Why did the Israel's neighbors attack it in May 1948?

[icehorse]

Re: Ottoman disbanding

About 100 years ago some Europeans who won WW I sat down and carved up the Ottoman empire. (I'm leaving out details on purpose.) During the first half of the century, a whole bunch of new "countries" were created: Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Israel and so on. In that carving up process Israel represents a tiny percentage of the land in play. Lots of traditional peoples, as legit as the "Palestinians" got the short end of the land grab stick. The Kurds for example didn't get a homeland.

When people look at historical evidence of "Palestinians", they lived in areas far broader than what is now Israel. For example, many of them usually lived in western Jordan. All of this leads to the following:

In all of this artificial carving up of land and making countries up out of thin air, why is it that people seem ONLY to get upset when if comes to a few tiny chunks of disputed territory around Israel? What about the Kurds? The Yazidies? And so on... What about having Jordan donate a bit of land to help their Arab Palestinian brothers establish a homeland?

The answer seems obvious to me.

 

[Nietzsche]

In all of this artificial carving up of land and making countries up out of thin air, why is it that people seem ONLY to get upset when if comes to a few tiny chunks of disputed territory around Israel? What about the Kurds? The Yazidies? And so on... What about having Jordan donate a bit of land to help their Arab Palestinian brothers establish a homeland?

The Kurds didn't have an influx of foreigners to displace them.

 

[Kapyong]

Gday Luis and all

Why ?

Because after the Zionists had bought land in the area for some decades,
Israel unilaterally declared themselves a state on the very day that the British Mandate ran out - 14 May 1948 (5 Iyar 5708).

Thus effectively stealing a large chunk of Palestine for themselves.

The new state of Israel then used terror attacks by Irgun etc. and ethnic cleansing to depopulate the local Palestinians - eventually leaving about two thousand dead Palestinian fighters, almost four thousand dead Arab fighters, and over ten thousand dead Palestinian civilians.

According to Benny Morris, Jewish forces were responsible for 24 massacres during the war.[1] Aryeh Yizthaki attests to 10 major massacres with more than 50 victims each.[6] Palestinian researcher Salman Abu-Sitta records 33, half of them occurring during the civil war period.[6] Saleh Abdel Jawad has listed 68 villages where acts of indiscriminate killing of prisoners, and civilians took place, where no threat was posed to Yishuv or Israeli soldiers.[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killi..._war#cite_note-Zionist_Massacres_pp._59-127-7
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killings_and_massacres_during_the_1948_Palestine_war

That's why.


Kapyong

 

[Kapyong]

Gday LuisDantas and all

Still, what did motivate Iraq, Egypt, Jordan and Syria to basically attack Israel without provocation? Or did they see some justification that somehow I never learned of?

Well, imagine if you will Luis, that something like this happened :

Many Shiite Iranians started moving to Brasil, buying many land and houses over many years.

(Because of their widespread fervent religious belief in an ancient book allegedly written by the great Darius himself, in which he records the god Ahura Mazda granting the land of BRZL unto the Iranians - as their future reward for being good Persians.)

Everyone agrees that the land of Brasil belongs to Iran - at least everyone on the Arab League - all the Arabs and Muslims and Iranians.
Brasilians and their allies are outraged of course, but the Iranians get all the good press.
Tensions rise.

Suddenly, Iran declares a new state called the 'Shiite Theocracy of Pardis'.
Pardis includes most of Brasil, including most of Rio, and of course the Jesus statue.
Fighting breaks out all over.

The Shiite army of Pardis forcibly eject most of the local Brasilians - killing thousands, including many civilians, and commit many massacres and atrocities - ethnic cleansing of their new land.

About four-fifths of the local Brasilians are pushed out into surrounding areas and allied neighbouring nations, where they relate horrifying tales of massacres of innocent Brasilian civilians, with Iranians being ordered to "kill all adult male Brasilians, and burn everything you can".

Venezuela, Ecuador, Columbia, Paraguay, Peru etc. absorb the refugees, and then join under arms to fight back against this invading Iranian nation of Pardis which has stolen much of Brasil and massacred many Brasilians.


In that case Luis, would you ask -

" Still, what did motivate Venezuela, Ecuador, Columbia, Paraguay, Peru to basically attack Pardis without provocation? "


Kapyong

 

[icehorse]

The Kurds didn't have an influx of foreigners to displace them.

Is the implication you're making that this was the only known modern instance of one ME tribe displacing another?

 

[icehorse]

Gday LuisDantas and all

Well, imagine if you will Luis, that something like this happened :

Many Shiite Iranians started moving to Brasil, buying many land and houses over many years.

(Because of their widespread fervent religious belief in an ancient book allegedly written by the great Darius himself, in which he records the god Ahura Mazda granting the land of BRZL unto the Iranians - as their future reward for being good Persians.)

