Why did Jesus need to die?

[McBell]

I think you will find we put most of the crap in the way. IMO

Based on what?
Based upon the Bible God set everything up, right?
Now if you are of the mind that God is all knowing then he set everything up the way he did already knowing that mere mortal man would fail.

Or perhaps you, like me do not believe that god is as all knowing?

 

[Politesse]

Where's heaven? In the Xian bible they always have the person "ascending" into the clouds like heaven is up in the stratosphere. Of course, we now know better, that "space" is not heaven. So where is heaven?

If you're asking me? Well, Jesus said, "If your religious leaders say to you, 'Look, the heavenly kingdom is in the sky!' then won't the birds get there first? If they say to you, 'It is in the depths!' then the fish will precede you likewise. But rather, I say that the Father's kingdom is within you and it is outside you."

Then again, I don't believe in an afterlife, so I may not be the best person to ask. I was merely responding to the odd assertion above that people were voluntarily damning themselves to an afterlife of torment, when God is presumably setting the rules, and most people, faced with the choice of cake or death, will generally opt for the cake.

 

[javajo]

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Cor. 5:21

 

[Falvlun]

He would not have needed to cut a path if he had not put all the crap in the way to begin with....

I think you will find we put most of the crap in the way. IMO

Sure, but it's God who decreed that we would be unable to clear it away ourselves. He could have set different rules that would have allowed us to fix the mess ourselves. Instead, he decided that one sin, no matter how small, would create an irreconcilable gulf between man and god.

 

[gzusfrk]

Sure, but it's God who decreed that we would be unable to clear it away ourselves. He could have set different rules that would have allowed us to fix the mess ourselves. Instead, he decided that one sin, no matter how small, would create an irreconcilable gulf between man and god.

Thats because sin, no matter how small can inter into a holy place, how were we to rid ourself of this sin?

 

[ninerbuff]

Thats because sin, no matter how small can inter into a holy place, how were we to rid ourself of this sin?

Lol, how about hit the Earth with an asteroid killing all of mankind except for a good couple then repopulate the Earth with sinless...........wait it's been done already and didn't work. This jesus dying thing hasn't worked either according to all the "bad" things that are going on now. Man this god is a failure at trying to convince people to be good.

 

[Falvlun]

Thats because sin, no matter how small can inter into a holy place, how were we to rid ourself of this sin?

By saying "I'm sorry".
By doing something nice to someone else.
By simply asking God for forgiveness.
By baking chocolate chip cookies.

Well, maybe not the last one, but dang, I'm sure that chocolate chip cookies add to the goodness in the world.

There are a myriad of ways that God could have chosen.

Heck, God didn't have to be so uptight in the first place. I mean, it's not rocket science to understand that if you make imperfect beings, they are going to be imperfect, so you better be ok with a little imperfection if you want to hang out with them.

 

[sotLG]

I will try and teach you what is written. In the beginning God spoke the worlds into existence.God said, Let there be light,--God said let ---- WHEN God speakes it happens. Jesus had to die to defeat death. he defeated death when he died and rose again at Calvary. You have to read what scriptures say to understand. Scripture says jesus is Gods word in a human form, God daid Adam would die if he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Adam did and death brought into world and could only be defeated if God sacrificed his word. Don t ask mre why He does - but God so loved his creation - man-- that he took all the pain of the cross, -- to die and rise up again-- so we will rise again and live forever. Jesus was a perfect sacrifice as he lived a life without sin. Hard to explain good writing without writing a book. ha ha If you can think of a chat forum to chat one on one I would be able to explain what the Christian faith teaches. first and formost is that Jesus is the word of God and no one gets to God un less its through jesus. We are saved by Gods grace through faith in Jesus and what he did for us. Died in our place. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------What I really don' t understand is why it seems if you mention Jesus people get upset or seem offended. If you read the words of jesus you will not find one thing hurtful in what he says,- A man asked Jesus once -" What is the greatest commandment."? Jesus said, There are two commandments that covers everything ,-- Love God and love people. ----- If you come up with any idea for I pray that answers of truth come you way and that your joy be full.
.

 

[Falvlun]

I will try and teach you what is written. In the beginning God spoke the worlds into existence.God said, Let there be light,--God said let ---- WHEN God speakes it happens. Jesus had to die to defeat death.

Let's just stop right there with those two colored statements. Really think about it for a bit.

Ok. Ready?

