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Why can't Lucifer ever be redeemed?

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Obviously the fear of prison doesn't work as an effective deterrent, but nevertheless the further we have removed the church from the state the better off we have all been (and this includes the believers, who can believe a different denomination than the state and not worry about legal consequences, unlike how we saw when the church had much power and influence in Europe).

Yet you say nothing is different in regards to sin. Both say murder is wrong and neither has the control or power to prevent people from doing it. The purpose of God giving the law is that people will recognize they are sinners and have the ability to repent. How can you repent from sin if you don't know you're sinning?
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
I am saying nothing about humans and adults. I am talking about this god who gave us his word, so they say, and how those words, the "will of god," condemned me just for being. Basically, the Bible told me in order to make it to Heaven, I had to endure morbid depression, suicidal tendencies, and an attempt. Pretty much because of god, not so much humans but god and his book, my childhood and teens were miserable.

Why would it? Should it present Satan's side, we would see a heroic figure fighting against tyranny and oppression, rightfully placed on a pedestal next to Prometheus.

CPS can do nothing about a god who tells LBGT youth they are an abomination.

It gives us his laws and the words of his prophets. I'd say that does indeed represent god, especially since we have stories like Job.

Then what of all the fires and furnaces and burnings that are mentioned?

God doesn't have to deal with a whirlwind of a two-year-old like a stay at home parent does.

So, to you the Bible is not literal? If so, then by what standards do you determine what is real and what is the ignorance of primitive humans?

Then we must rewrite history, because Hitler killed not a single Jew.

God gave us His word? And what does that mean to you? Do you think it means He is supposed to provide you with unlimited happiness and money? You have to realize that in order to describe something incredibly complex to primtive humans you have to use simple language, something they understand, but, in doing that, you greatly simplify the truth. The idea of the "word" is a vibration, the initial formation of something from nothing. The beginning of God. The Tibetan's recreate it with their "Ohmmm" chant.

The bible told you to make it to heaven you had to endure suffering? You found what you wanted to find then. I guess you missed the Book of Psalms.

Your childhood and teens were miserable? So it must be God's fault. What trauma did your parents experience when they were young for them to pass it on to you? Do you know? And, are you breaking the cycle or are you passing it on to your children?

You think Satan fought against tyranny and oppression? Lucifer and Satan and Beelzebub were all different beings involved in the Lucifer Rebellion. They rebelled against Jesus, not God, angels don't come from heaven so they never knew God. They didn't even think that God existed. They wanted to be in charge and not have Jesus as their master, so, you're idea that Satan fought for freedom is incorrect. Those that rebelled did so because they wanted to be in charge. If they really wanted freedom they could have resigned their position.

CPS can't control people's views? No, but they can put a child in a home where they are not abused.

Christians tell LBGT youth they are an abomination? Yeah, some do. Jesus never said anything about it. I always tell those kind of "Christians" that they are Jewish since they put Old Testament rules on equal terms with what Jesus preached. Jesus actually preached against the ten commandments.

The bible gives us God's laws? No, the bible gives us 3,000 year old Jewish laws that the modern Jews don't even follow anymore.

Job represents God? Does it? Why do you think that, simply because some human 3,000 years ago wrote down a story and said it came from God? We have tribes still to this day, if you took a tribal person to your house and flipped on a light switch they would think it was magic and that you were some kind of witch. Those are the people you think had real knowledge about God?

What of all the fires and burning that are mentioned in the New Testament? Humans have always received revelation from God, and from angels, the problem is that humans rarely understand the context. Humans don't know that there are many levels between the earth and heaven. Humans don't know about ascending beings and they barely knew about the Lucifer Rebellion. When John was in jail and he had a dream and saw angelic gatherings and elements of the Lucifer Rebellion ongoing he described it in the best way he could using his primitive understanding of the universe.

You are not going to be burned at the next level. You are going to receive the exact same universal education that every other being would get. You have the same chance to get into heaven that the pope has, and you will likely get there quicker than he (not that it's a race) because the pope thinks he's going to get special treatment and he won't.