Everyone agrees that the land of Brasil belongs to Iran - at least everyone on the Arab League - all the Arabs and Muslims and Iranians.
Brasilians and their allies are outraged of course, but the Iranians get all the good press.
Tensions rise.

Suddenly, Iran declares a new state called the 'Shiite Theocracy of Pardis'.
Pardis includes most of Brasil, including most of Rio, and of course the Jesus statue.
Fighting breaks out all over.

The Shiite army of Pardis forcibly eject most of the local Brasilians - killing thousands, including many civilians, and commit many massacres and atrocities - ethnic cleansing of their new land.

About four-fifths of the local Brasilians are pushed out into surrounding areas and allied neighbouring nations, where they relate horrifying tales of massacres of innocent Brasilian civilians, with Iranians being ordered to "kill all adult male Brasilians, and burn everything you can".

Venezuela, Ecuador, Columbia, Paraguay, Peru etc. absorb the refugees, and then join under arms to fight back against this invading Iranian nation of Pardis which has stolen much of Brasil and massacred many Brasilians.

In that case Luis, would you ask -

" Still, what did motivate Venezuela, Ecuador, Columbia, Paraguay, Peru to basically attack Pardis without provocation? "

Kapyong

Nicely spun, but spin it still is.

 

[Kapyong]

Gday all,

Well, icehorse, my example was a close as I could make it to what actually happened in Palestine.

Zionist Israel invaded and stole a chunk of Palestine by trickery and terrorism.
That's what history shows.

Since then Israel has erased and gobbled up about 80% of Palestine :

This is the map that Israel does not want people to see.
They successfully had it censored from a McGraw-Hill textbook recently.

It's obvious why - they don't want the world to realise they are erasing and gobbling up Palestine until it's too late.
It almost IS too late !

So,
if and when Israel has completely erased Palestine and it exists no more, should we use the word 'genocide' ? Although some Palestinians will still be left alive for a while in refugee camps, if there is no Palestine left - what word is best ?

A new word like 'Erasure' maybe ? The Israeli Erasure of Palestine has a nice ring to it.

Or perhaps just use a well-known word - 'holocaust' - the Palestinian Holocaust, or Holocaust 2.0.

After WW2 :
Remember the Holocaust !
Never let it happen again !

After Palestine :
Remember the Holocausts !
Never let it happen a third time !


Kapyong

 

[Nietzsche]

Is the implication you're making that this was the only known modern instance of one ME tribe displacing another?

This was not a ME tribe displacing another. They were Europeans who happened to be Jewish. I understand completely them wanting to get out of Europe. But I don't think territorial claims are valid after the first couple of millennia. If you consider that valid, I'd like to discuss how you feel about returning former Germany east of the Oder, because at the very least there are still people alive who were born there.

 

[Kapyong]

Gday all,

Not if the territory was bought piece by piece along several decades from the people that lived or owned it previously. Far as I know, that is how it happened.

Ah no, that's not what actually happened.

Consider the map I posted up thread -

In the left panel (1946) the white areas are the Jewish land that had been legally purchased - quite a small area.

But in the third panel (1948-1967) the white area is the state of Israel created unilaterally, and ethnically cleansed by force - a very much larger area.

See the problem ?


Kapyong

 

[LuisDantas]

The answer seems obvious to me.

Does it? I have yet to read the posts following this, but I don't think there is a clear answer at all.

Nations are always artificial by their very nature, but from where I stand it seems to me that it is dangerous to assume that there are clear purposes, let alone united ones, in any of those territories.

 

[LuisDantas]

Hi, Kapyong.

Because after the Zionists had bought land in the area for some decades,

Isn't that a reason not to attack them?

Israel unilaterally declared themselves a state on the very day that the British Mandate ran out - 14 May 1948 (5 Iyar 5708).

Any reason why they should not have done that?

Also, what is meant by unilaterality there? How is an unilateral declaration of being a state any different from a non-unilateral one?

Thus effectively stealing a large chunk of Palestine for themselves.

I thought you said they bought it?

The new state of Israel then used terror attacks by Irgun etc. and ethnic cleansing to depopulate the local Palestinians - eventually leaving about two thousand dead Palestinian fighters, almost four thousand dead Arab fighters, and over ten thousand dead Palestinian civilians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killings_and_massacres_during_the_1948_Palestine_war

I guess that is possible. But I fear I just can't trust that claim just yet, quite like that.

 

[LuisDantas]

Gday LuisDantas and all



Well, imagine if you will Luis, that something like this happened :

Many Shiite Iranians started moving to Brasil, buying many land and houses over many years.

