Why can't God...

[Enoch07]

Why can't God, if He/She/It exists just create humans whom they know would want to exist instead of creating people who hate being here? Do they like seeing people suffer, is them being here even though they don't want to be here some type of practical joke for this being? Like gosh, why can't God just leave people alone? If a God's all knowing they should know exactly who to create since they would foresee who would want to be here and who would not want to be here, so it's not that difficult to just to create people who want to exist and leave alone those who don't want to exist and especially in the case of those who commit suicide it makes no sense why He would create those people at all.

The world would be boring then.

If everyone thought the same way with no diversity of thought. Would life even be worth living?

 

[Jos]

The world would be boring then.

If everyone thought the same way with no diversity of thought. Would life even be worth living?

I never said anything about people thinking the same way. Only creating people who want to live isn't the same thing as creating people who think the same way. I have no idea how you made such a huge jump but it doesn't follow that only creating people who want to exist would result in a world in which those same people agreed on everything.

 

[Workman]

Humans are fallible and our senses are flawed and can't always be trusted.


Did God tell you this? First of all everyone learns through their experiences, so I'm not special when it comes to that and second of all, I'm sensitive sometimes and other times I'm not, just like a lot of other people, so IDK if God told you that but if he did, it's not special information.

First of all before you claim to know something...take a good look around you..and measure what you thought was said..be NOT as true?

You are ABSOLUTELY WRONG!!!!!

Everyone DOES NOT learn through TRUE experience...I can give you many examples.....but One I will give you!

say that you are driving a car(science).....what does one experience from that?

Absolutely nothing but speed,

Now tell me Jos!..with speed what does one learn from that? absolutely nothing but WHEN it(speed) and HOW it(speed) ends!.
That is all that SPEED will teach you..and than you start to depend on it(speed)...
But you see Jos! You must also understand as well what you are NOT experiencing from speed...
What speed takes away from you..is what God gave you..your own two Feet(walk)..and experience where and what you are walking through beauty is all around you to appreciate..that is true experience..NOT through science(car)...you start to depend on it..and than be blinded to what really matters in life..

So like you say..’SPECIAL INFORMATION’ is what got you where you are now..it is NOT worth it!..unless you like it that way..than go ahead don’t mind me!..but it shows where you stand..if you cannot come out of your box..than stay there and become like the rest of them that create that box.

 

[Trailblazer]

I never said anything about people thinking the same way. Only creating people who want to live isn't the same thing as creating people who think the same way. I have no idea how you made such a huge jump but it doesn't follow that only creating people who want to exist would result in a world in which those same people agreed on everything.

The problem with God only creating people who want to live is that even if they don't want to live at any given moment in time, that can always change. Do you think there is anyone who suffers their entire life? Maybe some people suffer most of their life but then there is an afterlife where they will no longer suffer. Of course it takes some faith to believe that because we cannot see the end in the beginning like God does. Often that does not seem fair, for those of us who suffer endlessly, especially given others don't seem to suffer much at all. However, those that suffer most attain the most perfection so it could be that people who don't suffer mush won't be in a very good position in the afterlife.

I think we will know more after we die, but even then we won't know anything. And it will depend upon the cause of our suffering whether we take it with us to the next world or not. If our suffering was due to disease or the material world conditions we live in, that will end when we die, and if it is due to psychological problems that will also end. Only if our suffering is owing to a spiritual problem will it go with us to the next world. That is why it is so important to focus on our spiritual development in this world.

 

[Jos]

The problem with God only creating people who want to live is that even if they don't want to live at any given moment in time, that can always change.

Right, so ultimately they'd still want to live even if they experience some moments where they don't want to live. I don't see the problem, that's in line with what I said earlier about creating people who only want to exist.

Do you think there is anyone who suffers their entire life?

Yes

Maybe some people suffer most of their life but then there is an afterlife where they will no longer suffer. Of course it takes some faith to believe that because we cannot see the end in the beginning like God does. Often that does not seem fair, for those of us who suffer endlessly, especially given others don't seem to suffer much at all. However, those that suffer most attain the most perfection so it could be that people who don't suffer mush won't be in a very good position in the afterlife.

