ceases to animate the body, the body dies, but the spirit/soul lives on in the spiritual world.

I added spirit in order to make it clear that two things are being spoken of.
I believe the spirit is the force of life, or life force, which is more than just breathing. When God breath the breath of life in the man, it allowed the man to keep breathing, but what keeps the man breathing?

No amount of breath of fresh air, will make anyone come alive. It is the spirit that keeps man breathing. Once that goes out, the breathing is not sustained, and the man dies.
Hence the Bible evidently links the two. (Job 34:14, 15) 14 If he fixes his attention on them, If he gathers their spirit and breath to himself, 15 All humans would perish together, And mankind would return to the dust.

Jesus said, (John 6:63) It is the spirit that is life-giving; the flesh is of no use at all. The sayings that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
I understand that you equate spirit with soul, and I can understand why one might think it safe to interpret them to be the same, but taking all the scriptures into consideration, as well as the context of those scriptures, I don't see how they can be the same.
Would you mind explaining why you see both as the same, other than that it is a teaching of Bahaullah.
Does it not conflict with the Bible?
(1 Thessalonians 5:23) . . .And may the spirit (πνεῦμα, ατος, τό - pneuma) and soul (ψυχή, ῆς, ἡ - psuché) and body (σῶμα, ατος, τό - sóma) of you brothers. . .

If you like, we can isolate this as a topic, and discuss it.
Why is it the Bible always separates the two? (Job 12:10)

The way I interpret that verse above is that the soul[person] who sins will die spiritually thus he will not have eternal life [nearness to God]. That has nothing to do with the death of the body; it is the death of the spirit [soul] because it loses eternal life.

So when you read the word die, in relation to a sinner, to you it always means spiritual death?
When Jesus died, and the faithful, you interpreted is as a bodily / physical death?
I don't understand... How does one arrive at that interpretation?

When the breath of life goes out of his body, the body dies and he returns to the ground; On that very day the thoughts coming from his brain perish because he is body and brain are dead. However, consciousness continues because the soul (which is what is responsible for consciousness) lives on in the spiritual world.

The body returns to the earth and the soul[spirit] returns to the true God who gave it.

“If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 159

What? Pardon me, Trailblazer.
Please excuse my astonishment.
The person, the soul has thoughts, but when the brain dies, those thought that come from the brain die, but the thought of the soul live on?

The scriptures do not say that Trailblazer!
I'm sorry, but I thing Bahais go too far in their taking liberty to make the scriptures say whatever they want... imo.

The scriptures say precisely, 'His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish.'
The scriptures say, also, '...the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it.'
The scriptures do not say, the soul returns to God.
I think we need to establish some clarity on the difference between the soul, and spirit.
Or do you think we might not reach a reasonable conclusion?

 

[nPeace]

John 5:25-30

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

• The hour is coming, and now is, when the spiritually dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

• God has life in himself and so the Son also has life in himself.; and God has given Jesus the authority to judge humankind.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

• The hour is coming when those who are spiritually dead shall hear the voice of the Son on man. They that have done good (righteous deeds) will be resurrected to spiritual life and they that have done evil deeds will be damned (to hell).

30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

• That means that Jesus does the Will of the Father and can do nothing according to His own will. The judgment of Jesus is just because it is according to the Will of the Father who is just.

I think the scripture in John 5:25 can be open to interpreting it as spiritual dead, based on Jesus' words in verse 24. However, I don't see how you can arrive at spiritual dead, regarding Jesus' words in verse 28, and 29.
Seems to me to do that, the Bahai has to take another liberty to interpret grave any way they wish.
How do you interpret grave?

I don't think we are allowing the Bible to speak to us, when we do that. To me, that seems to be putting our belief in the Bible.

Jesus said, 'the hour is coming, twice, in those verses. He appears to be speaking of two different occasions, based on the context.
The fact that Jesus says, 'Do not be amazed / marvel at this', shows that he is not speaking of anything spiritual, or figurative - something they may not be familiar with, or have to guess at, but something familiar to them (physical).

I am with you up to this point. The immortal body that God gives the person is the spiritual body that the person gets after the soul leaves the body and ascends to the spiritual world.

I don't think we quite agree on this Trailblazer. I don't agree that any soul leaves the body and ascends to the spiritual world.
Paul said, God give it a body, as he pleases, but what does he give the body? Not what left the earth and ascended to him (nothing did), but what God gives life to.
If we go back t the Garden of Eden, what did God give the body? "God formed man... from the earth... breathed into him the breath of life... the man became a living soul / person.
Man got the body. The spirit made him alive - a breather... reliant on oxygen to keep on.
Now, go back to heaven. What is raised up is given the spiritual body / spirit body. It does not require oxygen. It is self sustaining.

