Why did the Israel's neighbors attack it in May 1948?

[icehorse]

Sorry but you can't win a debate by not participating.......

I'm not sure who you're addressing, but if you are addressing me, then you need to read my post more carefully. I AM participating, I am taking one claim at a time, and I'm taking it seriously. If you think that that's not participating, I can only guess that you're not really here to debate ideas and learn.

 

[Kapyong]

Gday all,

@Kapyong Of course I believe every human life has equal value - don't be a jerk. (I will say however that Hamas's leaders clearly don't hold the same values.)

Great
But you had to drop in an Excuse #2 But Hamas ! again.
Not to mention a personal insult too - because I had to ask you a question several times just to get you to answer ?
A question that goes to the heart of the issue - because I am sure you are well aware of the Jewish superiority taught in such books as the Tanya, a Jewish superiority that many Israelis believe, and even some of Netanyahu's cabinet apparently, and probably Medic Sgt Elor Azaria too it seems.

If you believe all lives have equal value, why haven't you said a word about Medic Azaria executing wounded al-Sharif ?
Why do you keep avoiding that issue?
Shall we proceed with discussion or will you remain stuck there ?

Firstly, you HAVE viewed the evidence, haven't you ?

Now please answer these questions :

• Do you support Medic Sgt Elor Azaria executing the wounded and helpless al-Sharif with a shot to the head ?
• Do you think Medic Azaria did it because he believed the life of al-Sharif was worth less than a Jewish life ?
• About how widespread is the belief in Jewish superiority amongst the Israeli people ?
• Is this belief common in the IDF ?
• Is it present in Netanyahu's extreme right-wing cabinet ?

These are not idle questions without merit - they go to the heart of the issue.

At the foundation of Holocaust 1.0 was the belief that the lives of the Germanic master-race were worth more than Jewish lives.

At the foundation of Holocaust 2.0 is the belief that the lives of Jews are worth more than Palestinian lives.

It's a serious problem.

You're claiming that land was stolen, correct? That's the claim I'm addressing. If you want to defend that claim, then answer my questions. If you don't then it would appear that you're making at least one claim with no evidence to back it up.
Remember, these are your claims, I'm under no obligation to address any of them. But I choose to address your claim about stolen lands.

That's chutzpah for you !
You've ignored nearly everything I have written and avoided almost every question posed.
But now you insist that I answer YOUR questions ? Without even making your point clear. You seem to think the British mandate or the UN PLAN (not mandate) of 1947 are important and relevant to your case without explaining why.

'Claiming' the land was stolen ?
Pardon ?

In fact -
History directly records that the land was stolen -
in April 1948 the land was Palestinian and occupied by Palestinians,
the Zionists fought the Palestinians and their Arab allies,
pushing out 700,000 Palestinian Arabs in ethnic cleansing;
eventually the Zionists beat the Arabs and took the land, renaming it 'Israel'.
By April 1949 the land was Israeli.

That's history, not claims :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab–Israeli_War

Consider this instructive map from wikipedia's article on the 1947-48 fighting (LuisDantas might appreciate this) :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947–48_Civil_War_in_Mandatory_Palestine
(Note that wikipedia is certainly not pro-Palestinian, it is clearly Zionist leaning.)

The pale blue areas were captured by the Zionists from December 1947 - 20th May 1948. That is the months BEFORE the declaration of war on 15th May 1948 (with a few days overlap.)

That land was taken by Zionists from the original Palestinian owners by force, against their will.
That is stealing.
Months BEFORE the Arabs declared war.
History, not claims.

Then, the Zionists captured much of Palestine by force and ethnic cleansing - the pale-green area shown here is the historical record of the land stolen by the Zionists during the war :

History, not claims.

Exodus of 700,000 Palestinians - details here :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus


So,
can you please explain your reasons for disagreeing with the historical record ?

I'm guessing it's based on Excuse #1 Not a State !
(Palestine was not a REAL state, so the land wasn't REALLY stolen, right ?)

There was no "official entity" of Palestine, so that made it OK for the Zionists to take the land and contents and resources from its owners, to destroy villages and burn down homes, to push out the local population of 700,000 by force and ethnic cleansing, and kill those who resisted - is that it ?