I think we will know more after we die, but even then we won't know anything. And it will depend upon the cause of our suffering whether we take it with us to the next world or not. If our suffering was due to disease or the material world conditions we live in, that will end when we die, and if it is due to psychological problems that will also end. Only if our suffering is owing to a spiritual problem will it go with us to the next world. That is why it is so important to focus on our spiritual development in this world.

I'm sorry but none of that stuff is verifiable, so why bother talking about it? Like I've said before, theism and the supernatural are too internally messy and complex with tons of varying beliefs that it makes no sense for me to believe in any of it. So IDK if what you're saying is true and IDK even know how I would even go about finding out if yours or any other religious beliefs are true so I guess it doesn't make a lot of sense talking about any of this.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm sorry but none of that stuff is verifiable, so why bother talking about it? Like I've said before, theism and the supernatural are too internally messy and complex with tons of varying beliefs that it makes no sense for me to believe in any of it. So IDK if what you're saying is true and IDK even know how I would even go about finding out if yours or any other religious beliefs are true so I guess it doesn't make a lot of sense talking about any of this.

What I believe about an afterlife in a spiritual world is not derived only from my religious beliefs. It also comes from other sources which are nonreligious. Of course it is not scientifically verifiable because it is not a material plane of existence, but there are reasons to believe there is a spiritual world because there is evidentiary proof that comes from spirits through mediums. What comes through is similar to what my religion teaches but it is in much more detail. I see no reason to discount it without even looking at it but that is a choice everyone has to make for themselves.
The Afterlife Revealed
Private Dowding

 

[Enoch07]

I never said anything about people thinking the same way. Only creating people who want to live isn't the same thing as creating people who think the same way. I have no idea how you made such a huge jump but it doesn't follow that only creating people who want to exist would result in a world in which those same people agreed on everything.

In order to have the world you want. Everyone would have to agree with each other on everything. The reasons people don't want to be here is because they've had terrible things happen to them in their past. In order for these things to not have happened to them, is for there to be no conflict.

 

[Trailblazer]

The reasons people don't want to be here is because they've had terrible things happen to them in their past.

Or terrible things are going on in the present.

 

[Twilight Hue]

If I were you, I would be careful...
For where there is darkness...there I will be staring right at you..and when you hide from it...I will be hiding behind you...remember of whom I am NOT!..For I am NOT what you think..careful!

It's easy to see.

When people talk 'God' talks.

When people act 'God' Acts.

When people are silent 'God' is silent.

It's like some of those uber creepy ventriloquist movies where the guy thinks his stage puppet is alive and willingly obeys whatever it tells him to.

 

[1213]

...Like gosh, why can't God just leave people alone?...

I think that God has let us to be without Him is the reason why world has so much suffering, war, lies, violence… …People seem to love all evil and hate and kill everything good, if they can.

 

[Workman]

It's easy to see.

When people talk 'God' talks.

When people act 'God' Acts.

When people are silent 'God' is silent.

It's like some of those uber creepy ventriloquist movies where the guy thinks his stage puppet is alive and willingly obeys whatever it tells him to.

And You are soo right..
It is easy to see..isn’t(is not) IT!
But do you know what so easy about it? Hint!..Your ‘likes’...
Was that easy for you to understand?
You watch way too much movies..

 

[Twilight Hue]

And You are soo right..
It is easy to see..isn’t(is not) IT!
But do you know what so easy about it? Hint!..Your ‘likes’...
Was that easy for you to understand?
You watch way too much movies..

I simply sit down and say silent for awhile.

I don't embellish interpret or fabricate but just allow the real truth 'speak' for itself on its own terms.

No movie ticket or popcorn required.

 

[Workman]

I simply sit down and say silent for awhile.

I don't embellish interpret or fabricate but just allow the real truth 'speak' for itself on its own terms.