(Because of their widespread fervent religious belief in an ancient book allegedly written by the great Darius himself, in which he records the god Ahura Mazda granting the land of BRZL unto the Iranians - as their future reward for being good Persians.)

That is pretty much what did happen in real history, except that it was Catholic Portuguese instead of ****e Iranians.

Everyone agrees that the land of Brasil belongs to Iran - at least everyone on the Arab League - all the Arabs and Muslims and Iranians.
Brasilians and their allies are outraged of course, but the Iranians get all the good press.

Uh... why would they be outraged?

I take it that we are dealing with the inherent contradiction of taking both of the appealling yet ultimately clashing and fictional ideas of "united, sovereign nation" and "owning land" too seriously at the same time?

That is certainly a nasty thing when it happens. We all should strive to avoid allowing that to ever happen.

Tensions rise.

Suddenly, Iran declares a new state called the 'Shiite Theocracy of Pardis'.
Pardis includes most of Brasil, including most of Rio, and of course the Jesus statue.

If they acquired all that land by buying it or as conquests from getting the upper hand after being invaded by Braziliains, I guess we will have to accept that.

Fighting breaks out all over.

The Shiite army of Pardis forcibly eject most of the local Brasilians - killing thousands, including many civilians, and commit many massacres and atrocities - ethnic cleansing of their new land.

About four-fifths of the local Brasilians are pushed out into surrounding areas and allied neighbouring nations, where they relate horrifying tales of massacres of innocent Brasilian civilians, with Iranians being ordered to "kill all adult male Brasilians, and burn everything you can".

Okay, I have little idea of what you are trying to parallel here. I assume it is an accusation of something presumably done by Israel at some time during 1947-1948, as you suggested previously?

Venezuela, Ecuador, Columbia, Paraguay, Peru etc. absorb the refugees, and then join under arms to fight back against this invading Iranian nation of Pardis which has stolen much of Brasil and massacred many Brasilians.

Again, I have a hard time attempting to follow this. I thought the land was bought or else spoils after winning a military invasion?

What makes that land stolen in any meaningful sense?

In that case Luis, would you ask -

" Still, what did motivate Venezuela, Ecuador, Columbia, Paraguay, Peru to basically attack Pardis without provocation? "

Yes, that is indeed a good question, going by what I can figure out of your hypothetical scenario.

 

[icehorse]

Kapyong,

Explain what you think is true about the 1946 version of the map you posted and then what you think is true about the 1947 map. I can't quite tell what you think those two maps demonstrate?

 

[LuisDantas]

But in the third panel (1948-1967) the white area is the state of Israel created unilaterally, and ethnically cleansed by force - a very much larger area.

See the problem ?

Far as I can tell, the problem is that people grow much too fond of some very questionable notions such as land being somehow property of people and arbitrary classifications of people as different nationalities or somesuch and end up finding those sufficient reason for all kinds of violence.

I guess being a Brazilian may factor into it. Nearly all Brazilians have little choice but to accept that we are the descendants of the slayers of the natives. It is entirely absurd for me to even attempt to think of land and people as having any meaningful link.

I am left scratching my head attempting to figure why you are so outraged exactly. It is clear that Israel has gained territory and that the Palestinians are outraged by that. The reasons are entirely unclear to me.

 

[Kapalika]

I take it you don't think of that disbanding as an unavoidable fact, then?

From what I hear, the Empire was very much falling under its own weight already.

It is ugly that Europe was politically immature at the time to the point of insisting on devouring its own entrails, but I don't think there is any good reason to feel nostalgic for the Ottoman Empire either.



That is very much true, as shown for instance in Iraq.

It also misses the IMO very important point that it is ultimately the people's choice whether to conform to the expectations of "foreigners" or to seek other arrangements.

The British (and French) can only be blamed for the issues to a certain extent. The people actually living there should accept some responsibility for, at the very least, failing to attain good mutual understandings of their own volition.


Except that this premise is doubtful at best. Are people to be forced into respecting each other? Do you think that makes sense?

And if it does, aren't you then claiming that the British were not nearly imperialistic enough for the good of the Ottoman Empire? That looks a lot like the ideology of White Man's Burden that is so deservedly despised these days.



I just don't know what you are proposing as a realistic alternative. Hoping that somehow the Empire would find its way out of its decadence, perhaps?

You're misrepresenting my argument; I was only speaking of previously established Empires being broken up in a way that doesn't reflect their geopolitical realities. Actually ones like the Roman and Greek Empires come to mind not ones like the British Empire that was mostly just unrelated colonies.

Edit: I'm trying to say that I wasn't arguing for the creation of Empires, just not the arbitrary splitting up of boarders when one is broken up. But I don't know if that matters now as I don't think there are really any proper Empires left.

