Why can't Lucifer ever be redeemed?

[Ingledsva]

Ingledsva,
Thank you for your response! And yes, I made a mistake, I meant to write Ezekiel 28 not 24, sorry about that. I wasnt expecting to respond to you with a long response but these are very interesting passages and I would like to explain my view of context as you have done. I too believe context is very important.
The story of Lucifer’s fall is described in two key Old Testament chapters—Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14. So I'd like to look briefly at both of these.

It would seem from the context of Ezekiel 28 that the first ten verses of this chapter are dealing with a human leader. Then, starting in verse 11 and on through verse 19, Lucifer is the focus of discussion.

What is the rationale for the conclusion that these latter verses refer to the fall of Lucifer? Whereas the first ten verses in this chapter speak about the ruler of Tyre (who was condemned for claiming to be a god though he was just a man), the discussion moves to the king of Tyre starting in verse 11. Many scholars believe that though there was a human “ruler” of Tyre, the real “king” of Tyre was Satan, for it was he who was ultimately at work in this anti-God city and it was he who worked through the human ruler of the city.

Some have suggested that these verses may actually be dealing with a human king of Tyre who was empowered by Satan. Perhaps the historic king of Tyre was a tool of Satan, possibly even indwelt by him. In describing this king, Ezekiel also gives us glimpses of the superhuman creature, Satan, who was using, if not indwelling, him.

Now, there are things that are true of this “king” that—at least ultimately—cannot be said to be true of human beings. For example, the king is portrayed as having a different nature from man (he is a cherub, verse 14); he had a different position from man (he was blameless and sinless, verse 15); he was in a different realm from man (the holy mount of God, verses 13,14); he received a different judgment from man (he was cast out of the mountain of God and thrown to the earth, verse 16); and the superlatives used to describe him don’t seem to fit that of a normal human being (“full of wisdom,” “perfect in beauty,” and having “the seal of perfection,” verse 12 NASB).
Also, I should back up a bit to make this point. Verse 13 "You were in Eden, the garden of God;" There were only four in the garden of Eden; God, Satan, Adam & Eve.
Our text tells us that this king was a created being and left the creative hand of God in a perfect state (Ezekiel 28:12,15). And he remained perfect in his ways until iniquity was found in him (verse 15b). What was this iniquity? We read in verse 17, “Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor.” Lucifer apparently became so impressed with his own beauty, intelligence, power, and position that he began to desire for himself the honor and glory that belonged to God alone. The sin that corrupted Lucifer was self-generated pride. There is that word again. What comes before a fall? PRIDE!

Apparently, this represents the actual beginning of sin in the universe—preceding the fall of the human Eve and then Adam by an indeterminate time. Sin originated in the free will of Lucifer in which—with full understanding of the issues involved—he chose to rebel against the Creator.

This mighty angelic being was rightfully judged by God: “I threw you to the earth” (Ezekiel 28:18). This doesn’t mean that Satan had no further access to heaven, for other Scripture verses clearly indicate that Satan maintained this access even after his fall (Job 1:6-12; Zechariah 3:1,2). However, Ezekiel 28:18 indicates that Satan was absolutely and completely cast out of God’s heavenly government and his place of authority (Luke 10:18).

Isaiah 14:12-17 is another Old Testament passage that may refer to the fall of Lucifer. We must be frank in admitting that some Bible scholars see no reference whatsoever to Lucifer in this passage. It is argued that the being mentioned in this verse is referred to as a man (Isaiah 14:16); is compared with other kings on the earth (verse 18); and the words, “How you have fallen from heaven” (verse 12), is alleged to refer to a fall from great political heights.

There are other scholars who interpret this passage as referring only to the fall of Lucifer, with no reference whatsoever to a human king. The argument here is that the description of this being is beyond humanness and hence could not refer to a mere mortal man.

There is a third view that I think is preferable to the two views above. This view sees Isaiah 14:12-17 as having a dual reference. It may be that verses 4 through 11 deal with an actual king of Babylon. Then, in verses 12 through 17, we find a dual reference that includes not just the king of Babylon but a typological description of Lucifer as well.

