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Why can't God...

nPeace

Veteran Member
Good to see you again, even though I cannot actually see you. :)

I am in worse shape now than when I posted those posts, as my new tenant just gave notice she is moving out, so now on top of everything else that is going on at MY house, I have to deal with that rental again, just after I had gotten everything all squared away for that tenant. She was only there a few months and she said she would be there for years. :rolleyes:

Anyhow, all I can say is "Help me Jesus, help me God." :eek: And I say that a lot.

I will surely respond to your two posts as soon as I can, hopefully over the long weekend, unless I get too inundated answering e-mails from prospective tenants. :(
Wow. Sorry to hear.Hope things work out for you.
No need to hurry to respond. It's not going anywhere.
Take care.
 

Jos

Well-Known Member
What I believe about an afterlife in a spiritual world is not derived only from my religious beliefs. It also comes from other sources which are nonreligious.
Sources such as?

Of course it is not scientifically verifiable because it is not a material plane of existence, but there are reasons to believe there is a spiritual world because there is evidentiary proof that comes from spirits through mediums.
That's unverifiable plus there's no reason to believe that such a thing is possible given what's known about the brain plus again, as I've said before, other religious sources say differently differently to yours why should I believe them over you?

What comes through is similar to what my religion teaches but it is in much more detail. I see no reason to discount it without even looking at it but that is a choice everyone has to make for themselves.
There's enough reason to stop looking for evidence for something that's unverifiable, such as most if not all religious claims, since they can't be tested or independently verified. That's what's so frustrating about theism, everyone makes all these unverifiable claims and if you don't believe them, God has to burn you forever, it's ridiculous. You can call me closeminded for not giving the evidence a look but what's the point of it anyway if I can't know it's true? A little analogy here, as imperfect as it is but one thing that's really difficult to understand in science is rocket engineering but just because a person can't understand rocket engineering and therefore won't try to understand or learn about it doesn't mean that they're completely closeminded or anything of the sort so I'm well within my rights not to look at religious sources as evidence since they can't be independently verified to be true and since other religious sources would make different claims about the same thing. There's literally no way, at least that I know of to be able to determine a spiritual truth from a spiritual falsehood.
 
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Jos

Well-Known Member
In order to have the world you want. Everyone would have to agree with each other on everything. The reasons people don't want to be here is because they've had terrible things happen to them in their past. In order for these things to not have happened to them, is for there to be no conflict.
No people don't need to agree with each other, I think it's safe to assume that most people like their existence even with past conflicts with others so it doesn't follow that people must totally think alike and agree with each other in order for people to like their existence. And it's not always the case that people don't want to be here because of bad things that happened to them because of bad things that were done to them, sometimes they don't want to be here because they don't like the human experience and most or all of what human existence entails, it's not always necessarily because of other people.
 

Jos

Well-Known Member
Sure it is. If humans do not cause each other misery and pain then who/what?
As I've said before different aspects of the human condition or the human experience can also cause it such as mental illness and the natural world also inflicts suffering on humans through sickness and disease so it's not always because of other people.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Sure it is. If humans do not cause each other misery and pain then who/what?
Diseases, accidents, injuries, having to work for a living, having to maintain houses and cars, etc.
This material world is a storehouse of suffering.

Of course, if one does not have any point of comparison, that might actually think this world is hunky dory. :rolleyes:
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Sources such as?
The Afterlife Revealed
Private Dowding
Heaven and Hell
That's unverifiable plus there's no reason to believe that such a thing is possible given what's known about the brain plus again, as I've said before, other religious sources say differently differently to yours why should I believe them over you?
The reason you should beleive in my religion over the others is because it is newer and updated and it has more information about the soul and the afterlife than the older religions, information that is easier to understand.
The soul animates the body and gives it life, but when the body dies the soul does not die. Baha’u’llah wrote that the nature of the soul is a mystery of God, but Baha’u’llah and Abdu'l-Baha wrote extensively about the function of the soul. My encapsulated description of the soul and its function is as follows:

The body is just a vehicle that carries the soul around while we are alive on earth, a place to house the soul. The soul is our self, the sum total of the personality, the person himself; the physical body is pure matter with no real identity. The person, after he dies and leaves his physical body behind, goes to the spiritual world where the soul takes on a spiritual body made up of heavenly elements that exist in the spiritual realm. Since all we have ever experienced is physical, it is impossible for us to understand what it is like to be a spiritual being rather than a physical body.

