Why can't Muslims criticize Islam

[LuisDantas]

It's in the next verse

And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.(2:192)

Thank you.

Now, if you do not mind, I have a few questions.

By your reading, what is meant by "disbelievers" in this verse?

What provision, if any, is there in the Qur'an to avoid the possibility of round after round of mutual accusations of Muslims accusing other people (some of which may well be Muslims, mind you) of having expelled their people "previously"?

What do you understand "fitnah" to mean in this verse? How and why would it be worse than killing?

Is the al-Masjid al- Haram mentioned here the well-known Mosque in Makkah?

 

[FearGod]

Thank you.

Now, if you do not mind, I have a few questions.

You're welcome

By your reading, what is meant by "disbelievers" in this verse?

The ones fighting the believers for their beliefs

What provision, if any, is there in the Qur'an to avoid the possibility of round after round of mutual accusations of Muslims accusing other people (some of which may well be Muslims, mind you) of having expelled their people "previously"?

If Muslims were settled in one place and the disbelievers expelled them then the believers
should fight back to return to their own lands.

What do you understand "fitnah" to mean in this verse? How and why would it be worse than killing?

Fitnah is the tool for initiating a war between 2 groups, it's making a plan to let people fight.

Is the al-Masjid al- Haram mentioned here the well-known Mosque in Makkah?

Yes it's

 

[Shad]

Sigh....

There is this

An African Origin of Philosophy: Myth or Reality? | Dr. Molefi Kete Asante

If you choose to not read that in its length you can read

"Greek Philosophers Who Came to Africa to Study" by Adu-Asamoa, Barima - New African, Issue 477, October 2008 | Online Research Library: Questia

In beginning philosophy we learn about Greek thought but a lot of professors now are going back before popular Greek thought to Kemet Africa.

Poor scholarship which requires assertions and distortion to make an argument. You should have fact checked before posting.

 

[LuisDantas]

Thanks for your answers, @FearGod

They provide a good illustration of my point.

Which is to say, that the Qur'an suffers from and spreads a lot of serious confusion.

It takes as a given that there must be conflict between Muslims and non-Muslims; it dismisses the very necessary matter of establishing means to resolve conflict instead of perpetuating it; it seems to be entirely oblivious to the enormous differences between enemies of Islaam and simple refusers to adhere to it; and it is overall simply way too conflict-oriented for anyone's good.

I do not expect you (or the average Muslim) to agree with this analysis of mine, of course.

Logically, anyone who did agree would have a hard time justifying being a Muslim in the first place - except perhaps out of a desire to avoid direct confrontations with family and friends who might not be prepared to deal with non-Muslims up close, I guess.

 

[Notanumber]

It's in the next verse

And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.(2:192)

This thread is an example of fitna as described here - Fitna and the Kafir, Part One - Political Islam

 

[Kirran]

Are there several versions of the quran? according to my knowledge there is only one quran.

Well it was compiled in dubious circumstances, so while very useful it is still worth taking with a pinch of salt.

 

[FearGod]

Thanks for your answers, @FearGod

They provide a good illustration of my point.

Which is to say, that the Qur'an suffers from and spreads a lot of serious confusion.

It takes as a given that there must be conflict between Muslims and non-Muslims; it dismisses the very necessary matter of establishing means to resolve conflict instead of perpetuating it; it seems to be entirely oblivious to the enormous differences between enemies of Islaam and simple refusers to adhere to it; and it is overall simply way too conflict-oriented for anyone's good.

I do not expect you (or the average Muslim) to agree with this analysis of mine, of course.

Logically, anyone who did agree would have a hard time justifying being a Muslim in the first place - except perhaps out of a desire to avoid direct confrontations with family and friends who might not be prepared to deal with non-Muslims up close, I guess.

The quran pointed out that the solution is living in peace, aggression should be avoided by both
sides, but if in a case that peace doesn't work then the last thing to think about is fighting back.

 

[Cooky]

I see no evidence that Islam leads to decent societies. Feel free to point out modern examples of Muslim majority countries that are flourishing. And I suppose you might trot out "because Western interventions", which is a weak argument from many angles.

I would say Dubai..? But I can't because the place was designed specifically for millionaires, and does little to nothing it seems along the lines of charity for the poor and less fortunate.

...An absolutely materialistic, backwards society.

 

[LuisDantas]

The quran pointed out that the solution is living in peace, aggression should be avoided by both
sides, but if in a case that peace doesn't work then the last thing to think about is fighting back.

And that is certainly good advice.

I just don't think it is at all exclusive to the Qur'an, nor that the way in which the Qur'an exposes it is all that pure, clear or effective.