If this passage contains a reference to the fall of Lucifer, then the pattern of this passage would seem to fit that of the Ezekiel 28 reference—that is, first a human leader is described, and then dual reference is made to a human leader and Satan.

It is significant that the language used to describe this being fits other passages in the Bible that speak about Satan. For example, the five “I wills” in Isaiah 14 indicate an element of pride, which was also evidenced in Ezekiel 28:17 (cf. 1 Timothy 3:6 which makes reference to Satan’s conceit).

As a result of this heinous sin against God, Lucifer was banished from living in heaven (Isaiah 14:12). He became corrupt, and his name changed from Lucifer (“morning star”) to Satan (“adversary”). His power became completely perverted (Isaiah 14:12,16,17). And his destiny, following the second coming of Christ, is to be bound in a pit during the 1000-year millennial kingdom over which Christ will rule (Revelation 20:3), and eventually will be thrown into the lake of fire (Matthew 25:41). So in total context, we see that it is ultimately about Lucifer/Satan. Hope this helps.

Sorry - pure baloney.

They are not talking about any Satan. They tell us whom they are talking about.

There is no duel man/Satan going on.

Ask the Jews whose texts these are. This is not talking about Satan/Lucifer.

And again - there is NO Lucifer. Translation error, and Christian misunderstanding.

They are just using flowery language.

You need to reread what I wrote.

They are talking about a kingdom, area, and a human.

They don't switch for a few verses, from a human King, to Satan, just because you want them to.

Did you miss the Christian commentary?

"Ezekiel 28:14
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth,.... In allusion to the cherubim over the mercy seat, which covered it with their wings; and which, as the ark of the testimony and all the vessels of the tabernacle were anointed, were so likewise; in all probability the king of Tyre is called a "cherub" because of his wisdom and power; "anointed", because of his royal dignity; and "that covereth", because of his office, which was to protect his people;..." Gill's Exposition of the entire Bible.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

...
The story of Lucifer’s fall is described in two key Old Testament chapters—Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14. So I'd like to look briefly at both of these.
...

Here is Isaiah 14 for you, - showing it is a MAN.

Isaiah is talking about a fallen Babylonian King. Again, people reading it got it wrong.

Isa 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor failed! the golden city failed!

Isa 14:5 YHVH hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the scepter of the rulers.

Isa 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven (a height), O Bright rising star, son of the morning!(not Lucifer, HEYLEL) how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven (the heights), I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to Sheol/grave, to the sides of the pit.

Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

Isa 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Isa 14:18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

Isa 14:19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; a carcass trodden under feet.

As you can see it specifically tells us this is a MAN, that becomes a CARCASS.

*

 

[gnostic]

I'm fond of Allan Kardec's book "the spirits book". In that book the Spirits tell him that every Spirit will eventually be purified and made perfect. Wouldn't you prefer it if that was the case? Maybe it is. How do you know it isn't? In the Scriptures, sometimes God changes his mind. Why can't all spirits eventually be redeemed?

Lucifer is a Christian character invented centuries after the gospels were written. Lucifer is only mentioned once, but only in a Latin translation of Isaiah 14:12, which doesn't exist in the original Hebrew language or the Greek Septuagint.

Isaiah certainly didn't know of anyone by the name of "Lucifer". If Isaiah was alive today and read his passage (Isaiah 14:12) from either the Vulgate bible or the KJV, he would be perplexed and would most likely ask us: "Who's the hell is this Lucifer?"

Saint Jerome wasn't saying that Lucifer was Satan. The connection between Lucifer and Isaiah's "morning star" didn't happen until the 13th century.

So no one writing in the Old Testament and New Testament identified Satan with Lucifer. This equating Lucifer with Satan or with the Devil came much later.

So why would Lucifer, who don't exist, needs "redeeming"?

Ok, the medieval church teachings started this Satan aka the Devil aka "Lucifer" thingy.

But the Jewish version of Satan and Christian version of Satan are two completely different characters.

According to Judaism, Satan is one of God's angels; he worked for god. According to Judaism, angels have no free-will; so if there are no free will, there are no rebellion or war in heaven. And no free will means that angels cannot fall.

The whole concept of angels rebelling, and Lucifer or Satan leading the fallen angels are Christian and pagan concept, not a Jewish one.