“The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men.........
The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 156-157

There's enough reason to stop looking for evidence for something that's unverifiable, such as most if not all religious claims, since they can't be tested or independently verified. That's what's so frustrating about theism, everyone makes all these unverifiable claims and if you don't believe them, God has to burn you forever, it's ridiculous. You can call me closeminded for not giving the evidence a look but what's the point of it anyway if I can't know it's true? A little analogy here, as imperfect as it is but one thing that's really difficult to understand in science is rocket engineering but just because a person can't understand rocket engineering and therefore won't try to understand or learn about it doesn't mean that they're completely closeminded or anything of the sort so I'm well within my rights not to look at religious sources as evidence since they can't be independently verified to be true and since other religious sources would make different claims about the same thing. There's literally no way, at least that I know of to be able to determine a spiritual truth from a spiritual falsehood.
Of course, religious claims can't be tested or independently verified; religion is not like science. Instead, you have to use your God given innate intelligence to try to determine which religious claims make the most sense to you, or if any do.

God does not burn people in hell if they do not believe in Him; that is mere superstition, an example of a religious belief that makes no sense, a belief that came about as the result of people interpreting the Bible literally, when it was meant to be symbolic. Hell is symbolic for distance from God and burning is symbolic for pain.
 

Jos

Well-Known Member
How are those sources anything but religious sources, especially since they would have claimed to have been in contact with God or spiritual entities? Or even if they are non religious, they are people's personal experiences and personal experience by it's very name, is personal and is only evidence for the person who had the experience and again you give me no reason other than faith to believe those guys over other religious people who say differently.

The reason you should beleive in my religion over the others is because it is newer and updated and it has more information about the soul and the afterlife than the older religions, information that is easier to understand.
So what? New doesn't mean true. Other religions would have been new in their time but that didn't necessarily make them true. And again, you're not getting it, you believe it has information about the soul and the afterlife and even updates about those things but you have no way to demonstrate that the information is true or it's updated, you just keep claiming stuff as though it's true without demonstrating it to be true.

The soul animates the body and gives it life, but when the body dies the soul does not die. Baha’u’llah wrote that the nature of the soul is a mystery of God, but Baha’u’llah and Abdu'l-Baha wrote extensively about the function of the soul. My encapsulated description of the soul and its function is as follows:

The body is just a vehicle that carries the soul around while we are alive on earth, a place to house the soul. The soul is our self, the sum total of the personality, the person himself; the physical body is pure matter with no real identity. The person, after he dies and leaves his physical body behind, goes to the spiritual world where the soul takes on a spiritual body made up of heavenly elements that exist in the spiritual realm. Since all we have ever experienced is physical, it is impossible for us to understand what it is like to be a spiritual being rather than a physical body.
This makes no sense for a few reasons:

1) it makes no sense for an immaterial thing to be capable of interacting with and controlling a material thing since they're two completely different substances, it's like trying to get oil and water to interact with each other ie. it's impossible and doesn't happen

2) it makes no sense for a soul to have a body if it can exist perfectly fine on it's own without a body

3) it's inconsistent with what's known about the brain and how it works ie. it makes no sense for there to be a soul that stores one's memories, personality etc when damage to the brain causes personality changes or loss of memories occurs naturally in old age like Alzheimer's... if there's an immaterial soul that's unaffected by physical damage or other wear and tear over time to the body then it makes no sense for any of those things to happen

Of course, religious claims can't be tested or independently verified; religion is not like science.
And that's why there's no point trying to find out which, if any is true... if it's untestable then why bother look to see which one is true, it would basically be a fool's errand

Instead, you have to use your God given innate intelligence to try to determine which religious claims make the most sense to you, or if any do.
And that's why there are so many religions and people belonging to different religions who all believe different and even contradictory things about God, the soul, afterlife etc. again as I said earlier, it's a fool's errand trying to find out who's right, you can't use your intelligence because you'll never be able to know for sure if you're right... those same people used their intelligence and they ended up believing differently than you so intelligence doesn't guarantee truth