God doesn't have to deal with a two year old? God is that two year old. Watch the two year old. Why are they doing the things they are doing? Are they challenging you? I bet they are, they are learning your limits and their limits. They need to know those things. Are they trying to flush the remote down the toilet? It's just a matter of time. Would you really want them to be instantly 18 and miss all of that? Every day with them as a child is a day that will be gone tomorrow forever.

To me the bible is not literal? Some parts are, you have to separate the chaff from the wheat. How do you do that? It's difficult without knowing the truth. If you want to really understand the Old Testament, I would suggest that you study primitive cultures and Jewish history. If you want to understand the New Testament, read the Urantia Book.

Why would God allow Hitler to exist? Yeah, that's difficult for people to understand. The purpose of the universe is so God can have many unique personality experiences. He couldn't do that as God. So, He created a universe and brought about simple life forms then fragmented into those life forms to give them life. He left behind angels to tend to the universal business and they made some really big mistakes.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Yet you say nothing is different in regards to sin. Both say murder is wrong and neither has the control or power to prevent people from doing it. The purpose of God giving the law is that people will recognize they are sinners and have the ability to repent. How can you repent from sin if you don't know you're sinning?
I need not repent of anything as I am not a sinner. I am also not such a horrible and bad person that I need a book to tell me murder is wrong.
 

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I need not repent of anything as I am not a sinner. I am also not such a horrible and bad person that I need a book to tell me murder is wrong.

How do you know, if you were born before the law was given you would have known murder was a sin?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
To me the bible is not literal? Some parts are, you have to separate the chaff from the wheat. How do you do that? It's difficult without knowing the truth. If you want to really understand the Old Testament, I would suggest that you study primitive cultures and Jewish history. If you want to understand the New Testament, read the Urantia Book.
So, you have no real objective standard for determining what is literal and what isn't. If one part is not literal, then why not the death/resurrection of Jesus?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
How do you know, if you were born before the law was given you would have known murder was a sin?
I know because even though I have impaired social skills and empathy, that murder is an anti-social behavior, it wrongfully ends the life of another, and we evolved to have a sense of pro-social behaviors (as does any other social animal) to have group cohesion, which increases the survivability of not the just the group but also the individual as well. And do note I do not believe in, ascribe to, or accept this notion of "sin." It's something your religion came up with, and you can keep it.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
So, you have no real objective standard for determining what is literal and what isn't. If one part is not literal, then why not the death/resurrection of Jesus?

I have no way to know what parst of the bible are literal and which aren't? But I do, you don't. You have not studied primitive cultures so, to you, when the bible says that God destroyed Soddom and Gomorah with a "fireball" from heaven, you believe it.

I know that primitives are afraid of meteors and don't understand how very hot rocks can come from the sky so they blame anything they don't understand on "spirits" or God. I also know that in ancient times some cities were a maze of small mud homes with roofs built from sticks and each home had a fire for cooking. Sometimes they actually kept the firewood for the fire inside the home as well to keep it from getting wet by rain. So, fires that broke out and destroyed half or even the entire city weren't uncommon.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Christians decided that Jesus was with God before creation? Christians don't run the universe. Neither do Jews.

There are no Tanakh verses saying the coming Messiah was with God? So. The Tanakh and $2 will get me a McCoffee.

Stop worshiping an old book written by men who were afraid of comets.

LOL! That's a good one.

YOU are telling me, - a NON-believer in the Abrahamic religions, - to stop worshiping an old book, - when you appear to be doing so?

YOU told us -

God and Jesus do not interfere. The angels do to some degree but only within very strict guidelines. You have free will, but, unfortunately, so do bad beings.

Jesus was created in heaven. Not his human body, his "spirit" form. He planned this universe. He began it. He created angels to help. The earth formed, life was planted, life evolved into humans, Jesus bestowed into a human to have that experience, He was crucified, now He's back in a higher level doing His job which is to judge ascending beings and decide who can enter heaven and who cannot.

Obviously I haven't, - but YOU HAVE, - taken a huge belief bite into the religions of Abraham!

How about we stick to answering the rebuttal.

*
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
LOL! That's a good one.