So it is pointless of asking the question to Jews can Lucifer be redeemed. Lucifer don't exist, and Satan don't require redeeming since angels don't have free will.

Your question is only valid to Christians.

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

You don't need to give me any proof? No, you don't. But, there really aren't many sources, I mean, the main one is the bible.

Not everything in the bible is true.

And women are daughers of God.

In spirituality.

Jesus wanted to know what it was like to be human? Hmm, don't know if He wanted to be human, I guess He did since He chose the Earth and not some other sentient being on some other planet. It's a rule. It's not God's rule, it's a very high level angelic rule set by angels called Ancients of Days. I'm not really sure if Jesus could have skipped it altogether. That would have been like a Colonel telling his men to charge a hillside while he went back into a bunker and drank tea and watched television.

What if he wanted to be human? What he was trying to gain something from us?

Jesus, being the son of God, should know everything already? School books can teach you a lot but actually experiencing it gives you a much fuller perspective. Also, it impresses the angels when you go through it.

I already got one experience from this one angel and no I am not talking about Lucifer.
It was 4 years being lied and manipulated by that angel.
To me it shows that god, christ, and the angels are all worthless.

Nothing in this universe existed before Jesus is correct. Just because I believe in God and Jesus doesn't mean that evolution can't be correct. Religions can't handle the idea of evolution because, if true, that means humans aren't as important as we thought we were and, maybe, we aren't Gods only purpose.

I don't think you really get what I am saying.
You are saying that nothing existed before jesus. So it seems that evolution never happened.

God says He has a plan for you? Did He tell you this Himself? That's from the bible. There is a plan, you can be a part of it or not.

Isn't that in the bible?

The bible says that God heals the sick? Yeah, humans put a lot of primitive stuff in there. You have to remember that primitive humans thought that spirits, and then God, were very involved in human affairs. God has never intervened, ever. The humans didn't know the cause of disease, drought, earthquakes, lightning, meteors, so they blamed it all on God.

Doesn't god know everything about this world he made?

God gives free will, so why do we need forgiveness for sins if He gave us free will? You are right. People have what's called a conscience, not all, but most. The conscience makes us feel regret for things we've done. Some people destroy their lives because of the things they've done in the past. Some people destroy others lives because of what someone has done to them. We can help ourselves if we learn to forgive ourselves for what we've done and forgive others. I'm not saying forget, I'm saying lose your anger over what happened.

The debates I have gotten with other christians is that they told me that god gives you free will.
I do doubt that he does gives anyone free will.

How do I know the trial is Michael vs Lucifer? Look up in the right corner of my posts where it says my "religion". The Lucifer Rebellion starts on page 551.

This will be interesting then.

 

[Ingledsva]

...
The story of Lucifer’s fall is described in two key Old Testament chapters—Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14. So I'd like to look briefly at both of these.
...
So in total context, we see that it is ultimately about Lucifer/Satan. Hope this helps.

And more on Ezekiel 28.

Ezekiel 28:12-14, is about a human, not Satan.

These "flowery" verses are mistranslated as being about Satan. THEY ARE NOT!

If you go back a few books in Ezekiel, you will find this is an actual war, and YHVH says he will destroy the seaside city of Tyre.

Eze 24:2 Son of man, write thee the name of the day, even of this same day: the king of Babylon set himself against Jerusalem this same day.

Eze 25:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will stretch out mine hand upon the Philistines, and I will cut off the Cherethims, and destroy the remnant of the sea coast.

Eze 26:2 Son of man, because that Tyrus hath said against Jerusalem, Aha, she is broken that was the gates of the people: she is turned unto me: I shall be replenished, now she is laid waste:

Eze 26:3 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up.

Eze 26:4 And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock.

Eze 26:7 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.

Eze 26:16 Then all the princes of the sea shall come down from their thrones, and lay away their robes, and put off their broidered garments: they shall clothe themselves with trembling; they shall sit upon the ground, and shall tremble at every moment, and be astonished at thee.

Eze 26:17 And they shall take up a lamentation for thee, and say to thee, How art thou destroyed, that wast inhabited of seafaring men, the renowned city, which wast strong in the sea, she and her inhabitants, which cause their terror to be on all that haunt it!

