• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why did the Israel's neighbors attack it in May 1948?

Kapalika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I want to say that as an outside observer I tend to only see Americans and Jews defend Israel in this situation.

But either way you cut it, putting all the Jews there and making Israel was a mistake. Surely everyone sees that just by the fact that it caused so many wars and yes many many people were displaced and evicted.

I don't know what truth there is to ethnic cleansing but I do know that the Israels from time to time due commit war crimes against people in the Gaza Strip. I even know of Israelis who get in lawn chairs and watch the bombings like it's some social gathering. It's kind of sick in my opinion.

It seems that the only real solution is to give what natives are left some state of their own. Maybe even Israel give up places like the Gaza Strip and other locations that are highly contested. Surely it can't be worth the bloodbath.

I don't really care about arguments about might making right here. I don't believe that can be justification here and while Israel may not be totally evil I don't like that everyone is always giving them free passes for the human right violations they *do* commit.

In my mind, the only other solution might be to give the Palestinians some kind of real representation within the Israeli government. But I don't know enough of the situation to really know how that might pan out. I don't consider myself terribly educated on the entire situation but it's been very apparent to me over the years that the Palestinians have been greatly wronged in many ways and that Americans and Israelis always excuse this or try to minimize the impact because of their own religious and political bias and don't want to find some kind of solution.

Unfortunately this is expounded by those on the Palestinian side who have become violent over the decades of this stuff and those on the American/Israeli side use that as justification for dismissing the harm done to them.
 

Kapyong

Disgusted
Gday icehorse and all :)

Hey Kapyong,
Are you equally concerned about other groups in the region who don't have a homeland? Can you name another country created after WW I whose boundaries adhere to traditional boundaries? Can you even create such a map?

Excuse 4 : Look, over there ! A distraction !

Please don't de-rail the thread with distractions.
Of course it is possible to be concerned about more than one issue at a time, and I DO speak out about many issues.
But THIS thread is about Israel and Palestine.

The map of "Palestine" that was created by Europeans 100 years ago was just that, a creation.

Excuse 1 : But Palestine is not a state !

I note you put "Palestine" in quotes, suggesting it's not REALLY Palestine at all. Even though it has a name, history, borders, people and towns, culture, and a govt recognised by most world govts, which issues passports. Is "Palestine" not REALLY Palestine just because some powerful countries DENY it statehood ?

Anyway -
Palestine was certainly NOT created merely 100 years ago at all - as the map I posted up thread clearly showed (perhaps you accidentally missed it?) Ptolemy's influential maps from around the time of the Gospels clearly show Palestine by name, with borders (including Gaza town.)

Furthermore, Palestine was mentioned by name by ancient writers such as Ovid, Philo, Josephus, Pliny, Plutarch and many more.

If your argument is that "Palestinians" ought to have a homeland based on their history, then you need to also grant them a good sized chunk out of western Jordan. (Oh, and BTW, where the heck did Jordan come from?)

Jordan was an Arabic friend, Jordan is still an Arabic friend.
But Israel was an enemy invader who took land by force and ethnic cleansing.

The point here is that you are basing your argument on an arbitrary time slice, and an arbitrarily constrained view of geography.

Not at all.
Israel stole Palestine in living memory - some of the Palestinians forced from their homes (under threat of death) are still alive and still have their keys to the homes they abandoned (temporarily) 2/3s a century ago.

And this happened (just) AFTER WW2 - in the new era.
While the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal judged the Nazis, leading to this famous quote from Judge Birkett :
" To initiate a war of aggression, therefore, is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole. "

Israel did exactly that, just then - initiated a war of aggression to take the land of Palestine by force.

The Israeli Erasure of Palestine continues under our noses, largely because the Israelis dominate the US (and the UN), and also because they dominate the media.

I too was generally a supporter of Israel, like most, until I started to look into the facts for myself, and found the results to be shockingly different than the myths presented on our screens in those endless movies and shows and docos in which Israelis are always the good guys, and the Palestinians always 'terrorists'.

Please Luis, and all readers -
don't take my word for it,
don't believe the propaganda either;
please research carefully for yourselves.

Consider both views of course - listen to the Palestinian version AS WELL as the Israeli version, along with any neutral sources you can find.


Kapyong
 

Kapyong

Disgusted
Here's a quick thought about Statehood :

Israel unilaterally declared most of Palestine to now be the State of Israel and stole the land by force, ethnically cleansing the local Palestinians out.
Apparently that makes them a REAL state.

But Palestine, who have been there for many centuries - with a history, borders, people and towns, culture, and a govt etc.
are NOT a REAL state - simply because Israel denies it !

Freedom is Slavery !
War is Peace !
Ignorance is Strength !



Kapyong
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Ah, word-games about what 'Palestinian' really means.
Which really boils down to showing Palestine was not formally a State.
The only one playing deceitful word games here is you.

From Wikipedia:

Before the establishment of Israel, the meaning of the word Palestinian didn't discriminate on ethnic grounds, but rather referred to anything associated with the region, which in the Mandate for Palestine definition briefly included the area which today is Jordan. Until the creation of the state of Jordan (then called Transjordan after the Jordan River) in 1922, pursuant to the Faisal-Weizmann Agreement, the area broadly to the west of the Jordan River was designated for Jewish Palestine and the area west of the Jordan River for Arab Palestine.