No movie ticket or popcorn required.

That is good to hear!..let itself play it out for you...right!

 

[Twilight Hue]

That is good to hear!..let itself play it out for you...right!

That's why God is a mental puppet. Pull the strings you make it alive. Dancing , smiting, healing, conversational, whatever one wants it to. Set down your puppets and unobscured truth is revealed.

 

[Workman]

That's why God is a mental puppet. Pull the strings you make it alive. Dancing , smiting, healing, conversational, whatever one wants it to. Set down your puppets and unobscured truth is revealed.

Ahhhh..there it goes!..what is the matter? Is there Something wrong? Did I say something for your reality to come out of your little corner? I did nothing but share to someone whom asks. But you in the other hand.. thought your needed of mentioning your ‘seeing of reality’...which is btw!..fascinating for you!..but looking at Your reaction by everything...says a lot MORE about someone who stays quiet In a corner! If you did not know! What I say is ‘sharing’...if you don’t know what that means..I’ll explain for you as simply as I can for you...YOU DONT HAVE TO LISTEN TO WHAT I SAY..IT WAS TOTALLY UP TO YOU...but looks like you are unaware of your own actions...I wonder why that is?..it’s (LIKE) your sleeping, and can not handle of your own truth in it!(hint,hint)

 

[nPeace]

It might not be for all eternity because all people can progress in the spiritual world, according to Baha’i beliefs, so there is a change that those who are separated from God could change.

"Concerning your question whether a soul can receive knowledge of the Truth in the world beyond. Such a knowledge is surely possible, and is but a sign of the loving mercy of the Almighty. We can, through our prayers, help every soul to gradually attain this high station, even if it has failed to reach it in this world. The progress of the soul does not come to an end with death. It rather starts along a new line. Bahá'u'lláh teaches that great and far-reaching possibilities await the soul in the other world. Spiritual progress in that realm is infinite, and no man, while on this earth, can visualize its full power and extent."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, May 22, 1935)
Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File

Of course, you are going by the teachings of Bahaullah, which I don't find in the Bible.
Since I don't believe in Bahaullah teachings, but follow the teachings in the Bible, we would not agree.
I don't find any place in the Bible where it teaches that after a person dies, they live on as a soul - which basically means, they did not die, since according to Bahaullah, they can think, make choices (to listen to and obey God, and change their ways).
Is that not like saying, the person did not die, but they had a body, in which they walked around in, and for some reason, the body was no longer able to cover them, so it "died"?
This seems to me, more like what the chief liar said to Eve - Genesis 3:4. Doesn't it?

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

That implies that the soul that has no sin will live, and I think that means it will have eternal life, whereas the soul that sins will not have eternal life (see below what i mean by eternal life).

I know what it says in the OT about the soul, that it is the breath of life, but where does it say that the soul dies when the body dies? If that was true, why did Jesus warn us about losing our soul?

Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Why would it matter if we lose our soul if our soul was not eternal?

Genesis 2:7
New International Version (NIV)
7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

King James Version (KJV)
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Does it say the soul is the breath of life?
It doesn't read that way.
It says, the man is the soul (being, or person). Doesn't it?
The breath of life was breathed into the man.

So according to Jesus, one would not want to gain the world and lose his life.
However, he would willingly lose his life for Christ's sake, knowing that he will regain it (in the resurrection), as was promised.

Actually, the same Greek word, there translated life, is the same Greek word, translated soul.
Matthew 16 American Standard Version (ASV)
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever would save his life shall lose it: and whosoever shall lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what shall a man be profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and forfeit his life? or what shall a man give in exchange for his life?

So you believe that some people will live forever in bodies on earth and some will go to heaven and live forever in nonperishable bodies? I have a different interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15 I can share if you want to see it.

Baha’is believe that when the physical body dies, the soul ascends to the spiritual world and it takes on a new body made up of spiritual elements that exist in the spiritual realm, so it is akin to an imperishable body since it is eternal.