The person - the soul - the life - receives the spiritual body after the physical body dies and the soul ascends to heaven.

What I read is that after the body dies the soul is raised up to heaven and it gets another form, a spiritual body.

“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157

If the soul is immortal, and does not die, how is it "raised up to heaven"?

 

[nPeace]

Yes, the soul, which is the person himself, needs a body to be associated with; so when the soul is raised up into the spiritual world, it gets a body, a heavenly form made up of heavenly elements that exist in the heavenly realm:

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

Can you explain how "the soul is raised up into the spiritual world"?

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: I also have some answers as to why we have to be here even if we do not want to be here, if you want to hear them, but it might take a while to get back to you.

Yes. I would love to hear them.

I was thinking while riding my bike to work this morning that I already have the answers, because I posted them on this thread, so here are some of those answers:

God did not create people who don't want to be here. A man and woman had sex and created a child. Of course, God being All-Knowing knew what would happen to that child but God does not interfere with human free will.

There are times I wish I had never been born but luckily that is not all the time or most of the time; but life is tough, so it might have been easier to never have been born. But if I had never been born then I would not have an afterlife in the spiritual world, so living on this earth for a while is the price we have to pay in order to get to our final destination, which is glorious, more glorious than we can ever imagine.

#7Trailblazer, Aug 16, 2019

The material world of existence is a storehouse of suffering, and some of us suffer much more than others. It seems like some people skate through it with hardly any suffering at all, and if anything God does is unfair, that is it. I believe we only go through this life once, and we never come back here, and for that I can be grateful. The worst punishment would be having to come back here.

#8Trailblazer, Aug 16, 2019

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So, how do we handle having to be here when we do not want to be here? In the Baha’i Faith, we call these times we have to go through tests and difficulties, and they are supposed to help us grow stronger and become more spiritual, but that only world if we are able to sustain the weight of these tests and come out the other side. Not all people are strong enough to weather these storms of life.

Baha’is are also enjoined to be detached from all that is on earth, all save God, and if we are truly able to do that no test will break us. I strive towards this goal but I am not always successful. Every day is a struggle.

I just loved a sign I saw on the First Baptist Church:

“The struggle is real but so is God.”

 

[Trailblazer]

Still not adding up Trailblazer, and furthermore, are irreconcilable.

Let's break it down, bit by bit.
I'll highlight in color, what I find conflicting.

...we will not have free will in the spiritual world so we will not be able to make choices and advance spiritually the way we can do in this world.

We will be able to advance by the prayers of others and by the mercy of God, but if we have not acquired certain spiritual attributes in this world we will be spiritually handicapped and we will only be able to advance within certain parameters.

Questions
Can we at death, do anything at all, for example, can we make a decision, or put forth effort to will, and act?
Does spiritually handicapped mean, we can do some things, but not others, like think, but not act? Like what... What can we do?
How do prayers change the person? Does God change their heart so they can advance, or... How does that work?

Unfortunately, I do not have the answers to these questions. All I know is that we will not have free will *like we have in this world* so I am not sure exactly how we will advance. Baha’u’llah said we will be “a service on both worlds,” so that means we won’t just be sitting around doing nothing. Below is an excerpt from a longer prayer.

“Learn well this Tablet, O Aḥmad. Chant it during thy days and withhold not thyself therefrom. For verily, God hath ordained for the one who chants it, the reward of a hundred martyrs and a service in both worlds. These favors have We bestowed upon thee as a bounty on Our part and a mercy from Our presence, that thou mayest be of those who are grateful.” TABLET OF AḤMAD, p. 212

Spiritually handicapped means we will not have the spiritual qualities we need in order to do what we need to do, and it also means we will not be as close to God as we could be if we had these spiritual qualities.

I do not exactly how our prayers can change other people in the spiritual world but I assume God hears our prayers and answers them *when He chooses to* just as God does while we are still living in this world. From what I have read in non-scriptural accounts of the spiritual world, souls can help other souls who are less advanced than they are so I assume that God can also help them. The caveat is that if they do not want help they cannot be helped because God never forces people to love Him or be close to Him. That is why that letter about how to get to heaven that I quoted says “We always have the hope of receiving His mercy if we reach out for it."