God does not burn people in hell if they do not believe in Him; that is mere superstition, an example of a religious belief that makes no sense, a belief that came about as the result of people interpreting the Bible literally, when it was meant to be symbolic. Hell is symbolic for distance from God and burning is symbolic for pain.
How can you be so sure you're right and they're wrong? What if you're interpreting things wrongly? What if they're right and you've been wrong all along? How would you know?
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
As I've said before different aspects of the human condition or the human experience can also cause it such as mental illness and the natural world also inflicts suffering on humans through sickness and disease so it's not always because of other people.

Sure but that's just life. Animals suffer the same. Humans are fairly unique in the way we purposely harm, manipulate, control, and kill each other.
 

Jos

Well-Known Member
Sure but that's just life. Animals suffer the same. Humans are fairly unique in the way we purposely harm, manipulate, control, and kill each other.
Well you asked for examples of people suffering other than through human actions and you got them and the lady provided other examples above. Also it's exactly because "that's just life" (suffering resulting from human actions and other sources) that some people wouldn't want to be here or exist in the first place... and yes animals suffer the same but because of humans' unique self awareness we would suffer a lot more than animals and I also think that animals intently hurt other animals just like humans do, I see no reason to think that humans are unique in the way they hurt each other.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
How are those sources anything but religious sources, especially since they would have claimed to have been in contact with God or spiritual entities? Or even if they are non religious, they are people's personal experiences and personal experience by it's very name, is personal and is only evidence for the person who had the experience and again you give me no reason other than faith to believe those guys over other religious people who say differently.
Those sources were not religious sources although the book Heaven and Hell was written by a Christian who fell away from orthodox Christianity. All of them are based upon departed spirits contacted through mediums. Yes, it is the personal experiences of those spirits, but that is the only way to get the information before we actually die and have the same experiences.

I do not know if all the details in the books is accurate and even the spirits said they have trouble conveying exactly what the spiritual world is like, because there are no words to describe what is so different than this world. However, what comes through from the spirits is closely aligned with what Baha’u’llah wrote about the afterlife. Other religions do not align with what comes through in spirit communications.
So what? New doesn't mean true. Other religions would have been new in their time but that didn't necessarily make them true. And again, you're not getting it, you believe it has information about the soul and the afterlife and even updates about those things but you have no way to demonstrate that the information is true or it's updated, you just keep claiming stuff as though it's true without demonstrating it to be true.
No, new does not equate to true; one has to do the necessary independent investigation in order to determine if it is true. Nobody can prove that to them, thye have to prove it to themselves.

I know it is new and updated because it was revealed in the 19th century, long after the other religions were revealed.
This makes no sense for a few reasons:

1) it makes no sense for an immaterial thing to be capable of interacting with and controlling a material thing since they're two completely different substances, it's like trying to get oil and water to interact with each other ie. it's impossible and doesn't happen.
I see no reason what an immaterial thing (soul) could not affect a material thing (body). The soul is a mystery so we do not know how it interacts with the body.
2) it makes no sense for a soul to have a body if it can exist perfectly fine on it's own without a body.
The soul cannot exist without a body. In this world the soul need a body to work through and in the spiritual world the soul needs a spiritual body.
3) it's inconsistent with what's known about the brain and how it works ie. it makes no sense for there to be a soul that stores one's memories, personality etc when damage to the brain causes personality changes or loss of memories occurs naturally in old age like Alzheimer's... if there's an immaterial soul that's unaffected by physical damage or other wear and tear over time to the body then it makes no sense for any of those things to happen.
The soul does not store all of that, the brain does. Damage to the brain affects the body but not the soul.

Your body is not in charge of your consciousness, your soul is, but while you are alive in a body, your soul works through the brain. The soul communicates its desires through the brain to the physical body, which thereby expresses itself in various ways. The soul is responsible for the mind, senses and emotions as well as physical sensations, but these are expressed through the body. When the brain is damaged hindrances interpose themselves between the soul and the body and cause physical illness. However, the soul remains unaffected.

