Why can't Lucifer ever be redeemed?

[Thief]

So much of "us" is tied to absolutely nothing more than biology and our culture and our own experiences that a believe in some sort of "after life" is not my first conclusion.

I reason....there are 7billion+ copies of a learning device wandering on this earth
each one generating a unique spirit on each occasion

and no one survives the last breath?

I suspect many of us will

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I suspect many of us will

Based on? I know I don't have to ask to know you have never communicated with a dead person.

 

[ensnaturae]

You're outright rejection of the concept of sin indicates it's probably not a human invention. Who would invent that? "Repent and be baptized into the name of Jesus for forgiveness of sins" , Godly love is giving you a way out of punishment for sin.

Who would invent sin???!!!
Its a human course of action, a very common one..when an individual or group hopes to take control or manipulate or use power over others...is to award blame. Use *guilt* as the means of control. If you can make someone feel shame or guilt, they will be trapped by it. Make them feel like "sinners" whether they have made mistakes or not.
From a 'Loving' perspective, even people who *choose*, deliberately, to do evil things, are simply ignorant. There was no unbelievably cruel..!!...*loving father forcing his son to suffer horrible pain. Obliging him to die as a human sacrifice*.
The power groups of the day, did all they could..to award Jesus the status of vile wrong doer, eventually persuading a huge crowd that Jesus deserved to be crucified. Jesus himself defeated all accusation, as you and I may when falsely accused..he stayed connected with Love, as one with Love, and would never be persuaded by "the devil" that he was a sinner, a wrong doer, a man who could ...perform magic and convince the world of metaphysical powers..but refused to do so. He had but ONE path to take, the same path for you and for me..that is ...to stay close to Love, his god, and to be true to himself, as child of god.

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

Jesus created Lucifer outside of heaven. Over time Lucifer advanced his way into a high level administrator position for this universe. Lucifer never met God. Lucifer never went to heaven.

I believe it was God who created Lucifer, not Jesus.
I believe Lucifer existed longer than Jesus did.

Lucifer chose to begin his rebellion just before Jesus began His bestowal mission on the earth. Jesus allowed the rebellion to continue so that every angel would make a choice. Jesus began His bestowal mission to the earth regardless of the rebellion

Lucifer chose to rebel against God because he disliked what God was doing. God likes to lie and manipulate others.

Lucifer's trial will take about 3 days of universe time but that will be 3,000 years of earth time.

So that will be like judgment day?

Btw what teaching are these that you learned?

 

[Rapture Era]

I think you mean 28:13-15 - There is NO Lucifer there!

And if you had read those in context - you would have seen they are NOT about Satan/Lucifer.

Eze 24:2 Son of man, write thee the name of the day, even of this same day: the king of Babylon set himself against Jerusalem this same day.

Eze 26:15 Thus saith the Lord GOD to Tyrus; Shall not the isles shake at the sound of thy fall, when the wounded cry, when the slaughter is made in the midst of thee?

Eze 26:17 And they shall take up a lamentation for thee, and say to thee, How art thou destroyed, that wast inhabited of seafaring men, the renowned city, which wast strong in the sea, she and her inhabitants, which cause their terror to be on all that haunt it!

Eze 26:18 Now shall the isles tremble in the day of thy fall; yea, the isles that are in the sea shall be troubled at thy departure.

Eze 26:19 For thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall make thee a desolate city, like the cities that are not inhabited; when I shall bring up the deep upon thee, and great waters shall cover thee;

Eze 27:3 And say unto Tyrus, O thou that art situate at the entry of the sea, which art a merchant of the people for many isles, Thus saith the Lord GOD; O Tyrus, thou hast said, I am of perfect beauty.

Eze 27:4 Thy borders are in the midst of the seas, thy builders have perfected thy beauty.

Eze 27:22 The merchants of Sheba and Raamah, they were thy merchants: they occupied in thy fairs with chief of all spices, and with all precious stones, and gold.

Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

Eze 28:4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:

Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

As you can see when kept in context - it is NOT about Satan/Lucifer.

"Ezekiel 28:14


Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth,.... In allusion to the cherubim over the mercy seat, which covered it with their wings; and which, as the ark of the testimony and all the vessels of the tabernacle were anointed, were so likewise; in all probability the king of Tyre is called a "cherub" because of his wisdom and power; "anointed", because of his royal dignity; and "that covereth", because of his office, which was to protect his people;..." Gill's Exposition of the entire Bible.
*

Ingledsva,
Thank you for your response! And yes, I made a mistake, I meant to write Ezekiel 28 not 24, sorry about that. I wasnt expecting to respond to you with a long response but these are very interesting passages and I would like to explain my view of context as you have done. I too believe context is very important.
The story of Lucifer’s fall is described in two key Old Testament chapters—Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14. So I'd like to look briefly at both of these.