Or perhaps you are just saying it wasn't really stealing because the UN and/or Britain sanctioned it ?
(As if either of them had the right to give away Palestine.)

If the Arab League and Iran gave Scotland to China, would that be OK ?


I look forward to hearing why you disagree with history on this matter.


Kapyong

 

[icehorse]

@Kapyong

As a point of order here, I'm under no obligation to answer any of your questions. You're the one making claims in this exchange.

Now back to your claims, I believe that you're operating under a double standard here. The questions I'm asking you, I'm asking you because they get to the heart of the definitions you use in your claims.

As for individual episodes of brutality, I'm happy to grant you that both sides have perpetrated such barbarity.

 

[icehorse]

Do you subscribe to the religious aspect //''zionism'', /this type of zionism/, for the State of Israel? Or is all that just side stuff, that you ignore, etc?
Curious

I'm an anti-theist. I do my best to look at things reasonably, not from any faith position.

 

[Kapyong]

Gday icehorse and all,

@Kapyong
As a point of order here, I'm under no obligation to answer any of your questions. You're the one making claims in this exchange.
Now back to your claims, I believe that you're operating under a double standard here. The questions I'm asking you, I'm asking you because they get to the heart of the definitions you use in your claims.
As for individual episodes of brutality, I'm happy to grant you that both sides have perpetrated such barbarity.

'Definitions' ?

Excuse #1 Not a State !

Ah yes, you are indeed trying to make some excuse based of word definition games. As if that somehow justifies the ethnic cleansing of 700,000 Palestinians and the capture of Palestine by force.


'Both sides' ?

Excuse #2 But Hamas !

As if the atrocities of Hamas justify the even worse atrocities by Israel, as if there is some sort of equivalence.

It's complete nonsense, here is the facts showing how UNEQUAL the situation is :

• Israelis kill about seven times more Palestinians than Israelis are killed.
• Israelis wound about seven times more Palestinians than Israelis are wounded.
• Israelis kill about fifteen times more Palestinian children than Israeli children are killed.
• Israel has been named in 77 UN Resolutions. Palestine just one.
• Israel has imprisoned (and tortures) about 6,700 Palestinians. Palestinians have no imprisoned Israelis.
• Israel has kidnapped, imprisoned and even tortured about 400 Palestinians youngsters. Palestinians, none.
• Israelis have destroyed at least 28,000 Palestinians homes. Palestinians have destroyed no Israeli homes.
• Israelis occupy 261 illegal settlements on Palestinian land. Palestinians have no settlements on Israeli land.
• Israel receives over $3 billion (maybe $5 billion soon) in arms from the US each year. Palestine gets $0.
• Israel is an occupying power in total military control of all Palestinians. Palestinians are an occupied people with no control of their own lives.
• Israel has possibly the most advanced hi-tech army in the world. Palestinians have rocks, rifles, and some rockets which rarely kill.
• Israelis killed thousands of Palestinians (mostly civilians) 'mowing the grass' in Gaza 2014. Because Palestinians had killed three Israelis.
• Israel is a very powerful nation, having politically captured the US. Palestine is weak and down-trodden and denied to be a state.
• Israel is protected in the UN Security Council by the US. Palestine has only recently achieved even minor status in the UN.
• Israelis dominate the banking sector in the US, and are influential elsewhere. Not so the Palestinians.
• Israelis largely control the mainstream media in the West. Palestinians have no influence.
• Israel claims the land based on their ancient scriptures. But Israel took the land by force from the Palestinian's ancestors, the Canaanites - according to those same scriptures.
• Israel was only created in 1948, following the Zionist's arrival in the 1800s. Palestinians have been living there for many centuries.
• Israel has grown by gobbling up about 80% of Palestine since 1948. Palestine has lost that territory.
• Israel is erasing Palestine. Palestine is not erasing Israel.

Seriously icehorse, you won't address anything I say.
The questions I'm asking YOU go directly to the heart of the issue.
And your silence speaks volumes.

If you won't address any of my arguments or answer any of my questions, then I guess the discussion is over.
Everyone else has left town, being unable to refute the facts.