Eze 27:3 And say unto Tyrus, O thou that art situate at the entry of the sea, which art a merchant of the people for many isles, Thus saith the Lord GOD; O Tyrus, thou hast said, I am of perfect beauty.

Eze 27:32 And in their wailing they shall take up a lamentation for thee, and lament over thee, saying, What city is like Tyrus, like the destroyed in the midst of the sea?

Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a El, I sit in the seat of the Elohiym, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not El,though thou set thine heart as the heart of the Elohiym:

These were mistranslated. They actually use "el," "Elohiym," etc., and we KNOW that these terms are used for the mighty: Kings, Princes, Judges, Priests, etc. El also means Mighty, Powerful, etc.

Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

Eze 28:13 In Eden the garden of the Elohiym you were/came to be; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Eze 28:14 Thou were a cherub anointed; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Real places - Mountain of God, etc, the stones were worn by Kings, Priest, Judges, etc.

In other words flowery language, - meaning HE/they, Prince and city, thought they were beautiful, Great, and Mighty, Elohiym/Princes, etc. whom because of their assumed stature, took a great fall.

Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Other cities are destroyed before these verses - and more cities are destroyed after these verses. They are not in any sense talking about Satan.

*

 

[Super Universe]

Not everything in the bible is true.


In spirituality.


What if he wanted to be human? What he was trying to gain something from us?


I already got one experience from this one angel and no I am not talking about Lucifer.
It was 4 years being lied and manipulated by that angel.
To me it shows that god, christ, and the angels are all worthless.


I don't think you really get what I am saying.
You are saying that nothing existed before jesus. So it seems that evolution never happened.


Isn't that in the bible?


Doesn't god know everything about this world he made?


The debates I have gotten with other christians is that they told me that god gives you free will.
I do doubt that he does gives anyone free will.


This will be interesting then.

Not everything in the bible is true? You're telling me.

What if Jesus wanted to be human? No, no way. When you are a being created in heaven and you plan and form a universe to assist God is His plan you are fully committed to it.

Was Jesus trying to gain something from us? Experience. You can look up the word human in a dictionary but it doesn't quite give you the complete experience.

You were lied and manipulated by an angel? That was no angel. There are many universal levels and many ascended beings. Not all higher level beings are good. If you have abilities you should be very careful. They like to pretend to be angels and sometimes even God because they know we don't know about the many levels and so we think a voice in our head must be God.

God and Jesus do not interfere. The angels do to some degree but only within very strict guidelines. You have free will, but, unfortunately, so do bad beings.

Jesus was created in heaven. Not his human body, his "spirit" form. He planned this universe. He began it. He created angels to help. The earth formed, life was planted, life evolved into humans, Jesus bestowed into a human to have that experience, He was crucified, now He's back in a higher level doing His job which is to judge ascending beings and decide who can enter heaven and who cannot.

Doesn't God know everything about this world that He made? Yes, you think He should get involved and change some things? Think of a couple who has children. Now, before they have them they know that the kids will probably, at some point, have a bad experience, but, they have kids anyway? Why?

We have free will but it's not without limits. We can't fly. We can't do magic. And it's not just for us, it's for God. God fragmented His form into what we call souls. The soul connects with humans to gain experience. God is not running the universe. He is the universe.

 

[Ingledsva]

Not everything in the bible is true? You're telling me.

What if Jesus wanted to be human? No, no way. When you are a being created in heaven and you plan and form a universe to assist God is His plan you are fully committed to it.

Was Jesus trying to gain something from us? Experience. You can look up the word human in a dictionary but it doesn't quite give you the complete experience.

You were lied and manipulated by an angel? That was no angel. There are many universal levels and many ascended beings. Not all higher level beings are good. If you have abilities you should be very careful. They like to pretend to be angels and sometimes even God because they know we don't know about the many levels and so we think a voice in our head must be God.

God and Jesus do not interfere. The angels do to some degree but only within very strict guidelines. You have free will, but, unfortunately, so do bad beings.