Whatever God says, will be. That is what you are claiming. So God could have simply said "You are forgiven", and we would have been forgiven. He could have picked any form of atonement possible. He chose death of an innocent being, namely himself. He did not have to pick that action.

Jesus = God, so Jesus did not have to do anything. He chose to sacrifice himself, because he chose that that would be the only acceptable form of atonement.

 

[Blackdog22]

From the Wiki article:

It's basically very similar: Jesus is the bridge between man and God. God could have created any bridge he wanted. He chose Jesus.
It also goes on to state that through his sacrifice,Jesus reversed the effects of sin (ie, whipping boy), and put the ability to be "like God" back in man's reach. So, we again have the idea that Jesus had to be sacrificed in order to bring man back to a condition acceptable to God. Once again, God could have chosen any mechanism he wanted: he chose to sacrifice his innocent son.

I would like to focus on this paragraph. Specifically the bolded part. To assume Jesus reversed the effects of sin we have to find out what the effects of sin were. Luckily for us Genesis spells out exactly what those effects were as follows:

• Snakes would be cursed to eat dirt forever.
• Man would return back to the earth and die.
• Woman would have pain in child birth.
• Man would have to work for his necessities.

Okay, those are a few of the effects of sin I want to focus on to make this simple. You claim: "Jesus reversed the effects of sin." I ask in what way? According to the Bible Jesus did nothing at all. Sure it says he reversed the effects of sin, but no Christian ever actually focuses on exactly what the effects of sin were. If they did they would easily recognize that there book is a hoax to put it quite bluntly.

• Did snakes suddenly stop eating dirt after Jesus died? No... They never ate dirt as far as we know.
• Did we suddenly stop dying after Jesus died for us? No we didn't.
• Do women still have pain in child birth? Id suggest stepping into any hospital on any given day to find out if this is true.
• Do men still work? Yes they have to..... Because of sin according to the Bible.

All of this still continues "because of sin" yet Christians continue to believe that our sins were taken care of by Jesus. Quite am amusing belief if you ask me, but never the less a belief that is easily refuted.

 

[Blackdog22]

Lol, how about hit the Earth with an asteroid killing all of mankind except for a good couple then repopulate the Earth with sinless...........wait it's been done already and didn't work. This jesus dying thing hasn't worked either according to all the "bad" things that are going on now. Man this god is a failure at trying to convince people to be good.

Not only that he is 2 for 2 on failed creations. His own angels turned against him and we ate an apple. He is 100% for failing.

 

[Blackdog22]

Thats because sin, no matter how small can inter into a holy place, how were we to rid ourself of this sin?

Okay lets think about this for a second. Is it a sin to look at a girl "wanting?" Yeah according to the Bible if you like girls your going to hell. Okay, cool. Now who made up the imaginary sin rule that liking girls is evil? Who made up the rules that if you look at a girl "wanting" then you can't go to heaven? Who made up the rules that if you lived in the OT you couldn't eat pork without getting backhanded out of heaven?

Ohhhhh yeah that's right God did according to your book.

So with these things in mind we can't enter heaven because God made it so just because. Yay? We are also born into sin because basically anything earthly is sinful. So God stuck us on the Earth and said anyone who lives there is evil and then said you have to do something to rid yourself of that.

These are all God my man. God is the problem.

 

[gzusfrk]

Okay lets think about this for a second. Is it a sin to look at a girl "wanting?" Yeah according to the Bible if you like girls your going to hell. Okay, cool. Now who made up the imaginary sin rule that liking girls is evil? Who made up the rules that if you look at a girl "wanting" then you can't go to heaven? Who made up the rules that if you lived in the OT you couldn't eat pork without getting backhanded out of heaven?

Ohhhhh yeah that's right God did according to your book.

So with these things in mind we can't enter heaven because God made it so just because. Yay? We are also born into sin because basically anything earthly is sinful. So God stuck us on the Earth and said anyone who lives there is evil and then said you have to do something to rid yourself of that.

These are all God my man. God is the problem.

It is a sin to lust after another woman. Liking girls is not a sin, it is not evil. If you are single, lusting after a woman may not be sinful for you ,the nt says better to marry than to burn with passion.The pork thing is old law,we are under new law, the nt says the kindgom of God is not about eating and drinking.

 

[logician]

The spilling of blood and sacrifice has played a role in religion for eons, Christianity carries on the ancient tradition.

Religion in many ways is a reflection of our early lack of knowledge and barbarism.

 

[Muffled]

Religion in many ways is a reflection of our early lack of knowledge and barbarism.