YOU are telling me, - a NON-believer in the Abrahamic religions, - to stop worshiping an old book, - when you appear to be doing so?

YOU told us -



Obviously I haven't, - but YOU HAVE, - taken a huge belief bite into the religions of Abraham!

How about we stick to answering the rebuttal.

*

My information comes from the Urantia Book, which is from the 1950's. I don't carry around a copy of it in a special "holy ark". I don't even own a printed copy of it. And I certainly don't think every word of it is the literal word of God.

I follow Abraham's religion? I don't think Abraham believed in evolution, don't think he even knew the word. I don't think Abraham knew anything about String Theory and multiple dimensions. I don't think Abraham believed in Christianity since Jesus arrived long after Abraham lived. I don't think Abraham and I have the same views on the story of Adam and Eve.

How about I answer your questions the way you think I should answer them? No.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I have no way to know what parst of the bible are literal and which aren't? But I do, you don't
You have not stated what this standard of determination is though.
You have not studied primitive cultures so, to you, when the bible says that God destroyed Soddom and Gomorah with a "fireball" from heaven, you believe it.
I've probably studied them more than you, and based on the lack of evidence I do not accept the story of Soddom and Gomorah, so I cannot even believe in it. However, according to Bible, god deliberately destroyed them because of their wickedness. It wasn't presented as a random or mysterious event, but rather an event that happened shortly after a "righteous" man offered his daughters to a mob for gang raping. The Bible makes no discernment between the destruction of S/G and the wickedness of S/G.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
...1. Hell was never created for people, it was created for the devil and his angels (Satan and his demons)... 2. Because Satan was successful at deceiving Adam and Eve to sin against God in the garden, he was successful in placing every human being in a sinful state the moment we are born. ...3. But God foiled Satans plan by having His one and only Son ... 4. Jesus manifest Himself as a human being through a virgin birth, ... 5. He paid the debt for our sin problem and then raising Himself from the dead and being seen by over 500 people as proof of this event. ...6. Jesus laid down His life for you and me ...

1. Problem with that is that there is NO HELL in Tanakh. There is only Sheol, where all the dead both good and bad rest, awaiting the Messiah. The hell idea was created later after pagan contact.

There is also NO Tanakh text saying Satan is an autonomous evil being. It says he is a servant of YHVH. Again, - later addition.

2. Tanakh does NOT say Satan was in the garden with Adam and Eve. It also says that a serpent was condemned to be a real serpent crawling on his belly and tasting the air - FOREVER!!! Is your Satan a real, dumb, serpent slithering on the ground?

3. No evil Satan, - so no evil Satan plan.

4. No virgin birth. Christians AFTER Jesus's death, having misread, and misunderstood Isaiah - no virgin there, - decided to give Jesus a "virgin" birth.

5. Rising from the dead with other dead people, - and seen by 500? Baloney. We would have texts from other than later Christians, saying this wondrous event happened.

6. Jesus was a Jew, and Human sacrifice was forbidden. And as many have pointed out, - if you can't actually die (God,) - then no sacrifice could actually have taken place.

*
 

EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
I'm fond of Allan Kardec's book "the spirits book". In that book the Spirits tell him that every Spirit will eventually be purified and made perfect. Wouldn't you prefer it if that was the case? Maybe it is. How do you know it isn't? In the Scriptures, sometimes God changes his mind. Why can't all spirits eventually be redeemed?
Lucifer has nothing to do with the Abrahamic faiths, He is not mentioned in the Christian bible. Lucifer is a pre-Christian deity of ancient Roman and Greek mythology. He is mentioned in Publius Ovidius Naso's "Metamorphoses", which was written in 8 B.C.E., Roman poet Virgil mentions him as far back as 29 B.C.E. And the first mention is from Timaeus by Plato written 360 B.C.E. The title Lucifer was used for the Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar as well as Jesus himself. This title however is directly associated with the Morning Star which appears even earlier in Phoenician/Canaan cosmology.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
My information comes from the Urantia Book, which is from the 1950's. I don't carry around a copy of it in a special "holy ark". I don't even own a printed copy of it. And I certainly don't think every word of it is the literal word of God.