Jesus was created in heaven. Not his human body, his "spirit" form. He planned this universe. He began it. He created angels to help. The earth formed, life was planted, life evolved into humans, Jesus bestowed into a human to have that experience, He was crucified, now He's back in a higher level doing His job which is to judge ascending beings and decide who can enter heaven and who cannot.

Doesn't God know everything about this world that He made? Yes, you think He should get involved and change some things? Think of a couple who has children. Now, before they have them they know that the kids will probably, at some point, have a bad experience, but, they have kids anyway? Why?

We have free will but it's not without limits. We can't fly. We can't do magic. And it's not just for us, it's for God. God fragmented His form into what we call souls. The soul connects with humans to gain experience. God is not running the universe. He is the universe.

Christians decided Jesus, - whom they think is the Messiah, - was with God before creation.

There are no Tanakh verses saying the coming Jewish Messiah was with God before, and helped with creation.

*

 

[Super Universe]

Christians decided Jesus, - whom they think is the Messiah, - was with God before creation.

There are no Tanakh verses saying the coming Jewish Messiah was with God before, and helped with creation.

*

Christians decided that Jesus was with God before creation? Christians don't run the universe. Neither do Jews.

There are no Tanakh verses saying the coming Messiah was with God? So. The Tanakh and $2 will get me a McCoffee.

Stop worshiping an old book written by men who were afraid of comets.

 

[Cateau]

I highly doubt God listens to all who repent to him. God only wants power. What is the point of Jesus dying for our sins if we have to ask God for forgiveness of our sins and to repent?
I wouldn't ask God for forgiveness and nor would I repent.

Sometimes prayers are blocked, sometimes generational sins and curses separate us from the blessings of prayer as well as impatience (like Abraham & Sarah) or unbelief (like the Israelites in taking over the promised land). Maybe you haven't gotten to the pangs of the soul where you cry for god (even those who don't believe in one get there) because your sufferment is at its utmost and death is even a part of your prayer (as is forgiveness and atonement.) It may have to do with your being a daughter of the ruler of the earth so I'll elaborate, sometimes we're like: Why god???? Whyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!!!! It can be as complex as I first mentioned or as simple as A+B=C and god has really nothing to do with the consequences of things.

Daniel 10:12-13
Then he continued, "Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your god, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them. But the kingdom of Persia blocked my way. Then Michael, one of the archangels, came to help me, and I left him there with the spirit prince of the kingdom of Persia.

Tobias 3:7-8
Now it happened on the same day, that Sara daughter of Raguel, in Rages a city of the Medes, received a reproach from one of her father's servant maids, Because she had been given to seven husbands, and a devil named Asmodeus had killed them, at their first going in unto her.

Psalms 127:1-2
Unless the lord builds the house, those who build it labor in vain. Unless the lord watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain. It is in vain that you rise up early and go late to rest,
eating the bread of anxious toil; god gives to his beloved sleep.

Even you as a daughter know that your "father" has understanding above yours, as we do over our own children; and in like manner we listen to what our children have to say (they tend to quell our anger), we work with them but they don't have the capacity to see that we are "unfair" or "cruel" to them because we see things from a more advanced (if you will) position and though their pain is ours we do what we must to get them to adulthood. Tougher yet it is to get humanity to be spiritually moral. Death came to the Son so that no messenger would ever fall again because they'd have no argument against His unfailing love. The Son is of the triune, existing before the fall of man, but came as one in our plane because god can't die otherwise.

Enoch 16:2-4
And now as to the Watchers who have sent you to intercede for them, who have been in heaven before, (say to them) "You were in heaven, but all the mysteries of heaven had not been revealed to you, and you knew worthless ones, and these in the hardness of your hearts you have made known to the women, and through these mysteries women and men work much evil on earth." Say to them therefore: "You have no peace."

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

The debates I have gotten with other christians is that they told me that god gives you free will.

If only we had the free will to choose free will, right?

 

[Rapture Era]

Only because he never was. I believe it was god who made him look like a liar.

Then why was hell created then?