It would seem from the context of Ezekiel 28 that the first ten verses of this chapter are dealing with a human leader. Then, starting in verse 11 and on through verse 19, Lucifer is the focus of discussion.

What is the rationale for the conclusion that these latter verses refer to the fall of Lucifer? Whereas the first ten verses in this chapter speak about the ruler of Tyre (who was condemned for claiming to be a god though he was just a man), the discussion moves to the king of Tyre starting in verse 11. Many scholars believe that though there was a human “ruler” of Tyre, the real “king” of Tyre was Satan, for it was he who was ultimately at work in this anti-God city and it was he who worked through the human ruler of the city.

Some have suggested that these verses may actually be dealing with a human king of Tyre who was empowered by Satan. Perhaps the historic king of Tyre was a tool of Satan, possibly even indwelt by him. In describing this king, Ezekiel also gives us glimpses of the superhuman creature, Satan, who was using, if not indwelling, him.

Now, there are things that are true of this “king” that—at least ultimately—cannot be said to be true of human beings. For example, the king is portrayed as having a different nature from man (he is a cherub, verse 14); he had a different position from man (he was blameless and sinless, verse 15); he was in a different realm from man (the holy mount of God, verses 13,14); he received a different judgment from man (he was cast out of the mountain of God and thrown to the earth, verse 16); and the superlatives used to describe him don’t seem to fit that of a normal human being (“full of wisdom,” “perfect in beauty,” and having “the seal of perfection,” verse 12 NASB).
Also, I should back up a bit to make this point. Verse 13 "You were in Eden, the garden of God;" There were only four in the garden of Eden; God, Satan, Adam & Eve.
Our text tells us that this king was a created being and left the creative hand of God in a perfect state (Ezekiel 28:12,15). And he remained perfect in his ways until iniquity was found in him (verse 15b). What was this iniquity? We read in verse 17, “Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor.” Lucifer apparently became so impressed with his own beauty, intelligence, power, and position that he began to desire for himself the honor and glory that belonged to God alone. The sin that corrupted Lucifer was self-generated pride. There is that word again. What comes before a fall? PRIDE!

Apparently, this represents the actual beginning of sin in the universe—preceding the fall of the human Eve and then Adam by an indeterminate time. Sin originated in the free will of Lucifer in which—with full understanding of the issues involved—he chose to rebel against the Creator.

This mighty angelic being was rightfully judged by God: “I threw you to the earth” (Ezekiel 28:18). This doesn’t mean that Satan had no further access to heaven, for other Scripture verses clearly indicate that Satan maintained this access even after his fall (Job 1:6-12; Zechariah 3:1,2). However, Ezekiel 28:18 indicates that Satan was absolutely and completely cast out of God’s heavenly government and his place of authority (Luke 10:18).

Isaiah 14:12-17 is another Old Testament passage that may refer to the fall of Lucifer. We must be frank in admitting that some Bible scholars see no reference whatsoever to Lucifer in this passage. It is argued that the being mentioned in this verse is referred to as a man (Isaiah 14:16); is compared with other kings on the earth (verse 18); and the words, “How you have fallen from heaven” (verse 12), is alleged to refer to a fall from great political heights.

There are other scholars who interpret this passage as referring only to the fall of Lucifer, with no reference whatsoever to a human king. The argument here is that the description of this being is beyond humanness and hence could not refer to a mere mortal man.

There is a third view that I think is preferable to the two views above. This view sees Isaiah 14:12-17 as having a dual reference. It may be that verses 4 through 11 deal with an actual king of Babylon. Then, in verses 12 through 17, we find a dual reference that includes not just the king of Babylon but a typological description of Lucifer as well.

If this passage contains a reference to the fall of Lucifer, then the pattern of this passage would seem to fit that of the Ezekiel 28 reference—that is, first a human leader is described, and then dual reference is made to a human leader and Satan.

It is significant that the language used to describe this being fits other passages in the Bible that speak about Satan. For example, the five “I wills” in Isaiah 14 indicate an element of pride, which was also evidenced in Ezekiel 28:17 (cf. 1 Timothy 3:6 which makes reference to Satan’s conceit).

As a result of this heinous sin against God, Lucifer was banished from living in heaven (Isaiah 14:12). He became corrupt, and his name changed from Lucifer (“morning star”) to Satan (“adversary”). His power became completely perverted (Isaiah 14:12,16,17). And his destiny, following the second coming of Christ, is to be bound in a pit during the 1000-year millennial kingdom over which Christ will rule (Revelation 20:3), and eventually will be thrown into the lake of fire (Matthew 25:41). So in total context, we see that it is ultimately about Lucifer/Satan. Hope this helps.