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

"And the answer to the fourth question: The centre of the Sun of Truth is in the supernal world--the Kingdom of God. Those souls who are pure and unsullied, upon the dissolution of their elemental frames, hasten away to the world of God, and that world is within this world. The people of this world, however, are unaware of that world, and are even as the mineral and the vegetable that know nothing of the world of the animal and the world of man." Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, pp. 194-195

The soul (spirit) of man is immortal so it can never be extinguished. All souls continue to exist forever, but some souls have eternal life and others don’t.

“The immortality of the spirit is mentioned in the Holy Books; it is the fundamental basis of the divine religions. Now punishments and rewards are said to be of two kinds: first, the rewards and punishments of this life; second, those of the other world. But the paradise and hell of existence are found in all the worlds of God, whether in this world or in the spiritual heavenly worlds. Gaining these rewards is the gaining of eternal life. That is why Christ said, “Act in such a way that you may find eternal life, and that you may be born of water and the spirit, so that you may enter into the Kingdom.” 2” Some Answered Questions, p. 223

“Likewise, the rewards of the other world are the eternal life which is clearly mentioned in all the Holy Books, the divine perfections, the eternal bounties and everlasting felicity….The rewards of the other world are peace, the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God in the world of eternity.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 224-225

Those people who are distant from God do not have eternal life, although their soul continues to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies.

“In the same way, the souls who are veiled from God, although they exist in this world and in the world after death, are, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, nonexisting and separated from God.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 243

As stated before, the teachings of Bahaullah, are quite different to the Bible, and I go by the Bible, not Bahaullah. So we will disagree.

The Bible says plainly, when one dies, the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

(Genesis 2:7) And Jehovah God went on to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living person.

(Job 27:3) As long as my breath is within me And spirit from God is in my nostrils,

(Job 34:14, 15) 14 If he fixes his attention on them, If he gathers their spirit and breath to himself, 15 All humans would perish together, And mankind would return to the dust.

(Psalm 104:29) When you hide your face, they are disturbed. If you take away their spirit, they die and return to the dust.

(Isaiah 42:5) This is what the true God, Jehovah, says, The Creator of the heavens and the Grand One who stretched them out, The One who spread out the earth and its produce, The One who gives breath to the people on it And spirit to those who walk on it:

Do you, from these scriptures see how one can arrive at an immortal soul?
1 Corinthians 15 is in complete harmony with the above scriptures.

Would you say that Jairus’ daughter died, and her soul went to heaven and got a new body, or perhaps it did not reach heaven? Mark 5:21-43
What happened when Lazarus died? Doesn't the scriptures say he was raised up - resurrected / brought back to life?
Would you not agree that these accounts harmonize with the rest of scripture? (Psalm 104:30)

 

[Trailblazer]

Sorry it took me so long to get back to your post. I have been overwhelmed lately.

Of course, you are going by the teachings of Bahaullah, which I don't find in the Bible.
Since I don't believe in Bahaullah teachings, but follow the teachings in the Bible, we would not agree.
I don't find any place in the Bible where it teaches that after a person dies, they live on as a soul - which basically means, they did not die, since according to Bahaullah, they can think, make choices (to listen to and obey God, and change their ways).

No, that is not what happens after people die and their souls ascend to the spiritual world. They will still be able to think but they will not be able to make choices like they do in this life because they will not have free will as we know it here. So they will not be able to change their ways because they will be whatever they have become in this world. If they did not listen to God and obey God in THIS life they will not just start doing that after they die, because they will be the same person as they were when they lived in this world, only they won’t be free to change.

They might be able to progress with assistance from other souls who are more advanced than they are or by the prayers of others or the mercy of God, but it would be a lot easier to progress in THIS world because a person can make a decision here in one instant that changes their entire life.