*Ok, you keep believing that.
* Glad you asked. Hell was never created for people, it was created for the devil and his angels (Satan and his demons).
Because Satan was successful at deceiving Adam and Eve to sin against God in the garden, he was successful in placing every human being in a sinful state the moment we are born. Satan knew, that because of what he did, every human being was now destined to spend eternity in hell which was his goal, to destroy Gods creation because he hates God and we are created in the image of God, therefore he hates us as well.
But God foiled Satans plan by having His one and only Son Jesus manifest Himself as a human being through a virgin birth, live a sinless life, died on the cross and in doing so, He paid the debt for our sin problem and then raising Himself from the dead and being seen by over 500 people as proof of this event. In the book of John chapter 3 beginning in verse 16-17 it says this.
16“For God loved the world (Meaning His creation of human beings) so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish (in hell) but have eternal life (in heaven). 17God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him."
So how do we escape an eternity in hell after we die? Answer: In the book of Romans chapter 10 verse 9.
"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
Wow! That was a pretty awesome thing God did because He loves you and me dont you think?
We think it is noble when we hear of a soldier falling on a grenade to save his buddies right? Jesus said in the book of John chapter 15 verse 13
"There is no greater love than to lay down one's life for one's friends."
Jesus laid down His life for you and me because of His love for us and He wants us to be with Him in heaven forever when we die. I certainly dont know of anyone in any belief system that says they love us so much that they would do this, NO ONE! No Buddha, No Allah, none of them!
Jesus is the only one! Which is why He has the authority to say, "I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father (or gets into heaven) except through me!" Now, you can choose to believe in Him and be saved from the lake of fire or reject Him and choose to spend all of eternity in hell and the lake of fire, but that seems kind of dumb doesn't it? Why would anyone want that? Your choice (here is your free will in action). But know this, because you now and probably have heard this many times before, you are without excuse. You can never say "I didnt know", because now you know. The question is, what are you going to do about it?

 

[Rapture Era]

And more on Ezekiel 28.

Ezekiel 28:12-14, is about a human, not Satan.

These "flowery" verses are mistranslated as being about Satan. THEY ARE NOT!

If you go back a few books in Ezekiel, you will find this is an actual war, and YHVH says he will destroy the seaside city of Tyre.

Eze 24:2 Son of man, write thee the name of the day, even of this same day: the king of Babylon set himself against Jerusalem this same day.

Eze 25:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will stretch out mine hand upon the Philistines, and I will cut off the Cherethims, and destroy the remnant of the sea coast.

Eze 26:2 Son of man, because that Tyrus hath said against Jerusalem, Aha, she is broken that was the gates of the people: she is turned unto me: I shall be replenished, now she is laid waste:

Eze 26:3 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up.

Eze 26:4 And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock.

Eze 26:7 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.

Eze 26:16 Then all the princes of the sea shall come down from their thrones, and lay away their robes, and put off their broidered garments: they shall clothe themselves with trembling; they shall sit upon the ground, and shall tremble at every moment, and be astonished at thee.

Eze 26:17 And they shall take up a lamentation for thee, and say to thee, How art thou destroyed, that wast inhabited of seafaring men, the renowned city, which wast strong in the sea, she and her inhabitants, which cause their terror to be on all that haunt it!

Eze 27:3 And say unto Tyrus, O thou that art situate at the entry of the sea, which art a merchant of the people for many isles, Thus saith the Lord GOD; O Tyrus, thou hast said, I am of perfect beauty.

Eze 27:32 And in their wailing they shall take up a lamentation for thee, and lament over thee, saying, What city is like Tyrus, like the destroyed in the midst of the sea?

Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a El, I sit in the seat of the Elohiym, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not El,though thou set thine heart as the heart of the Elohiym:

These were mistranslated. They actually use "el," "Elohiym," etc., and we KNOW that these terms are used for the mighty: Kings, Princes, Judges, Priests, etc. El also means Mighty, Powerful, etc.

Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

Eze 28:13 In Eden the garden of the Elohiym you were/came to be; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Eze 28:14 Thou were a cherub anointed; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Real places - Mountain of God, etc, the stones were worn by Kings, Priest, Judges, etc.

In other words flowery language, - meaning HE/they, Prince and city, thought they were beautiful, Great, and Mighty, Elohiym/Princes, etc. whom because of their assumed stature, took a great fall.

Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Other cities are destroyed before these verses - and more cities are destroyed after these verses. They are not in any sense talking about Satan.
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I see we disagree, and you are missing the point of all of this but thats ok.
Eze 28:13 In Eden the garden of the Elohiym you were/came to be; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Who is he talking about here? As I said before, there were only 4 in the Garden of Eden. He's not talking about Adam and Eve, that leaves two, God and Satan. God wasnt created, Satan was, he is referring to Satan.

Christians decided Jesus, - whom they think is the Messiah, - was with God before creation.

There are no Tanakh verses saying the coming Jewish Messiah was with God before, and helped with creation.
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1) This is what Gods Word says in the book of John chapter 1:
In the beginning the Word already existed.
The Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
2 He existed in the beginning with God.
3 God created everything through him,
and nothing was created except through him.
4 The Word (Jesus) gave life to everything that was created,
and his life brought light to everyone.
5 The light shines in the darkness,
and the darkness can never extinguish it.
So yes, Jesus was the creator and when He was manifest as a human being He was the Messiah!

2) Of course there aren't. The Jews missed it! The Messiah was with them and they refused to believe in Him as the Messiah. You cant say Jesus isnt God just because the Jews and the Tanakh dont say so. Common now. They and the Tanakh are not the the authority here, Gods Word is the authority and Gods Word says Jesus is the Messiah and all of creation was done for Him and by Him. I dont know how much more plain this can be!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You're outright rejection of the concept of sin indicates it's probably not a human invention. Who would invent that?

Men who are desperate for control and power. The mere fact this notion of "sin" is not universally native to all human cultures is a very strong indication it is a human invention. After all, it's easier to get people to fall in line when it's not you telling them what it do, it's god himself and you really don't want to anger him.

Godly love is giving you a way out of punishment for sin.

I am not a sinner, thus I need no "way out" of this alleged punishment.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

And women are daughers of God.

If God is my father, I demand to take him to court over neglect, abuse, and to pay for the many years of suffering and torments he put me through. But I more look up to Satan and Lilith and parental figures anyways, because good parents don't make their children feel suicidal. That, and my real mom is way more loving of her children and far more patient and forgiving with us than what your god ever showed to his own "children" throughout Bible. God sends people to Hell for all eternity, my mom cannot and understand, fathom, or comprehend why a parent would kick their child out of their home. And unlike God who is way out there and no actually in a physical proximity, my mom does not have such a "Heaven/Earth" distance to separate her from a scornful child or rude and obnoxious grandkids. And also unlike god who becomes wrathful, vengeful, destructive, and deadly when his children disobey, my mom is devastated when a child of hers turns away and she never banishes them. And if my mom were a goddess, anyone who tried to take her children into slavery would explode into geysers of blood and gore, and she most certainly would not have killed anyone's first born in retaliation.

 

[Super Universe]

If God is my father, I demand to take him to court over neglect, abuse, and to pay for the many years of suffering and torments he put me through. But I more look up to Satan and Lilith and parental figures anyways, because good parents don't make their children feel suicidal. That, and my real mom is way more loving of her children and far more patient and forgiving with us than what your god ever showed to his own "children" throughout Bible. God sends people to Hell for all eternity, my mom cannot and understand, fathom, or comprehend why a parent would kick their child out of their home. And unlike God who is way out there and no actually in a physical proximity, my mom does not have such a "Heaven/Earth" distance to separate her from a scornful child or rude and obnoxious grandkids. And also unlike god who becomes wrathful, vengeful, destructive, and deadly when his children disobey, my mom is devastated when a child of hers turns away and she never banishes them. And if my mom were a goddess, anyone who tried to take her children into slavery would explode into geysers of blood and gore, and she most certainly would not have killed anyone's first born in retaliation.

Right, you think it should all be about you. You think God should have made all the adults in your life good little robots with no free will.

You look up to Satan? The bible does not provide you with enough information to look up to him. Because of what humans have done to you, you have twisted things, to you, good is now bad and bad has become good.

Childhood is 18 years, then you can leave. If things are really bad and you can't stay, call Child Protective Services.

The bible does not represent God. It represents primitive humans who lived 2,000 years ago who were so ignorant about natural events that they thought it was all caused by God. They thought meteors were fireballs from heaven, sent by God.