 

[Rapture Era]

There is no throne room of God. There are no different rooms or levels in heaven. There is God, heaven and twelve angels surrounding God. In order to eliminate Satan, who was attacking the other angels, God created the universe as a prison and put Satan inside. Since then, Satan has never been back to heaven. Satan has, however, made numerous escape attempts to return to heaven. His goal has been to replace God. Satan is not real smart, he can't help himself, he keeps attacking God's creatures and causing havoc. I don't understand why someone would become a Satanist. I guess they like to suffer a lot. As far as rebelling from god, what can they gain? They can never create anything, or compete with God in order to become gods. They just fall into oblivion.

Just curious, you make this statement as fact. Where are you getting this from?

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

Lucifer was his name before he was cast down to the earth. His name changed and now is Satan. In the book of Revelation, you find him accusing. You find it also in the book of Job the first chapter. We must understand that Satan has access to the throne of God. He is not cast out of heaven. He is cast out of the throne room of God, but he has access to God, and he does something before God. He accuses us. He hates you "Luciferi Baphomet" just as much as anyone else, why? Because you were made in the image of God and he hates God. He also hates you because God loves you. Satan's mission is to keep you from the real truth about God because he doesnt want you to repent of your sins and accept God's free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ who died for you. He wants your soul to live forever in hell just like him! His desire is to pull you and anyone he can down with him, real nice guy right? He doesnt care about you, and he certainly doesnt want you to be saved from hell. He will do everything in his power to destroy you! Sounds like he's doing a pretty good job so far.

I have heard of stories of people saying that "Lucifer hates you, he wants your soul, he wants to keep you away from God, he wants to kill you". blah blah blah.
I honestly think those are lies just to keep people away from Lucifer so they can worship God.
Again what is the point to repent if jesus died for your sins. It makes no sense at all.

God is the source of all power, He doesnt have a need to want power, He is the power. God does listen to all people who genuinely want to repent of their sins and accept His free gift of salvation. Jesus died on the cross so that for those who truly choose to repent of their sins, God made a way for them to enter heaven when they die. Your last sentence says it all. That is your choice, and God will grant you your choice to spend all of eternity in hell, but why on earth would want that? I'd like to know, because that to me is the stupidest choice a human being could possibly make!

If god is the source of all power then why don't I see him healing the sick? Most of the time I hear people die from diseases. God just sits there and does nothing.
I choose to follow Lucifer. To me he is the light, the truth, and the liberator. Don't like that then deal with it.

Yes, he most certainly did want more power than God. In Isaiah chapter 14 verse 13-14 it says this quoting Satan, …13"I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north. 14 I will ascend to the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the most high." So there ya go.
I had to repost this comment it is so ludicrous!
He saw what God was doing and he disliked it. God is a manipulator. God wants worship, he wants prayer, he wants power, he wants you to ask him for forgiveness when you do something that is praobably normal like sex before marriage, even masturbation.
You have absolutely nothing to back this up! You are just rambling!
Your last sentence is oh so true! Another truth is this, we will all exist forever once we die, but depending on your personal choice while you are still living on this earth to either accept or reject Gods love of salvation for you, you will spend this eternity in one of two places, either heaven or hell. Again, tell me why anyone would want to spend an eternal existence in place as horrible as hell? Maybe you can help me understand that kind of thinking.

It makes more sense now. God loves us so much that he created hell just in case if we reject him.
If we reject god we go to hell and burn forever. Sounds like god gets jealous when someone doesn't want to follow his BS. Like I said before god only wants power and worship.
How wonderful god is huh?

You will never change my mind about following Lucifer. He will always be the one I follow. He will always be knows as a my liberator.

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

As a baby?

Lmfao

In trials ,you don't always get the death penalty

That is true.

We don't even punish half the criminals we actually have.

Sadly that is also true.

But I still have to repent, plus Jesus' sacrifice only lasted 3 days and then he canceled the check...

No point for him to die for us if he came back three days later.

I've been to hell lots of times. There are horror movies that scare me more. Satan bores me.

Lucifer is pretty chill though. Get to know him somtime.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I may not play for his team, but we have this kind of "you go do your thing, I'll do mine" thing going on.

 

[Super Universe]

I believe it was God who created Lucifer, not Jesus.
I believe Lucifer existed longer than Jesus did.


Lucifer chose to rebel against God because he disliked what God was doing. God likes to lie and manipulate others.


So that will be like judgment day?