The soul is like the light of the lamp. An external object may interfere with its brightness, but the light itself continues to shine. Or think about the soul as the sun above the clouds. The clouds are simply preventing us from seeing the sunshine, but the sun is shining just as brightly nevertheless.

Every illness afflicting the body of man is an impediment that prevents the soul from manifesting its inherent might and power. When the soul leaves the body, however, it will be unaffected by any bodily ailments and it will be able to fully manifest its power.

“Know thou that the soul of man is exalted above, and is independent of all infirmities of body or mind. That a sick person showeth signs of weakness is due to the hindrances that interpose themselves between his soul and his body, for the soul itself remaineth unaffected by any bodily ailments.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 153-154

And that's why there's no point trying to find out which, if any is true... if it's untestable then why bother look to see which one is true, it would basically be a fool's errand.
Testing it is not how you determine it is true. You have to investigate it, do research, and then evaluate it to determine if it is true or not.

“The first principle Baha’u’llah urged was the independent investigation of truth. “Each individual,” He said, “is following the faith of his ancestors who themselves are lost in the maze of tradition. Reality is steeped in dogmas and doctrines. If each investigate for himself, he will find that Reality is one; does not admit of multiplicity; is not divisible. All will find the same foundation and all will be at peace.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, p. 5.

“Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men.”Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 8

“What does it mean to investigate reality? It means that man must forget all hearsay and examine truth himself, for he does not know whether statements he hears are in accordance with reality or not. Wherever he finds truth or reality, he must hold to it, forsaking, discarding all else; for outside of reality there is naught but superstition and imagination.” – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 62.

And that's why there are so many religions and people belonging to different religions who all believe different and even contradictory things about God, the soul, afterlife etc. again as I said earlier, it's a fool's errand trying to find out who's right, you can't use your intelligence because you'll never be able to know for sure if you're right... those same people used their intelligence and they ended up believing differently than you so intelligence doesn't guarantee truth.
Most people who belong to a religion were raised in that religion so they never investigated it for themselves. Some people in adult lie do their own investigation and join a religion and they believe they are right. All the major religions are right for the ages in which they were revealed but they do not apply to all time, because they do not have the remedy humanity needs in the present time. If a religion does not suit the needs of the time, I see no reason to consider it.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213


Also, religions lose their potency over time and they become distorted by humans who misinterpret the scriptures. That is why it makes sense to look at the current religion of God rather than the older ones.
How can you be so sure you're right and they're wrong? What if you're interpreting things wrongly? What if they're right and you've been wrong all along? How would you know?
That is not something I can explain. Part of it is because I was guided by God but why I believe it is also based upon rationality. I know I cannot be wrong because it is logical to me that God would not reveal one religion that is right or all time and say all the others are false. The Baha’i Faith teaches that all the religions were right for the ages in which they were revealed but that religion needs to be renewed in every age, and also God had a new message in every age that suits the needs of the time.

Referring to all the world’s great religions, Baha’u’llah wrote: that they all proceed from One Source, God.

“These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source, and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 287-288
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You must have lived an extremely sheltered life then.

Mr.Lion don't get his knees broke and his cubs raped because he didn't pay his coke dealer.
Yes, humans are unique in how they hurt each other. Animals only hurt each other because of a survival instinct; fighting for a mate, over food or territory. Humans hurt other humans because that are hateful, evil and selfish. An animal cannot be selfish, as self-preservation is instinctual.
 

Jos

Well-Known Member
Those sources were not religious sources although the book Heaven and Hell was written by a Christian who fell away from orthodox Christianity. All of them are based upon departed spirits contacted through mediums. Yes, it is the personal experiences of those spirits, but that is the only way to get the information before we actually die and have the same experiences.

I do not know if all the details in the books is accurate and even the spirits said they have trouble conveying exactly what the spiritual world is like, because there are no words to describe what is so different than this world. However, what comes through from the spirits is closely aligned with what Baha’u’llah wrote about the afterlife. Other religions do not align with what comes through in spirit communications.
Exactly! There's no way to know for sure if it is true, you can't talk to the people directly or ask them to recreate the situation where they supposedly contacted these otherworldly beings, so why believe any of it? And why believe this Baha'u'llah guy or anything that he says?