Why do you think that Jesus stressed belief in Him so much? It is because this is their only real opportunity. When Jesus refereed to eternal life Jesus was talking about a quality of life, being close to God, but that life exists in this earthly life and in the next life (afterlife). That is why Jesus said that whoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Is that not like saying, the person did not die, but they had a body, in which they walked around in, and for some reason, the body was no longer able to cover them, so it "died"?
This seems to me, more like what the chief liar said to Eve - Genesis 3:4. Doesn't it?

It is like saying that the physical body that housed the soul died, as all bodies die, but that the soul lived on and took on another kind of form in the spiritual world, a spiritual body made up of heavenly elements that exist in the heavenly realm of existence.

Genesis 2:7
New International Version (NIV)
7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

King James Version (KJV)
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Does it say the soul is the breath of life?
It doesn't read that way.
It says, the man is the soul (being, or person). Doesn't it?
The breath of life was breathed into the man.

The soul is what animates the body and gives it life, allowing the body to exist. In that sense it is the breath of life.

That is true. The soul is the person and that means that the physical body is not the person, it is just the outer shell that houses the person.

So according to Jesus, one would not want to gain the world and lose his life.
However, he would willingly lose his life for Christ's sake, knowing that he will regain it (in the resurrection), as was promised.

Jesus did not ever promise to raise bodies from their graves. That belief came about from a misinterpretation of scripture.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Jesus meant that whoever believes in him would have eternal life, which means nearness to God, but Jesus was not referring to eternal life of the body, but rather to eternal life of the soul, which is the person himself.

As stated before, the teachings of Bahaullah, are quite different to the Bible, and I go by the Bible, not Bahaullah. So we will disagree.

The Bible says plainly, when one dies, the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

That is not different from Baha’i beliefs. Baha’is believe that when one dies, the body goes back into the earth and the spirit (soul) returns to God.

“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159

“And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 155-156

(Genesis 2:7) And Jehovah God went on to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living person.

(Job 27:3) As long as my breath is within me And spirit from God is in my nostrils,

(Job 34:14, 15) 14 If he fixes his attention on them, If he gathers their spirit and breath to himself, 15 All humans would perish together, And mankind would return to the dust.

(Psalm 104:29) When you hide your face, they are disturbed. If you take away their spirit, they die and return to the dust.

(Isaiah 42:5) This is what the true God, Jehovah, says, The Creator of the heavens and the Grand One who stretched them out, The One who spread out the earth and its produce, The One who gives breath to the people on it And spirit to those who walk on it:

Do you, from these scriptures see how one can arrive at an immortal soul?
1 Corinthians 15 is in complete harmony with the above scriptures.

How is 1 Corinthians 15 in complete harmony with the above scriptures?

Would you say that Jairus’ daughter died, and her soul went to heaven and got a new body, or perhaps it did not reach heaven? Mark 5:21-43

I would say that Jesus was able to perform miracles and heal the sick, as Baha’u’llah wrote. That is a Baha’i belief but it is also a Baha'i belief that the miracles were not what was important. What mattered to Jesus was inner sight, spiritual healing and eternal life.

“If the body of a dead person be resuscitated, of what use is it since the body will die again? But it is important to give perception and eternal life—that is, the spiritual and divine life. For this physical life is not immortal, and its existence is equivalent to nonexistence. So it is that Christ said to one of His disciples: “Let the dead bury their dead;” for “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” 1

Observe: those who in appearance were physically alive, Christ considered dead; for life is the eternal life, and existence is the real existence. Wherever in the Holy Books they speak of raising the dead, the meaning is that the dead were blessed by eternal life; where it is said that the blind received sight, the signification is that he obtained the true perception; where it is said a deaf man received hearing, the meaning is that he acquired spiritual and heavenly hearing. This is ascertained from the text of the Gospel where Christ said: “These are like those of whom Isaiah said, They have eyes and see not, they have ears and hear not; and I healed them.” 2

The meaning is not that the Manifestations are unable to perform miracles, for They have all power. But for Them inner sight, spiritual healing and eternal life are the valuable and important things. Consequently, whenever it is recorded in the Holy Books that such a one was blind and recovered his sight, the meaning is that he was inwardly blind, and that he obtained spiritual vision, or that he was ignorant and became wise, or that he was negligent and became heedful, or that he was worldly and became heavenly.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 101-102

What happened when Lazarus died? Doesn't the scriptures say he was raised up - resurrected / brought back to life?