God sends people to hell? No, He doesn't. No such place exists. What Jesus was talking about was a separation from God, AND, He meant it for Lucifer and the other angels who had begun a rebellion. Separation from God means you cease to exist. Humans think that everything Jesus said was for them, some things were for the angels.

God is not way out there. He connects with you through the soul. He experiences everything you experience. He knows you and I are having this discussion, He knows it from your side and from mine. You are the reason for the universe to exist.

God becomes wrathful when His children disobey? Primitive humans thought that every natural event was an act of God. They still call those things "Acts of God". But God did none of it. Humans now know what causes disease, drought, meteors, earthquakes... God does not interfere. Your free will is important to Him.

God did not kill anyone's first born. The Jews wanted a God that was powerful, so they exaggerated in their writings. They wanted God to be all about them. The Jews wanted God to punish their enemies and make them powerful and superior to others. God did not part the Red Sea, either. The Jews made it up. The early Christians did some of that too when they wrote that Mary was a virgin. People always want "their" God to be better than other's God.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Right, you think it should all be about you. You think God should have made all the adults in your life good little robots with no free will.

I am saying nothing about humans and adults. I am talking about this god who gave us his word, so they say, and how those words, the "will of god," condemned me just for being. Basically, the Bible told me in order to make it to Heaven, I had to endure morbid depression, suicidal tendencies, and an attempt. Pretty much because of god, not so much humans but god and his book, my childhood and teens were miserable.

You look up to Satan? The bible does not provide you with enough information to look up to him. Because of what humans have done to you, you have twisted things, to you, good is now bad and bad has become good.

Why would it? Should it present Satan's side, we would see a heroic figure fighting against tyranny and oppression, rightfully placed on a pedestal next to Prometheus.

Childhood is 18 years, then you can leave. If things are really bad and you can't stay, call Child Protective Services.

CPS can do nothing about a god who tells LBGT youth they are an abomination.

The bible does not represent God.

It gives us his laws and the words of his prophets. I'd say that does indeed represent god, especially since we have stories like Job.

God sends people to hell? No, He doesn't. No such place exists. What Jesus was talking about was a separation from God, AND, He meant it for Lucifer and the other angels who had begun a rebellion. Separation from God means you cease to exist. Humans think that everything Jesus said was for them, some things were for the angels.

Then what of all the fires and furnaces and burnings that are mentioned?

God is not way out there. He connects with you through the soul.

God doesn't have to deal with a whirlwind of a two-year-old like a stay at home parent does.

God becomes wrathful when His children disobey? Primitive humans thought that every natural event was an act of God. They still call those things "Acts of God". But God did none of it. Humans now know what causes disease, drought, meteors, earthquakes... God does not interfere. Your free will is important to Him.

So, to you the Bible is not literal? If so, then by what standards do you determine what is real and what is the ignorance of primitive humans?

God did not kill anyone's first born.

Then we must rewrite history, because Hitler killed not a single Jew.

 

[Kemosloby]

Men who are desperate for control and power. The mere fact this notion of "sin" is not universally native to all human cultures is a very strong indication it is a human invention. After all, it's easier to get people to fall in line when it's not you telling them what it do, it's god himself and you really don't want to anger him.

I am not a sinner, thus I need no "way out" of this alleged punishment.

Does the government need religion for control and power or is fear of prison enough?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Some accused Moses of the same thing. They said you led out out of Egypt to rule over us yourself, they wanted to go back to Egypt. Yet others didn't feel the same way.

That really proves nothing; I can call those who left wise as they say behind the smoke and mirrors and slights of hand, while you may say those who believed were the wise ones.

 

[Kemosloby]

Some accused Moses of the same thing. They said you led out out of Egypt to rule over us yourself, they wanted to go back to Egypt. Yet others didn't feel the same way.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Does the government need religion for control and power or is fear of prison enough?

Obviously the fear of prison doesn't work as an effective deterrent, but nevertheless the further we have removed the church from the state the better off we have all been (and this includes the believers, who can believe a different denomination than the state and not worry about legal consequences, unlike how we saw when the church had much power and influence in Europe).