No, new does not equate to true; one has to do the necessary independent investigation in order to determine if it is true. Nobody can prove that to them, thye have to prove it to themselves.
Again how the heck can I investigate a religion which by it's very nature is untestable and has to be taken on faith in order to believed to be true? How can I determine a spiritual truth from a spiritual falsehood? It's impossible. There's no way to be able to prove one religion right and another one wrong since all of them attain them use faith to come to truth and it's exactly the use of faith that leads to so many different conclusions about God, the afterlife etc.

I know it is new and updated because it was revealed in the 19th century, long after the other religions were revealed.
Still new doesn't mean true and there have been other religions or other people who would have claimed to have been prophets of God who would have popped up after your religion would have existed, so why are you right and they wrong?

I see no reason what an immaterial thing (soul) could not affect a material thing (body). The soul is a mystery so we do not know how it interacts with the body.
It makes no sense since they would be two completely different and opposite substances.

The soul cannot exist without a body. In this world the soul need a body to work through and in the spiritual world the soul needs a spiritual body.
And you can't demonstrate any of this to be true. Why couldn't it be the case that humans are purely physical beings whose brains can conduct all the functions that a soul would conduct?

The soul does not store all of that, the brain does. Damage to the brain affects the body but not the soul.

Your body is not in charge of your consciousness, your soul is, but while you are alive in a body, your soul works through the brain. The soul communicates its desires through the brain to the physical body, which thereby expresses itself in various ways. The soul is responsible for the mind, senses and emotions as well as physical sensations, but these are expressed through the body. When the brain is damaged hindrances interpose themselves between the soul and the body and cause physical illness. However, the soul remains unaffected.

The soul is like the light of the lamp. An external object may interfere with its brightness, but the light itself continues to shine. Or think about the soul as the sun above the clouds. The clouds are simply preventing us from seeing the sunshine, but the sun is shining just as brightly nevertheless.

Every illness afflicting the body of man is an impediment that prevents the soul from manifesting its inherent might and power. When the soul leaves the body, however, it will be unaffected by any bodily ailments and it will be able to fully manifest its power.
Again, all of this is unverifiable and not demonstrable, but you said earlier that the soul is the sum total of one's personality, whatever that means and that it's a person's true self, but for everyone their memories and life experiences would inform their personhood and for that the brain would be key... you said that the brain stores all of that information but there are cases known where people had their brain damaged and lost their memories and they weren't the same person anymore, so clearly the brain is the one that creates the self or personality and not a soul, and again I ask, if the soul is the actually the thing giving the body consciousness and life and gives a person its sense of self then why have a physical brain? It's just unnecessary and inefficient given that the brain is prone to damage and injury and it just makes no sense whatsoever since the brain wouldn't serve any function given that the soul serves all the functions. And again given what's known about the brain, whenever it's damaged people can lose consciousness so it suggests that the brain is the thing giving consciousness and not the soul, since as you said, if the soul is incapable of being damaged by physical injury and it gives the body consciousness then people should be conscious even when their brain is damaged but that doesn't happen, they actually become unconscious when the brain is damaged.

Testing it is not how you determine it is true. You have to investigate it, do research, and then evaluate it to determine if it is true or not.
Again I ask, how I do investigate a spiritual phenomenon such as religion that requires faith as a means to truth which however actually leads to contradictory answers given the different religions and at what they say about God, the afterlifer, soul etc and when it's been shown that simply using one's intelligence isn't enough to determine which religion is true or not, given that a lot of other religious people would have done the same thing but ended up believing in different religions. As I keep saying there doesn't seem to be a way to determine a spiritual truth from a spiritual falsehood.

Most people who belong to a religion were raised in that religion so they never investigated it for themselves
Possibly but as you also pointed afterwards people do still investigate in their adulthood and many of those people who have investigated it have come to different conclusions about the truth.

All the major religions are right for the ages in which they were revealed but they do not apply to all time, because they do not have the remedy humanity needs in the present time. If a religion does not suit the needs of the time, I see no reason to consider it.
That's arguable since many religions do teach stuff that one can learn from and practice in order to solve problems so even if it's old it can still offer guidance. How does one determine what humanity collectively needs anyway? It seems that history repeats itself and that humans have continually dealt with the same problems.