Btw what teaching are these that you learned?

You believe it was God who created Lucifer? Why? Because that fits with what you want to be true? Why would anyone want to be a rebel against God?

You believe Lucifer existed longer than Jesus did? You can believe that if you wish. Nothing in this universe existed before Jesus. Jesus is the architect of this universe.

Lucifer chose to rebel against God because he disliked what God was doing? The bible does not give you enough information to know what really happened. Where are you getting this from?

Lucifer's trial will be like judgment day? No, it will be like a trial.

Humans have received revelation throughout our history. We're still receiving it. The problem is that we don't understand context. We really think that we're alone in the universe and that God is only concerned about being involved with us.

There is no judgment day for humanity but there is a judgment day for you, when you die and wake up at the next level. Also, the earth will be destroyed, eventually, in about 2.8 billion years when the sun expands into a red giant.

What is the teaching that I have learned? Look up at the top right corner of my posts, it says my "religion". By the way, the Urantia Book details the Lucifer Rebellion. You might find it interesting.

 

[McBell]

Why? Because that fits with what you want to be true? .

Those in glass houses should not throw stones

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

You believe it was God who created Lucifer? Why? Because that fits with what you want to be true? Why would anyone want to be a rebel against God?

It is not what I want it to be true. It is the fact that IT IS true. God created Lucifer and everyone else in heaven. This world is wayyyyy older than jesus. That is a fact.

You believe Lucifer existed longer than Jesus did? You can believe that if you wish. Nothing in this universe existed before Jesus. Jesus is the architect of this universe.

You must be those types who doesn't believe in evolution. You don't believe dinosours existed before humans existed on this earth?

Lucifer chose to rebel against God because he disliked what God was doing? The bible does not give you enough information to know what really happened. Where are you getting this from?

It is kind of obvious that when you see someone who lies and manipulates a bunch of people that you don't want to deal with that persons BS anymore.

Lucifer's trial will be like judgment day? No, it will be like a trial.

And what trial is that.

There is no judgment day for humanity but there is a judgment day for you, when you die and wake up at the next level. Also, the earth will be destroyed, eventually, in about 2.8 billion years when the sun expands into a red giant.

I kinda doubt that.

What is the teaching that I have learned? Look up at the top right corner of my posts, it says my "religion". By the way, the Urantia Book details the Lucifer Rebellion. You might find it interesting.

Nah it's cool.

 

[Rapture Era]

I have heard of stories of people saying that "Lucifer hates you, he wants your soul, he wants to keep you away from God, he wants to kill you". blah blah blah.
I honestly think those are lies just to keep people away from Lucifer so they can worship God.
Again what is the point to repent if jesus died for your sins. It makes no sense at all.


If god is the source of all power then why don't I see him healing the sick? Most of the time I hear people die from diseases. God just sits there and does nothing.
I choose to follow Lucifer. To me he is the light, the truth, and the liberator. Don't like that then deal with it.

It makes more sense now. God loves us so much that he created hell just in case if we reject him.
If we reject god we go to hell and burn forever. Sounds like god gets jealous when someone doesn't want to follow his BS. Like I said before god only wants power and worship.
How wonderful god is huh?

You will never change my mind about following Lucifer. He will always be the one I follow. He will always be knows as a my liberator.

Well, there you have it!
"I choose to follow Lucifer. To me he is the light, the truth, and the liberator. Don't like that then deal with it."
Frankly I dont really care what you choose to believe, that is your God given right to make a choice that will ultimately seal your eternity. If you think Satan, the father of all lies is the truth, that he comes as an angel of light to deceive you as your light, and the one who will be responsible for duping you into an eternal destination of hell your liberator? I certainly wont have to deal with it, you will! Sounds like a great plan!

 

[Super Universe]

Those in glass houses should not throw stones

We shouldn't do a lot of the things we do.

 

[Super Universe]

It is not what I want it to be true. It is the fact that IT IS true. God created Lucifer and everyone else in heaven. This world is wayyyyy older than jesus. That is a fact.


You must be those types who doesn't believe in evolution. You don't believe dinosours existed before humans existed on this earth?


It is kind of obvious that when you see someone who lies and manipulates a bunch of people that you don't want to deal with that persons BS anymore.


And what trial is that.


I kinda doubt that.


Nah it's cool.

It's fact that God created Lucifer? I will look at your evidence of this. Uh, you have some, don't you?

The world is way older than Jesus? It's older than Jesus human body, He just came here because in order to judge us and determine who gets to ascend to heaven, He had to see what it is like to actually be human.

I don't believe in evolution? I absolutely believe in evolution. Evolution is the way God forms sentient beings.