 

[Kapyong]

Gday LuisDantas and all

I am left scratching my head attempting to figure why you are so outraged exactly. It is clear that Israel has gained territory and that the Palestinians are outraged by that. The reasons are entirely unclear to me.

Pardon ?
They just 'gained territory ' ?
Like how Japan merely 'gained territory ' in Manchuria ?
Like how the Nazis 'gained ' France ?
Or perhaps like Portugal and Castille 'gained ' half each of Brazil ?

In fact -
they slowly bought a small amount of strategic land, and then used that as a spring-board to declare themselves owners of a much larger area, outraging the locals who had actually owned the land for many centuries, then forcibly took all that land by military force and terrorism, by ethnic cleansing and outright massacres, even civilians.

While claiming the land is really theirs because of ancient religious tales.

All these years later Palestine is 80% gone, and the Palestinians are still being massacred and murdered and tortured - e.g. over two THOUSAND killed (mostly civilians) during the last Israeli 'mowing the grass' (their chilling term) when they invaded the Gaza ghetto in 2014 with the most advanced army in the world, calling it 'just retaliation' and 'self-defence' as usual - retaliation for THREE Israelis killed (!)

It's so bad now that an Israeli army sargeant, a MEDIC even, Sgt Elor Azaria, can shoot a wounded Palestinian man Abed al-Fatah al-Sharif lying helpless on the ground (left bleeding to death while they helped the Israelis) - shot did him dead, in the head, on camera, for no reason. (Then kicked a knife near him as a later excuse.)

About 80% of Israelis support Azaria, because he was just 'doing his job', and a 'soldier is not a murderer '. A mass rally in Israel to defend him heard he was so 'moral' and 'always willing to help any human being '. Details here :
http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/w...kick-knife-body-man-executed-hebron-741769992

Such horrific atrocities are not at all uncommon - snipers even shoot Palestinian kids for sport.

Seriously, LuisDantas, you seem entirely reasonable and intelligent, but I do not think you are yet fully informed about the realities of Palestine.

The mainstream media is totally biased in favour of Israel who are always the 'good guys', and it has been like this since 1948 at least. The endless guilt of Holocaustianity has protected them for decades, even allowing them to attack the USS Liberty and get away with it.

If Iran invaded Brazil and stole it to make their Pardis, I would be on your side Luis, and yes, I would be outraged.

Israel invaded and stole Palestine, massacred Palestinians, and have almost finished erasing and gobbling it up.
Yes, I am outraged, and rightly so I believe.

But more than that, I feel a duty to inform and explain as widely as I can, and I'll repeat why :

After WW2 :
Remember the Holocaust !
Never let it happen again !

After Palestine :
Remember the Holocausts !
Never let it happen a third time !


Kapyong

 

[Kapyong]

Gday icehorse and all

Kapyong,
Explain what you think is true about the 1946 version of the map you posted and then what you think is true about the 1947 map. I can't quite tell what you think those two maps demonstrate?

Sure

The first map (1946) shows Jewish owned areas in white - a very small collection of connected areas.

The THIRD map (1948-67) shows in white the area Israel unilaterally declared their own and took by force and ethnic cleansing - a very large piece of Palestine.

Maybe 5% of the State of Israel was legally acquired land, the other 95% was taken by force from the Palestinians.


Kapyong

 

[LuisDantas]

You're misrepresenting my argument; I was only speaking of previously established Empires being broken up in a way that doesn't reflect their geopolitical realities. Actually ones like the Roman and Greek Empires come to mind not ones like the British Empire that was mostly just unrelated colonies.

Edit: I'm trying to say that I wasn't arguing for the creation of Empires, just not the arbitrary splitting up of boarders when one is broken up. But I don't know if that matters now as I don't think there are really any proper Empires left.

Fair enough. "What if" questions tend to make me wonder which of various possible alternative scenarios is being proposed.

Events such as the fall of a whole Empire happen neither just because nor without consequences.

 

[LuisDantas]

(...)
Maybe 5% of the State of Israel was legally acquired land, the other 95% was taken by force from the Palestinians.

Much of it by succesfully repealing an invasion by Iraqian, Syrian, Egyptian and Jordanian forces just hours after their inauguration.

You can't possibly expect me to automatically take sides against Israel once I am aware of that.

 

[LuisDantas]

If Iran invaded Brazil and stole it to make their Pardis, I would be on your side Luis, and yes, I would be outraged.

I don't even know whether I would have any side in such a situation.

I am proud of how little I care about nationalities - and as it turns out, also for how hopeful I am that Brazil will not survive as such for too much longer. I fully intend to vote for its partition next October.

Israel invaded and stole Palestine, massacred Palestinians, and have almost finished erasing and gobbling it up.
Yes, I am outraged, and rightly so I believe.

That may well be. But I have little in the way of evidence, and lots of reasons to be careful there.