Also, religions lose their potency over time and they become distorted by humans who misinterpret the scriptures.
Yet Islam, Christianity and Hinduism are still as potent as ever and it's not humans' fault that they misinterpret scripture... humans are fallible and prone to error so it's inevitable that misinterpretation happens.

That is why it makes sense to look at the current religion of God rather than the older ones.
But there's no discernible way to determine which religion is God's religion

Part of it is because I was guided by God but why I believe it is also based upon rationality. I know I cannot be wrong because it is logical to me that God would not reveal one religion that is right or all time and say all the others are false.
And all other religious people would say the same thing about you and say that they're right and you're wrong. And how do you do know God was guiding you? How would one even know such a thing?

The Baha’i Faith teaches that all the religions were right for the ages in which they were revealed but that religion needs to be renewed in every age, and also God had a new message in every age that suits the needs of the time
As I said earlier humanity seems to have always dealt with the same problems and also even the oldest of religions can offer guidance and advice for dealing with problems.

Referring to all the world’s great religions, Baha’u’llah wrote: that they all proceed from One Source, God.
I see no way of determining if this guy is telling the truth or not and so I no reason to trust anything that he says.
 
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Jos

Well-Known Member
You must have lived an extremely sheltered life then.

Mr.Lion don't get his knees broke and his cubs raped because he didn't pay his coke dealer.
Yes, humans are unique in how they hurt each other. Animals only hurt each other because of a survival instinct; fighting for a mate, over food or territory. Humans hurt other humans because that are hateful, evil and selfish. An animal cannot be selfish, as self-preservation is instinctual.
I see no reason to believe that humans are unique and different from animals when it comes to choice... uniqueness is something that humans assume about themselves. I think it's possible that animals have free will just like humans do and there's even research that seems to suggest it, at least with fruit flies. We don't know everything, we don't even know that much about our own brain yet we're willing to make unfounded judgements and assumptions about animals and assume that we're higher than them when it's possible that their brain allows for free will and since we haven't totally figured out everything about our brain and the brains of other creatures then I think there's at least a possibility that animals can make choices like how humans can make choices. Humans can also instinctively hurt other humans and fight over mates and food and territory, it happens almost everyday and has happened all throughout human history --- people fighting for power and fighting over resources, in fact it can be argued that humans are worse than animals since we cause so much destruction to each other and the world through our fights and also given our level of sentience we should be smart enough to peacefully work things out but that doesn't always happen, so much for being unique. And actually conversely, if animals act solely on instinct and their actions are determined then I see no reason to believe that human actions would be different. Humans did supposedly evolve from other creatures so why assume that we're exempt from what other creatures experience?
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
I see no reason to believe that humans are unique and different from animals when it comes to choice... uniqueness is something that humans assume about themselves.

Well if it isn't obvious to you then debating it certainly will not change your mind.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Exactly! There's no way to know for sure if it is true, you can't talk to the people directly or ask them to recreate the situation where they supposedly contacted these otherworldly beings, so why believe any of it? And why believe this Baha'u'llah guy or anything that he says?
No, there is no way to know for sure exactly what happens after we die. I believe in Baha’u’llah because I have investigated Him and came to believe he was a Messenger of God.
Again how the heck can I investigate a religion which by it's very nature is untestable and has to be taken on faith in order to believed to be true? How can I determine a spiritual truth from a spiritual falsehood? It's impossible. There's no way to be able to prove one religion right and another one wrong since all of them attain them use faith to come to truth and it's exactly the use of faith that leads to so many different conclusions about God, the afterlife etc.
All you can do is read about the religion and read the scriptures. I did not say you will be able to determine if it is true, but if you never read about it or the scriptures that will ensure you won’t.