I follow Abraham's religion? I don't think Abraham believed in evolution, don't think he even knew the word. I don't think Abraham knew anything about String Theory and multiple dimensions. I don't think Abraham believed in Christianity since Jesus arrived long after Abraham lived. I don't think Abraham and I have the same views on the story of Adam and Eve.

How about I answer your questions the way you think I should answer them? No.

That's funny.

By the way - I do own a copy of the Urantia Book, among my extensive library on religion and philosophy. It borrows heavily on the Abrahamic religions. And YOU even used the name - JESUS.

The book uses the whole Abrahamic story both the earlier Jewish, and later Christian, - with Joseph and Mary, etc. On pages 1344 - 1347 (of my copy) it says Gabriel selected Joseph and Mary from the chosen Hebrew people, And it says Mary's conception was supernatural, - to bring about the mortal habitat for the "child of destiny" - Jesus. It even goes through all of the supposed disciples, - even though we now know some of them were NOT the actual writers.

Obviously the writers had far to much indoctrination into Abrahamic religions when they wrote Urantia. They just added new fantasy to the Abrahamic religious story.

SkepticFiles says an ex 7th Day Adventist Preacher named Sadler, and friends, wrote it.

*
 
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Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
I see we disagree, and you are missing the point of all of this but thats ok.
Eze 28:13 In Eden the garden of the Elohiym you were/came to be; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Who is he talking about here? As I said before, there were only 4 in the Garden of Eden. He's not talking about Adam and Eve, that leaves two, God and Satan. God wasnt created, Satan was, he is referring to Satan.

Ingledsva said:
I miss nothing. As shown, it tells us whom is being described in flowery terms.

There is a serpent in the garden story - which is condemned to be a real serpent slithering on the ground forever. That is not your Satan character.

Again - flowery language - again from Christian Mr. Gill - "Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God,.... Not only in Eden, but in the garden which was in Eden, and was of the Lord's immediate planting; and therefore called the garden of God, as well as because of its excellency, fragrancy, and delight; not that the king of Tyre was literally there, or ever dwelt in it; but his situation in Tyre was as safe, and as pleasant and delightful, as Adam's was in the garden of Eden, at least in his own imagination. So the Targum,
Ingledsva said:
"thou delightest thyself with plenty of all good things and delectable ones, as if thou dwellest in the garden of God;"

This is what Gods Word says in the book of John chapter 1
In the beginning the Word already existed.
The Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
2 He existed in the beginning with God.
3 God created everything through him,
and nothing was created except through him.
4 The Word (Jesus) gave life to everything that was created,
and his life brought light to everyone.
5 The light shines in the darkness,
and the darkness can never extinguish it.

So yes, Jesus was the creator and when He was manifest as a human being He was the Messiah!

Ingledsva said:
First off, it matters not what later Christians think. They don't get to tell the Jewish people what their religion says.

Secondly, I've looked at John 1 in the Greek. And it says the Word became incased in Jesus. Not that he was the Word. Jesus never actually claims to be God. Not does he teach trinity, etc.

The Word, to Jews - would be the law and power of the ONE God YHVH. Not another being.

Last, - Jesus did not fulfill the requirements for the Jewish Messiah.

Of course there aren't. The Jews missed it! The Messiah was with them and they refused to believe in Him as the Messiah. You cant say Jesus isnt God just because the Jews and the Tanakh dont say so. Common now. They and the Tanakh are not the the authority here, Gods Word is the authority and Gods Word says Jesus is the Messiah and all of creation was done for Him and by Him. I dont know how much more plain this can be!

Baloney they missed it! You a Christian are just claiming they missed it.

Jesus was a Jew, - believing in ONE God. He never claims to be God, or part of any trinity.

*
 
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Rapture Era

Active Member
1. Problem with that is that there is NO HELL in Tanakh. There is only Sheol, where all the dead both good and bad rest, awaiting the Messiah. The hell idea was created later after pagan contact.

There is also NO Tanakh text saying Satan is an autonomous evil being. It says he is a servant of YHVH. Again, - later addition.