That is a specious invention of scientists who wish to anthropologize everything. Knowledge without wisdom can be detrimental. No doubt the atomic bomb was something that could be done because of increased knowledge but was it really a good idea to have it? Perhaps that is why Nobel so regretted his invention of explosives.

 

[Muffled]

Okay lets think about this for a second. Is it a sin to look at a girl "wanting?" Yeah according to the Bible if you like girls your going to hell. Okay, cool. Now who made up the imaginary sin rule that liking girls is evil? Who made up the rules that if you look at a girl "wanting" then you can't go to heaven? Who made up the rules that if you lived in the OT you couldn't eat pork without getting backhanded out of heaven?

Ohhhhh yeah that's right God did according to your book.

So with these things in mind we can't enter heaven because God made it so just because. Yay? We are also born into sin because basically anything earthly is sinful. So God stuck us on the Earth and said anyone who lives there is evil and then said you have to do something to rid yourself of that.

These are all God my man. God is the problem.

You are in error. God is saving by grace through Jesus. The rules are there to give you life. Break them at your own peril. God simply won't subtrovert your will. If the perfection of Heaven is not for you, He won't force you to go there. Howver He can bar you from physical life so that those who do wish perfection during physical life won't have sinners around to mess things up.

 

[Midnight Pete]

Why did Jesus need to die?

His agony and his death on the cross were necessary to redirect the full wrath of God away from the whole of mankind who deserve to be thrown into hell for our sins.

Think of it like this:

You are a criminal condemned to die by lethal injection at 3:10 am. At 3:08, they are strapping you onto the table and prepping the equipment. You are unequivocally guilty of comitting the horrible crimes with which you have been charged and yet you don't want to die. In your own mind, you don't deserve to die. At 3:09, there is a commotion in the execution chamber ....

... as someone struggles to get past prison personnel into the room. At this point, they have you strapped in and are ready to begin the execution. After some commotion, you feel the straps being unfastened. Why has this person disrupted your execution? You have no idea. Strong hands yank you off the gurney. In amazement, you watch as the unknown person wordlessly convinces the doctors and guards to strap him down in your place. You have no idea who he is, why he's here, or why any of this is happening. As the needle goes into his arm, he looks at you and smiles.

 

[Blackdog22]

His agony and his death on the cross were necessary to redirect the full wrath of God away from the whole of mankind who deserve to be thrown into hell for our sins.

Think of it like this:

You are a criminal condemned to die by lethal injection at 3:10 am. At 3:08, they are strapping you onto the table and prepping the equipment. You are unequivocally guilty of comitting the horrible crimes with which you have been charged and yet you don't want to die. In your own mind, you don't deserve to die. At 3:09, there is a commotion in the execution chamber ....

... as someone struggles to get past prison personnel into the room. At this point, they have you strapped in and are ready to begin the execution. After some commotion, you feel the straps being unfastened. Why has this person disrupted your execution? You have no idea. Strong hands yank you off the gurney. In amazement, you watch as the unknown person wordlessly convinces the doctors and guards to strap him down in your place. You have no idea who he is, why he's here, or why any of this is happening. As the needle goes into his arm, he looks at you and smiles.

So God demanded the torture of himself because he has a bad temper? Really?

 

[Blackdog22]

You are in error. God is saving by grace through Jesus. The rules are there to give you life. Break them at your own peril. God simply won't subtrovert your will. If the perfection of Heaven is not for you, He won't force you to go there. Howver He can bar you from physical life so that those who do wish perfection during physical life won't have sinners around to mess things up.

Okay, the rules are there to give you life? But isn't sin the breaking of the rules? Isn't sin why people go to Hell? So the rules actually damn us to hell. If you still want to believe the rules give people life I challenge you to go into a hospital, a Christian one even! You will see how full of life those sweet God fearing children who have cancer are. Or do you mean invisible life? In other words not life at all?

Oh and whether there is sinners or not. It has already been shown, by your own book, that a perfect creation of Angels fails. A second chance at attempting to make a perfect creation of humans fails. That is an 100% fail rate. If I was a gambling man, I would bet we may find a tree sitting up in heaven that no one can touch. There may even be a snake there and God may just wonder off from Heaven at the perfect time unknowingly(Yet being all knowing at the same time).

Yeah your definitely making sense.

 

[Midnight Pete]

So God demanded the torture of himself because he has a bad temper? Really?

I don't think you understood that little story of mine.