Kapyong

 

[icehorse]

If you won't address any of my arguments or answer any of my questions, then I guess the discussion is over.
Everyone else has left town, being unable to refute the facts.

You don't quite seem to have the hang of this debating thing... I AM attempting to address one of your central arguments. No gish galloping here, one claim at a time. As the claim maker, you don't get to dictate the order in which I address your claims.

So once again, I am addressing your claim that Israel stole land. Would you agree that that is one of your central claims?

And no, I'm not playing word games, I'm following the advice of Confucius and making sure that we're calling things by their correct names. Now if that doesn't sound reasonable to you, it might make people wonder what you're trying to conceal?

 

[Lyndon]

Its not a claim that Israel stole the land, its an established fact, you haven't presented any evidence to the contrary.

 

[Kapyong]

Gday Lyndon and all,

Its not a claim that Israel stole the land, its an established fact, you haven't presented any evidence to the contrary.

Indeed.
It's history.

But it appears that some people either don't know their history, or don't WANT to know.

Icehorse -
you simply ignored all the evidence, and repeatedly asserted that the land was NOT stolen after all - apparently based on some word definition games (which you won't clarify even when asked.) I accept all standard definitions of words, I have no idea what your point is, because you won't even tell us.

You refer to the British Mandate of 1923 - it was actually July 24, 1922.
The text is here :
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Palestine_Mandate.html
I don't see any relevant definitions there-in (the word 'definition' is not present) - will you please tell us what your point is ?

You also refer to the UN Mandate of 1948 - actually it was a plan promulgated 29 November, 1947.
The text is here :
http://www.un.org/en/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=A/RES/181(II)
Which parts do YOU agree with ?
Tell us what your point is please ?

Clearly -
You are doing the very OPPOSITE of discussing, and it is obvious to readers.
You repeatedly and conspicuously IGNORE the evidence I cite, then try to distract me into some word games.
You reject the actual evidence of recorded history as 'claims' - but won't say why you disagree with history.


The facts of history are clear -
The land WAS Palestine, Zionists wanted it, Arabs said No Way !
They fought a war over the land & 700,000 locals were ejected by force.
The Arabs lost, Zionists won and re-named the land 'Israel'.

That is the very epitome of stealing.
By what possible argument can one even PRETEND it's NOT stealing ?

I wonder if Icehorse will EVER tell us his argument for why it is not stealing.


Kapyong

 

[Kapyong]

Gday all,

No gish galloping here

Readers should note -

The 'Gish Gallop' is named after Duane Gish - who would speak quickly, jumping from one point to the next, not allowing the listener much time to evaluate each claim.

It's about timing when speaking.

So it has absolutely nothing to do with forum discussion at all, obviously.
Icehorse has had many DAYS to consider my arguments, and has simply ignored them.

But after ignoring all the evidence for many days, he now wants to start a distracting word-game.

Which apparently will explain how Palestine wasn't REALLY stolen after all.
That is - if he ever tells us what his point is.


Kapyong

 

[Kapyong]

Gday all

@Kapyong
As for individual episodes of brutality, I'm happy to grant you that both sides have perpetrated such barbarity.

Consider what that means, ladies and gentlemen of the audience -

Israel commits brutality and barbarity just like Hamas.
When it comes to human rights, Israel is just as bad as Hamas.
The excuse for Israeli atrocities is : "Hamas does it too !"

Thanks to icehorse for admitting that Israel is just as brutal and barbaric as Hamas.
We appear to be making progress.

Of course, when we consider the evidence, we find that Israel is actually much WORSE than Hamas :

Israel kidnaps youngsters in the middle of the night, imprisons them - and often tortures or sexually abuses them.

Israeli snipers murder Palestinian children for sport.

An Israeli medic 'treats' a wounded Palestinian with a shot to the head.

An Israeli bull-dozer even ran over an American citizen on camera (Rachel Corrie) and got away with her murder.

The Israeli terrorist who fire-bombed that Palestinian family to death just got off free.

Israel invaded Gaza in 2014 and massacred over two thousand Palestinians (mostly civilians) - in 'just self-defence' for THREE dead Israelis.