So back to those who are spiritually handicapped... Let’s just say an atheist died and still insisted that God did not exist and/or that God was evil and/or let’s say that he was really attached to the material world and had no conception of spirituality. That person is not going to suddenly just realize God exists and God is good. If that was true, Jesus and Baha’u’llah would not have put so much emphasis on spiritual growth in THIS world.

40: O MY SERVANT! Free thyself from the fetters of this world, and loose thy soul from the prison of self. Seize thy chance, for it will come to thee no more. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 36

Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

According to Bahaulla...
The effort to come nearer to God in the physical world continues with coming near God in the heaven of the mystical paradise.

To quote you ...if people pray for other people then God can help them advance by His mercy:

I take it you are referring to departed souls, as people... Strange, but nonetheless, you are saying that people on earth will pray for people in heaven or hell? I don't know, but I would like to know how the process works... you say help them to advance, not advance them, so are you saying the one prayed for makes advancement with help? Thus is that person not able to advance... with effort, along with help?

Death is the opposite of life.
How does one get death, and still see life? It's incompatible.
Jesus said, 'the one who disobeys, will not see life, at all.' He did not say, the one who disobeys will be forever living - whether in Hell, or some other realm.

That is easy to answer. Jesus meant that the one who disobeys will not see eternal life.

The soul (spirit) of man is immortal so it can never be extinguished, so when Jesus said in Matthew 16:25-26 “For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?” He meant losing the eternal life of the soul. All souls continue to exist forever, but some souls have eternal life and others don’t.

“The immortality of the spirit is mentioned in the Holy Books; it is the fundamental basis of the divine religions. Now punishments and rewards are said to be of two kinds: first, the rewards and punishments of this life; second, those of the other world. But the paradise and hell of existence are found in all the worlds of God, whether in this world or in the spiritual heavenly worlds. Gaining these rewards is the gaining of eternal life. That is why Christ said, “Act in such a way that you may find eternal life, and that you may be born of water and the spirit, so that you may enter into the Kingdom.” 2” Some Answered Questions, p. 223

“Likewise, the rewards of the other world are the eternal life which is clearly mentioned in all the Holy Books, the divine perfections, the eternal bounties and everlasting felicity….The rewards of the other world are peace, the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God in the world of eternity.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 224-225

Those people who are distant from God do not have eternal life, although their soul continues to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies.

“In the same way, the souls who are veiled from God, although they exist in this world and in the world after death, are, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, nonexisting and separated from God.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 243

I added spirit in order to make it clear that two things are being spoken of.
I believe the spirit is the force of life, or life force, which is more than just breathing. When God breath the breath of life in the man, it allowed the man to keep breathing, but what keeps the man breathing?

I believe it is the soul that animates the body and keeps it breathing. The soul is synonymous with the human spirit, which is the non-physical part of the human.

No amount of breath of fresh air, will make anyone come alive. It is the spirit that keeps man breathing. Once that goes out, the breathing is not sustained, and the man dies.
Hence the Bible evidently links the two. (Job 34:14, 15) 14 If he fixes his attention on them, If he gathers their spirit and breath to himself, 15 All humans would perish together, And mankind would return to the dust.

That’s true, the body returns to dust when the body dies, but the soul leaves the body at that time because the soul is not dependent upon the body to exist.

Jesus said, (John 6:63) It is the spirit that is life-giving; the flesh is of no use at all. The sayings that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
I understand that you equate spirit with soul, and I can understand why one might think it safe to interpret them to be the same, but taking all the scriptures into consideration, as well as the context of those scriptures, I don't see how they can be the same.

Would you mind explaining why you see both as the same, other than that it is a teaching of Bahaullah.
Does it not conflict with the Bible?
(1 Thessalonians 5:23) . . .And may the spirit (πνεῦμα, ατος, τό - pneuma) and soul (ψυχή, ῆς, ἡ - psuché) and body (σῶμα, ατος, τό - sóma) of you brothers. . .

If you like, we can isolate this as a topic, and discuss it.
Why is it the Bible always separates the two? (Job 12:10)

That is true, the spirit and the soul are not the same. “The sayings that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.” These words are spirit and the affect the soul. So the word spirit as it is used in the Bible means something different than the word soul.

(Continued on next post)

 

[Trailblazer]

So when you read the word die, in relation to a sinner, to you it always means spiritual death?

Absolutely.

When Jesus died, and the faithful, you interpreted is as a bodily / physical death?
I don't understand... How does one arrive at that interpretation?