The following verses refer to eternal life of the soul, not that the body was raised back to life. Anyone who believes in Jesus will have eternal life, which means nearness to God.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 4:13-14 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

That is really no different from what Baha’u’llah wrote.

“Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

 

[nPeace]

Sorry it took me so long to get back to your post. I have been overwhelmed lately.

No problem. Looks like we were a similar boat.

No, that is not what happens after people die and their souls ascend to the spiritual world. They will still be able to think but they will not be able to make choices like they do in this life because they will not have free will as we know it here. So they will not be able to change their ways because they will be whatever they have become in this world. If they did not listen to God and obey God in THIS life they will not just start doing that after they die, because they will be the same person as they were when they lived in this world, only they won’t be free to change.

I was only responding to what you said.
You said... It might not be for all eternity because all people can progress in the spiritual world, according to Baha’i beliefs, so there is a change that those who are separated from God could change.
They seem like two different views. Can you explain.

They might be able to progress with assistance from other souls who are more advanced than they are or by the prayers of others or the mercy of God, but it would be a lot easier to progress in THIS world because a person can make a decision here in one instant that changes their entire life.

So do you mean progress to change, as others pray for them? How so?

Why do you think that Jesus stressed belief in Him so much? It is because this is their only real opportunity. When Jesus refereed to eternal life Jesus was talking about a quality of life, being close to God, but that life exists in this earthly life and in the next life (afterlife). That is why Jesus said that whoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life.

I understand that's Bahaullah's interpretation, and the teaching of Bahai.
I understand it differently.
If Jesus says that those who do not obey, will not see life at all, how is that in harmony with the Bahai's interpretation?
One who disobeys dies. There is no life for that one, according to Jesus.
John 3:36  The one who exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; the one who disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.
Rather. it is the one who obeys, that get's everlasting life. Not both.

It is like saying that the physical body that housed the soul died, as all bodies die, but that the soul lived on and took on another kind of form in the spiritual world, a spiritual body made up of heavenly elements that exist in the heavenly realm of existence.

I know what Bahaullah's teaching says, but this is not what the Bible says. So there is conflict between the two. Are you able to show otherwise?

The soul is what animates the body and gives it life, allowing the body to exist. In that sense it is the breath of life.

That is true. The soul is the person and that means that the physical body is not the person, it is just the outer shell that houses the person.

Could you explain Genesis 2:7 to me.
By explain, I don't mean interpret it, but tell me what it says - even if you substitute words.
For example... I read... And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life [spirit]; and man became a living soul.
So to me, it says that the spirit is what made the man - the person / soul, alive. So spirit and soul, are not the same. The spirit animates the soul - that is, keeps it (he person / soul) alive. Therefore when the spirit ceases to animate the person / soul, it dies.
Ezekiel 18:4 ...The soul [person] who [that] sins is the one who will die.
Psalm 104:29 ...If you take away their spirit [breath of life], they [the soul] die and return to the dust.
Psalm 146:4 His spirit [breath of life] goes out, he [the soul] returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then the dust [man] returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit [breath of life] returns to the true God who gave it.

Could you please explain Genesis 2:7 to me.

Jesus did not ever promise to raise bodies from their graves. That belief came about from a misinterpretation of scripture.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Jesus meant that whoever believes in him would have eternal life, which means nearness to God, but Jesus was not referring to eternal life of the body, but rather to eternal life of the soul, which is the person himself.

That is not different from Baha’i beliefs. Baha’is believe that when one dies, the body goes back into the earth and the spirit (soul) returns to God.

“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159

“And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 155-156

Can you please explain John 5:25-30 to me.

How is 1 Corinthians 15 in complete harmony with the above scriptures?