No, you cannot prove it as a fact but you would prove it to yourself if you ended up believing in it.
Still new doesn't mean true and there have been other religions or other people who would have claimed to have been prophets of God who would have popped up after your religion would have existed, so why are you right and they wrong?
I believe I am right because of the research I have done and because my religion makes sense to me given progressive revelation makes sense to me.
It makes no sense since they would be two completely different and opposite substances.
What makes sense to you makes sense to you, but what makes sense to me makes sense to me.
And you can't demonstrate any of this to be true. Why couldn't it be the case that humans are purely physical beings whose brains can conduct all the functions that a soul would conduct?
No, I cannot demonstrate it. Anything could be the case; I just do not believe it is the case.
It's just unnecessary and inefficient given that the brain is prone to damage and injury and it just makes no sense whatsoever since the brain wouldn't serve any function given that the soul serves all the functions. And again given what's known about the brain, whenever it's damaged people can lose consciousness so it suggests that the brain is the thing giving consciousness and not the soul, since as you said, if the soul is incapable of being damaged by physical injury and it gives the body consciousness then people should be conscious even when their brain is damaged but that doesn't happen, they actually become unconscious when the brain is damaged.
The brain serves a function because without the brain the soul could not act but the soul is unaffected by what happens to the brain. The person is affected which they are in a body because the brain is affected but after they die the body dies and the person takes on a spiritual body which will not be affected by any diseases they had in this world.
Again I ask, how I do investigate a spiritual phenomenon such as religion that requires faith as a means to truth which however actually leads to contradictory answers given the different religions and at what they say about God, the afterlife, soul etc and when it's been shown that simply using one's intelligence isn't enough to determine which religion is true or not, given that a lot of other religious people would have done the same thing but ended up believing in different religions. As I keep saying there doesn't seem to be a way to determine a spiritual truth from a spiritual falsehood.
You just pick one religion and read about it. It does not matter what all the religions say, you cannot investigate all of them.
Possibly but as you also pointed afterwards people do still investigate in their adulthood and many of those people who have investigated it have come to different conclusions about the truth.
It does not matter what other people do, it only matters what you do. It is your life and your spiritual journey.
That's arguable since many religions do teach stuff that one can learn from and practice in order to solve problems so even if it's old it can still offer guidance. How does one determine what humanity collectively needs anyway? It seems that history repeats itself and that humans have continually dealt with the same problems.
All religions offer spiritual guidance but the older religions do not have the remedy that is needed in this new age.
Yet Islam, Christianity and Hinduism are still as potent as ever and it's not humans' fault that they misinterpret scripture... humans are fallible and prone to error so it's inevitable that misinterpretation happens.
But there's no discernible way to determine which religion is God's religion.
Maybe not for you, but it is possible for others.
And all other religious people would say the same thing about you and say that they're right and you're wrong. And how do you do know God was guiding you? How would one even know such a thing?
It does not matter what other people say or do. That has nothing to do with my experience. I know God was guiding me because Baha’u’llah wrote that those who believe in Him were guided.
As I said earlier humanity seems to have always dealt with the same problems and also even the oldest of religions can offer guidance and advice for dealing with problems.
I do not believe that the older religions have the solutions for the problems humanity is facing in this new age.
I see no way of determining if this guy is telling the truth or not and so I no reason to trust anything that he says.
Fine.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I see no reason to believe that humans are unique and different from animals when it comes to choice... uniqueness is something that humans assume about themselves. I think it's possible that animals have free will just like humans do and there's even research that seems to suggest it, at least with fruit flies. We don't know everything, we don't even know that much about our own brain yet we're willing to make unfounded judgements and assumptions about animals and assume that we're higher than them when it's possible that their brain allows for free will and since we haven't totally figured out everything about our brain and the brains of other creatures then I think there's at least a possibility that animals can make choices like how humans can make choices.
The reason humans are different from the other animals is because God created humans in His own image. Another reason we are different is because we have a rational soul. That is why we have free will whereas animals do not have free will. Animals make choices but they are primarily based upon instinctual needs.

There is a lot we do not know about the brains of animals, what they know, what they feel, and how they make choices. I leave it to science to figure that out. That is not within the purview of religion.
Humans did supposedly evolve from other creatures so why assume that we're exempt from what other creatures experience?
Because we have a rational soul we are able to think abstractly and problem solve and invent things and make scientific discoveries, and we can worship God. Other animals cannot do those things.
 
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