Absolutely it was a physical death, because the spirit of Jesus cannot ever be killed, nor can the spirit of the faithful ever be killed, but a physical body can be killed and once dead it remains dead.

What? Pardon me, Trailblazer.
Please excuse my astonishment.
The person, the soul has thoughts, but when the brain dies, those thought that come from the brain die, but the thought of the soul live on?

The soul NEEDS the brain to have consciousness and thoughts while we are alive in a physical body in THIS world. But after the physical body dies, the soul attaches itself to a spiritual body in the spiritual world and continues to have consciousness.

The scriptures do not say that Trailblazer!
I'm sorry, but I thing Bahais go too far in their taking liberty to make the scriptures say whatever they want... imo.

No, the Bible does not say that. This is one of the *many things* that Jesus did not reveal because humanity was not ready to hear them since humanity was unable to understand these things back in the days of Jesus:

John 16:12-13 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Baha’u’llah claimed to be the Spirit of truth who brought the *many things*humanity could not bear back in the days of Jesus.

The scriptures say precisely, 'His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish.'
The scriptures say, also, '...the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it.'

And that is true. The thoughts associated with his brain perish when his body dies, but consciousness continues through the soul in the spiritual world (heaven).

I agree that the body returns to the earth, but what do you think this means? -- the spirit returns to the true God who gave it.

The scriptures do not say, the soul returns to God.
I think we need to establish some clarity on the difference between the soul, and spirit.
Or do you think we might not reach a reasonable conclusion?

As I said above, there is a distinction between spirit and soul, depending upon the context.

However, Baha’u’llah did write that the soul returns to God. Referring to the soul, He wrote:

“If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 159

“And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 155-156

 

[Trailblazer]

I think the scripture in John 5:25 can be open to interpreting it as spiritual dead, based on Jesus' words in verse 24. However, I don't see how you can arrive at spiritual dead, regarding Jesus' words in verse 28, and 29.
Seems to me to do that, the Bahai has to take another liberty to interpret grave any way they wish.
How do you interpret grave?

Those who are in their graves are spiritually dead. They are in the grave of ignorance of God.

I don't think we are allowing the Bible to speak to us, when we do that. To me, that seems to be putting our belief in the Bible.

Jesus said, 'the hour is coming, twice, in those verses. He appears to be speaking of two different occasions, based on the context.
The fact that Jesus says, 'Do not be amazed / marvel at this', shows that he is not speaking of anything spiritual, or figurative - something they may not be familiar with, or have to guess at, but something familiar to them (physical).

He uses the word grave because it has a meaning, being spiritually dead. That is why in Matthew 8:22 Jesus said, “Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead.” He meant that the spiritually dead can go and bury a dead body but the spiritually alive should follow Him.

Being buried in a grave is an allegory; it does not mean buried in a physical grave, it means spiritually dead. The subject of graves and resurrection is a very big topic and I have an entire folder in my directory full of Word documents on this subject, many containing Bible verses and the Writings of Baha’u’llah. It would be best to start a new thread if we are going to discuss this since it is such a big topic.

I don't think we quite agree on this Trailblazer. I don't agree that any soul leaves the body and ascends to the spiritual world.
Paul said, God give it a body, as he pleases, but what does he give the body? Not what left the earth and ascended to him (nothing did), but what God gives life to.
If we go back to the Garden of Eden, what did God give the body? "God formed man... from the earth... breathed into him the breath of life... the man became a living soul / person.
Man got the body. The spirit made him alive - a breather... reliant on oxygen to keep on.
Now, go back to heaven. What is raised up is given the spiritual body / spirit body. It does not require oxygen. It is self sustaining.

I agree with this part: “What is raised up is given the spiritual body / spirit body. It does not require oxygen. It is self sustaining” but I do not believe that the physical body is raised up from a physical grave in the physical ground; I believe that the physical body dies and the soul leaves the body and goes to the spiritual world. I do not believe that humans go back to the Garden of Eden and live forever on a paradise on earth, but rather we go to a paradise in the spiritual world and live forever.

If the soul is immortal, and does not die, how is it "raised up to heaven"?

See my response to your next post.

 

[Trailblazer]

Can you explain how "the soul is raised up into the spiritual world"?

No, I cannot explain that. All we are able to know about the soul is what the Manifestations of God reveal to us. Baha’u’llah described the *function* of the soul and its eternal destination, but He said that the *nature* of the soul is a mystery no human mind can ever grasp. I assume that God raises the soul up to the spiritual world, but I have no idea how God does that.

“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159