Israeli leaders call for all Palestinians to be executed.
"One thousand Arabs are not worth one Jewish fingernail."

Israel is committing a genocide upon Palestine.
Holocaust 2.0

Here are some more facts for icehorse to ignore :

Kapyong

 

[icehorse]

Its not a claim that Israel stole the land, its an established fact, you haven't presented any evidence to the contrary.

Once again,we're in the debate forum, this is a claim.

 

[icehorse]

So it has absolutely nothing to do with forum discussion at all, obviously.
Icehorse has had many DAYS to consider my arguments, and has simply ignored them.

No, I have for many days been trying to address them one at a time, and you have not responded to my requests for you to answer simple questions pertinent to your claims.

And note, the once again, post 191 is another gish gallop.

Kapyong, I sense we're not going to make any progress here. You want us to accept your claims, and many of us simply do not.

 

[Lyndon]

Once again,we're in the debate forum, this is a claim.

No it is not a claim, it is a fact that Israel stole the land, that or the Arabs gave it to them, is that you ridiculous contention.

 

[rosends]

No it is not a claim, it is a fact that Israel stole the land, that or the Arabs gave it to them, is that you ridiculous contention.

It is actually a claim. It is a claim that requires one define certain terms in order to be defended. And it is a claim that flies in the face of other claims which are supported by historical statements ( http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFmandate.html#5 and http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFpartition.html#3 ). Before you assail the website, check the footnotes.
Because your statement is challenged by other statements, your statement is simply a claim which needs to be substantiated. It cannot be deemed a "fact" in a vacuum.

 

[Lyndon]

Your sources are suspect, its in the nature of thieves that they practically never admit stealing anything. This situation is no different.

 

[icehorse]

Your sources are suspect, its in the nature of thieves that they practically never admit stealing anything. This situation is no different.

Name one human being who isn't living on "stolen" land.

 

[Flankerl]

Your sources are suspect, its in the nature of thieves that they practically never admit stealing anything. This situation is no different.

Funny how you mention that. Just read about it.

http://www.grimmstories.com/language.php?grimm=110&l=en&r=de

 

[atanu]

I realize that there were strong tensions and lots of insurgence in the region at those times.
But still... what did they see as justification for waging war against Israel just like that?
What is the current perspective of Arabs and Muslims on the matter? Particularly those who disapprove of the existence of Israel?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab–Israeli_War
Edited to add: far as I have learned, tensions were very high and unhappiness with the British policies of the last few decades was widespread among all of the people in the Middle East.
Still, what did motivate Iraq, Egypt, Jordan and Syria to basically attack Israel without provocation? Or did they see some justification that somehow I never learned of?
How do Arabs and Muslims think of those conflicts these days? Are they seem as a mistake? Or are they unsatisfied for not having been victorious only?

1908 -- Middle East oil discovered -- there will be blood.

http://www.wired.com/2008/05/dayintech-0526/

 

[Kapyong]

Gday all,

It is actually a claim. It is a claim that requires one define certain terms in order to be defended.

See?
Word-games about definitions.

That somehow make it OK for the land to be taken by force,
and 700,000 people forced out in ethnic cleansing.

History records that the Zionists took Palestine by force.
No word game will over-ride history.

Israel has no concern at all for human rights, for justice for the people whose land they stole.
"Kill them all" is the Israeli cry !

No justice for al-Sharif, murdered by an Israeli medic.
Nor the Palestinian children kidnapped at night then imprisoned and tortured and sexually assaulted.

What word-games make that OK, rosends ?


History will be very harsh on those who committed and supported Holocaust 2.0.


Kapyong

 

[Kapyong]

Gday icehorse and all,

Name one human being who isn't living on "stolen" land.

So now you finally ADMIT the land was stolen !
Why did that take so long ?

So now you excuse the stealing of Palestine - because other lands have been stolen in history too !
I thought we gave up that silly excuse in the schoolyard.
Palestine was stolen in living memory, not in history.

So why isn't it OK for the Palestinians to take back their stolen land ?

In fact when Hamas even WANTS the invader Israel gone from their home-land - that's an excuse to take yet more land and kill yet more Palestinians.


Kapyong