2. Tanakh does NOT say Satan was in the garden with Adam and Eve. It also says that a serpent was condemned to be a real serpent crawling on his belly and tasting the air - FOREVER!!! Is your Satan a real, dumb, serpent slithering on the ground?

3. No evil Satan, - so no evil Satan plan.

4. No virgin birth. Christians AFTER Jesus's death, having misread, and misunderstood Isaiah - no virgin there, - decided to give Jesus a "virgin" birth.

5. Rising from the dead with other dead people, - and seen by 500? Baloney. We would have texts from other than later Christians, saying this wondrous event happened.

6. Jesus was a Jew, and Human sacrifice was forbidden. And as many have pointed out, - if you can't actually die (God,) - then no sacrifice could actually have taken place.

*
Okie dokie then, good luck with that!:)
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
That's funny.

By the way - I do own a copy of the Urantia Book, among my extensive library on religion and philosophy. It borrows heavily on the Abrahamic religions. And YOU even used the name - JESUS.

The book uses the whole Abrahamic story both the earlier Jewish, and later Christian, - with Joseph and Mary, etc. On pages 1344 - 1347 (of my copy) it says Gabriel selected Joseph and Mary from the chosen Hebrew people, And it says Mary's conception was supernatural, - to bring about the mortal habitat for the "child of destiny" - Jesus. It even goes through all of the supposed disciples, - even though we now know some of them were NOT the actual writers.

Obviously the writers had far to much indoctrination into Abrahamic religions when they wrote Urantia. They just added new fantasy to the Abrahamic religious story.

SkepticFiles says an ex 7th Day Adventist Preacher named Sadler, and friends, wrote it.

*

I used the name Jesus? I'm sure I did. So, you define Christianity as Abrahamic, but, didn't Jesus arrive about 1,000 years after Abraham existed?

The UB uses the whole Abrahamic story? Really? I didn't know Abraham proposed that Adam and Eve were really angels and that humans evolved from lower life forms. And, if Abraham knew about the many levels of the universe and the many different angels, well, he left that out. And he left out the part about the Lucifer Rebellion too.

Even history books include information about Jewish history, that doesn't make them "Abrahamic".

UB 119:7.5 ...the Jewish baby, was conceived and born into the world just as all other babies before and since...

The UB writer had too much indoctrination of Abrahamic religion when they wrote Urantia? So, a guy from the 1950's received "Abrahamic" indoctrination from somewhere that gave him 1,800 pages worth of information on the God the Sevenfold, God the Ultimate, God hte Absolute, the Trinity, the Eternal Son, Personality, Spirit-Gravity, the seven Bestowal's of Jesus, Universe Reflectivity, the Unqualified Absolute, Divinington, Sonarington, Spiritington, Life in Havona, the Seven Superuniverses, the Architeture Spheres, the Eternal of Days, the Ancient of Days, and much more that I have not mentioned? Wow, I must have missed all of those things in the Old Testament. What pages are they on?

SkepticFiles says that a preacher named Sadler wrote it? That might be true. Are you under the impression that the validity of information is determined by the validity of the source?
 

Luciferi Baphomet

Lucifer, is my Liberator
Sometimes prayers are blocked, sometimes generational sins and curses separate us from the blessings of prayer as well as impatience (like Abraham & Sarah) or unbelief (like the Israelites in taking over the promised land).
  • So if god is all powerful why does he let prayer get blocked?
  • I honestly don't believe that sin exists. It was made up for control.
  • Also if jesus died on the cross for our sins then what was the whole point of him coming back from the dead 3 days later? It just sounds more life he didn't die for anything.

Maybe you haven't gotten to the pangs of the soul where you cry for god (even those who don't believe in one get there) because your sufferment is at its utmost and death is even a part of your prayer (as is forgiveness and atonement.)
  • I really don't want to cry for god. Their is no need for me too. It would be a waste.

daughter of the ruler of the earth so I'll elaborate, sometimes we're like: Why god???? Whyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!!!! It can be as complex as I first mentioned or as simple as A+B=C and god has really nothing to do with the consequences of things.
  • He kinda does when he is the one who is in control of this world (The creator).
 
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