But sure, that is very much a good general direction to pursue. It is too bad that the failures to do so are so often so disastrous.

 

[FearGod]

This thread is an example of fitna as described here - Fitna and the Kafir, Part One - Political Islam

Fitna not explained well, let me explain the word by using the event of Muhammad's cartoons.

The one who made such cartoons wanted to make some Muslims to get angry, some groups
will push some Muslims to make violence, and that is Fitna.

Hope the meaning is clear to you.

 

[LuisDantas]

Fitna not explained well, let me explain the word by using the event of Muhammad's cartoons.

The one who made such cartoons wanted to make some Muslims to get angry, some groups
will push some Muslims to make violence, and that is Fitna.

Hope the meaning is clear to you.

That may well be a sincere analysis, but it is also unworkable if peaceful convivence is a goal.

 

[Cooky]

Fitna not explained well, let me explain the word by using the event of Muhammad's cartoons.

The one who made such cartoons wanted to make some Muslims to get angry, some groups
will push some Muslims to make violence, and that is Fitna.

Hope the meaning is clear to you.

Yes, like pope Francis says: If you make fun of my mom, expect me to punch you square in your ugly face... Or something along those lines.

 

[Notanumber]

At present, the West is living in Mecca but the real Political Islam will be revealed when it turns into Medina.

 

[England my lionheart]

Uthman recorded the official verses to avoid distortion and that was a great work.

Because not all qurans were the same, I think 7 dialects were used in different versions.
Its interesting that in one hadith (I'll look it up if I must) that one Muslim was prepared to strangle another because he recited a surah different to him but your prophet told him not to as its easier for him to recite, meaning I guess in his own dialect.

 

[FearGod]

Because not all qurans were the same, I think 7 dialects were used in different versions.
Its interesting that in one hadith (I'll look it up if I must) that one Muslim was prepared to strangle another because he recited a surah different to him but your prophet told him not to as its easier for him to recite, meaning I guess in his own dialect.

Strangle him for making mistakes in reading the quran, does making mistakes in reading the quran
require punishment?

What I can see today is one quran and it's the same verses that being told by the prophet.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Christian extremists have killed gays, hung Africans, and create Biker clubs that maim and kill. Extremist Jews have also taken lives both in the past and presently it’s just that the aforementioned two do not make the news often. People forget the media has its own biases.

The point was in regard to Christians killing over Christianity being insulted. Inn general, you are correct and you forgot to include abortion providers (and their staff) among the victims of Christian extremists.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Well, at Christian Forums they hate Catholics because we deviate from the bible. So I no longer consider myself a "Christian".

It's not at all unusual for Christian denominations to hate on each other. Overall, Christians are their own worst enemies.

 

[KT Shamim]

Thank you.

Now, if you do not mind, I have a few questions.

By your reading, what is meant by "disbelievers" in this verse?

What provision, if any, is there in the Qur'an to avoid the possibility of round after round of mutual accusations of Muslims accusing other people (some of which may well be Muslims, mind you) of having expelled their people "previously"?

What do you understand "fitnah" to mean in this verse? How and why would it be worse than killing?

Is the al-Masjid al- Haram mentioned here the well-known Mosque in Makkah?

[Qur'an 2:192] "And kill them wherever you meet them and drive them out from where they have driven you out; for persecution is worse than killing. And fight them not in, and near, the Sacred Mosque until they fight you therein. But if they fight you, then fight them: such is the requital for the disbelievers.

But people don't bother reading the verse the precedes it or the verse that follows? Why?

[Qur'an 2:191] "And fight in the cause of Allah against those who fight against you, but do not transgress. Surely, Allah loves not the transgressors."

[Qur'an 2:193] "But if they desist, then surely Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful."

 

[Shadow Wolf]

But people don't bother reading the verse the precedes it or the verse that follows? Why?

Many people get their information from sources that are blatantly and overtly biased against Islam, and if these sites included the full context then you can't scare the masses quite as easily. I forget the name of the main site they tend to use, but it gets cited here every so often in threads like this - something like "truth about Islam" or something like that is what the site is called.

 

[Cooky]

Many people get their information from sources that are blatantly and overtly biased against Islam, and if these sites included the full context then you can't scare the masses quite as easily. I forget the name of the main site they tend to use, but it gets cited here every so often in threads like this - something like "truth about Islam" or something like that is what the site is called.

I don't think anyone needs to scare the masses about Islam. We all see, with our own two eyes and hear with our own two ears what goes on. The abuses toward women, the fighting in the name of God.

...People quote verses from the Quran for answers as to where and why these religious fanatics do such awful things in this day and age.

We want to understand. We think we know -these are not mentally ill people... These are brainwashed people, and we need something to blame.