1 Corinthians 15:35-58
35 Nevertheless, someone will say: “How are the dead to be raised up? Yes, with what sort of body are they coming?” 36 You unreasonable person! What you sow is not made alive unless first it dies.

Questions : What is sown? What dies? What is made alive?
Answer:
37 And as for what you sow, you sow, not the body that will develop, but just a bare grain, whether of wheat or of some other kind of seed; 38 but God gives it a body just as it has pleased him, and gives to each of the seeds its own body.
39 Not all flesh is the same flesh, but there is one of mankind, there is another flesh of cattle, another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40 And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort.
42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised up in power. 44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth and made of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust; and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we will bear also the image of the heavenly one.

So what is sown? Is it not the person?
What dies? Is it not the person?
What is raised up? Is it not the person?

Who gives the body, according to scripture? Is it not God?
God gives it a body, as it pleases him.
The physical body belongs on the earth, and is of dust.
The spiritual body - which is second (given after the physical) belongs in heaven, and is spirit.
This is incorruptible - the immortal body, which God gives the person.

The person - the soul - the life - receives the body, according to scripture.
The same person - the same soul - the same life, that dies, according to the scriptures.
The same person - the same soul - the same life, that is raised up, according to the scriptures.

Isn't that what you read?

 

[nPeace]

I would say that Jesus was able to perform miracles and heal the sick, as Baha’u’llah wrote. That is a Baha’i belief but it is also a Baha'i belief that the miracles were not what was important. What mattered to Jesus was inner sight, spiritual healing and eternal life.

“If the body of a dead person be resuscitated, of what use is it since the body will die again? But it is important to give perception and eternal life—that is, the spiritual and divine life. For this physical life is not immortal, and its existence is equivalent to nonexistence. So it is that Christ said to one of His disciples: “Let the dead bury their dead;” for “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” 1

Observe: those who in appearance were physically alive, Christ considered dead; for life is the eternal life, and existence is the real existence. Wherever in the Holy Books they speak of raising the dead, the meaning is that the dead were blessed by eternal life; where it is said that the blind received sight, the signification is that he obtained the true perception; where it is said a deaf man received hearing, the meaning is that he acquired spiritual and heavenly hearing. This is ascertained from the text of the Gospel where Christ said: “These are like those of whom Isaiah said, They have eyes and see not, they have ears and hear not; and I healed them.” 2

The meaning is not that the Manifestations are unable to perform miracles, for They have all power. But for Them inner sight, spiritual healing and eternal life are the valuable and important things. Consequently, whenever it is recorded in the Holy Books that such a one was blind and recovered his sight, the meaning is that he was inwardly blind, and that he obtained spiritual vision, or that he was ignorant and became wise, or that he was negligent and became heedful, or that he was worldly and became heavenly.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 101-102

The following verses refer to eternal life of the soul, not that the body was raised back to life. Anyone who believes in Jesus will have eternal life, which means nearness to God.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 4:13-14 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

That is really no different from what Baha’u’llah wrote.

“Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

Eternal life of the soul, as in, the person, yes... but how does the person live. Not as some disembodied ghost, or spirit, as Bahaullah says, but again, as a person that is raised from the dead, to life, and given a body, according to what scripture says.

 

[Trailblazer]

Eternal life of the soul, as in, the person, yes... but how does the person live. Not as some disembodied ghost, or spirit, as Bahaullah says, but again, as a person that is raised from the dead, to life, and given a body, according to what scripture says.

Good to see you again, even though I cannot actually see you.

I am in worse shape now than when I posted those posts, as my new tenant just gave notice she is moving out, so now on top of everything else that is going on at MY house, I have to deal with that rental again, just after I had gotten everything all squared away for that tenant. She was only there a few months and she said she would be there for years.

Anyhow, all I can say is "Help me Jesus, help me God." And I say that a lot.

I will surely respond to your two posts as soon as I can, hopefully over the long weekend, unless I get too inundated answering e-mails from prospective tenants.