God lies? Your evidence?

God manipulates? Your evidence?

What trial is that? Michael (Jesus) vs Lucifer.

You doubt that there is no judgment day for humanity? Why? Does it fit with what you want to believe? Why would you want to believe something like that?

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

Frankly I dont really care what you choose to believe, that is your God given right to make a choice that will ultimately seal your eternity. If you think Satan, the father of all lies is the truth, that he comes as an angel of light to deceive you as your light, and the one who will be responsible for duping you into an eternal destination of hell your liberator? I certainly wont have to deal with it, you will! Sounds like a great plan!

• I don't believe Lucifer is the father of lies.
• So then god must have created hell just incase if you reject him right?

 

[Rapture Era]

• I don't believe Lucifer is the father of lies.
• So then god must have created hell just incase if you reject him right?

* Of course you dont
* No, not right.

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

It's fact that God created Lucifer? I will look at your evidence of this. Uh, you have some, don't you?

I don't need to give you any proof.
Isn't jesus the son of "god"? Jesus cannot be god.

The world is way older than Jesus? It's older than Jesus human body, He just came here because in order to judge us and determine who gets to ascend to heaven, He had to see what it is like to actually be human.

Jesus wanted to know what it was like to be human? I thought with jesus being the son of god he would know already. I guess jesus wasn't that smart enough.

I don't believe in evolution? I absolutely believe in evolution. Evolution is the way God forms sentient beings.

You said this in the forum "Nothing in this universe existed before Jesus. Jesus is the architect of this universe."
It sounds like you don't believe in evolution.

God lies? Your evidence?[/QUOTE
God says he has a plan for you which is a lie. In the bible it says that god heals the sick which is another lie.

God manipulates? Your evidence?

Well think about this. God give you free will right? If he does give us free will then why do we need to give god forgiveness for our sins we did? To me it does not sound like free will at all.

What trial is that? Michael (Jesus) vs Lucifer.

And how do you know that?

You doubt that there is no judgment day for humanity? Why? Does it fit with what you want to believe? Why would you want to believe something like that?

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

Of course you dont

Only because he never was. I believe it was god who made him look like a liar.

No, not right.

Then why was hell created then?

 

[Super Universe]

I don't need to give you any proof.
Isn't jesus the son of "god"? Jesus cannot be god.


Jesus wanted to know what it was like to be human? I thought with jesus being the son of god he would know already. I guess jesus wasn't that smart enough.


You said this in the forum "Nothing in this universe existed before Jesus. Jesus is the architect of this universe."
It sounds like you don't believe in evolution.

You don't need to give me any proof? No, you don't. But, there really aren't many sources, I mean, the main one is the bible.

Isn't Jesus the son of God? He is, any man is also a son of God. And women are daughers of God.

Jesus wanted to know what it was like to be human? Hmm, don't know if He wanted to be human, I guess He did since He chose the Earth and not some other sentient being on some other planet. It's a rule. It's not God's rule, it's a very high level angelic rule set by angels called Ancients of Days. I'm not really sure if Jesus could have skipped it altogether. That would have been like a Colonel telling his men to charge a hillside while he went back into a bunker and drank tea and watched television.

Jesus, being the son of God, should know everything already? School books can teach you a lot but actually experiencing it gives you a much fuller perspective. Also, it impresses the angels when you go through it.

Jesus wasn't smart enough? Smart is being a leader who isn't afraid of getting a little dirty once in a while.

Nothing in this universe existed before Jesus is correct. Just because I believe in God and Jesus doesn't mean that evolution can't be correct. Religions can't handle the idea of evolution because, if true, that means humans aren't as important as we thought we were and, maybe, we aren't Gods only purpose.

God says He has a plan for you? Did He tell you this Himself? That's from the bible. There is a plan, you can be a part of it or not.

The bible says that God heals the sick? Yeah, humans put a lot of primitive stuff in there. You have to remember that primitive humans thought that spirits, and then God, were very involved in human affairs. God has never intervened, ever. The humans didn't know the cause of disease, drought, earthquakes, lightning, meteors, so they blamed it all on God.

God gives free will, so why do we need forgiveness for sins if He gave us free will? You are right. People have what's called a conscience, not all, but most. The conscience makes us feel regret for things we've done. Some people destroy their lives because of the things they've done in the past. Some people destroy others lives because of what someone has done to them. We can help ourselves if we learn to forgive ourselves for what we've done and forgive others. I'm not saying forget, I'm saying lose your anger over what happened.

How do I know the trial is Michael vs Lucifer? Look up in the right corner of my posts where it says my "religion". The Lucifer Rebellion starts on page 551.