The local newspaper, founded in 1932 by Gershon Agron, was called The Palestine Post. In 1950, its name was changed to The Jerusalem Post. In 1923, Pinhas Rutenberg founded the Palestine Electric Company, Ltd. (later to become the Israel Electric Corporation, Ltd.). There was a Jewish Palestine Symphony Orchestra, and in World War II, the British assembled a Jewish Brigade, to fight the Axis powers, that was known as the Palestine regiment. [ibid]​

Pre-48, a Palestinian was anyone living in the area designated Palestine, irrespective of that person's ethnicity or religion.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
My reading of wikipedia on Israel is it is distinctly biased towards the Israeli position as opposed to the Palestinian one.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
My view is that the "Palestinians" have had such horrid leaders that it is little wonder that things are as crazy over there as they are. The election of Hamas (in Gaza) was farking brilliant. Yep, those folks wanted a peaceful solution...
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
I think you need to go back and check on what a Bodhisattva is before claiming to be one.
 

Kapyong

Disgusted
Gday Jayhawker Soule and all :)

<snip>
Pre-48, a Palestinian was anyone living in the area designated Palestine, irrespective of that person's ethnicity or religion.

OK.
So what ?
Does that somehow justify Israel declaring themselves the new owners of most of Palestine, and then taking it by force from the local population ?

Is to somehow OK to ethnically cleanse an area of all Arab Palestinians, just because some Palestinians are Jewish or other faiths or groups ?
Or what, exactly ?

What is the relevance of games about the word 'Palestinian' to the way the new State of Israel took most of Palestine from the locals ?

I really don't want to argue about words at all, just the facts please. :)


Kapyong
 

Kapyong

Disgusted
Gday again :)

I have made a new map showing more clearly the land that Israel took from Palestine from May 1948 through March 1949 :

PalestineRegions.jpg

All readers are free to copy and use this diagram. The source was a politician seeking to publicise these maps, so there is no copyright issue.

In later years, when the grand-kids ask -
Do you remember Palestine, Grand-pa ?
What did you do to stop Holocaust 2.0 ?

What will your answer be ?


Kapyong
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Gday LuisDantas :)



Well, me too Luis :) I think of myself as a world citizen first and foremost. I knew I would like you :)
It's not all about nationalities - it's about a strong people gobbling up a weak country by force.
It's about an entire country being erased, the people killed, the homes destroyed.
If Iran did that to Brazil, of COURSE you would resist.



Well, I would suggest studying up on the evidence. :)
With respect, I think you have swallowed Israeli propaganda without realising.
Wasn't that map I posted evidence for the erasing of Palestine ?


Kapyong
Nope. In fact, I can barely see any meaning on your claims.

You will need to do a lot better before I begin to consider your tale.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Please don't de-rail the thread with distractions.
Of course it is possible to be concerned about more than one issue at a time, and I DO speak out about many issues.
But THIS thread is about Israel and Palestine.

I don't consider Jordan and the rest of the ME to be distractions, I believe them to be necessary to establish the appropriate context. Again, it strikes me that your arguments are based on arbitrarily limiting the context of the situation. It's clear from your posts that you understand that the proper context is essential for such a discussion, correct?

So we disagree about what context is appropriate. Let me ask you this, why shouldn't a modern Palestine include parts of Jordan and Egypt, both of which are areas that your "Palestinians" traditionally lived in?

Now to be clear, if your argument was that the Europeans who took it upon themselves to carve up the ME, did a horrendously horrible job, you'd have no argument from me. But it appears that you're focused only on this one element of that horrible series of events.
 

Kapalika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Actually I'm not even sure anymore who's right. I kind of give up trying to figure out what really happened it just looks like the situation was handled really badly and I have heard of and read about a lot of people forcibly displaced over the years.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
While it is natural to want to avoid bad situations, this is a good example of why we should not.
 

Kapyong

Disgusted
Gday LuisDantas :)

Nope. In fact, I can barely see any meaning on your claims.
You will need to do a lot better before I begin to consider your tale.

Oh :(
You haven't even begun to consider my 'tale' yet ?

I was hoping you would study the historical evidence, considering you have shown so little knowledge of it.


Kapyong
 

Kapyong

Disgusted
Gday icehorse and all :)

So we disagree about what context is appropriate. Let me ask you this, why shouldn't a modern Palestine include parts of Jordan and Egypt, both of which are areas that your "Palestinians" traditionally lived in?

Why shouldn't it ?
I don't disagree with that at all.

Let me ask you this, why shouldn't a modern Palestine include the parts of PALESTINE that were stolen by Israel ?

This thread asks why Israel's Arab neighbours attacked it in 1948.
The belief that they 'attacked with no provocation' is simply un-informed nonsense that comes straight from Israeli propaganda.

Israel INVADED and stole the land from Palestine by trickery and terrorism.
The Arabs responded to DEFEND Palestine from the invading aggressor.
But they failed.
Israel grew stronger and captured the US politically, gaining access to wealth and arms, and dominated the media.
They took MORE of Palestine in 1967 and keep gobbling up Palestine piece by piece, leaving only 20% now.

Palestinians are regularly massacred and murdered and sniped and kidnapped and tortured - for fighting for the very existence of their own country !
Then they are called 'terrorists' who 'attacked for no reason' - which requires yet more Israeli 'self-defence' to demolish their family homes and steal their treasures and imprison and torture their family and poison their orchards ...

Israel is actually ERASING Palestine.
Palestine is literally being wiped off the map - while Israelis excuse their atrocities because Palestinians WANT to wipe Israel off the map !

War is Peace !
Erasure is Self-Defence !
Ignorance is Security !


Now to be clear, if your argument was that the Europeans who took it upon themselves to carve up the ME, did a horrendously horrible job, you'd have no argument from me. But it appears that you're focused only on this one element of that horrible series of events.

Sure, the European carve-up of the ME was a disaster. But that is only barely tangential to Israel stealing the bulk of Palestine by force in 1948-49, unless you can show some relevant connection. Because the BORDERS of Palestine were not the real argument - it was WHO owned the LAND.

Israel stole Palestine in a war of aggression and ethnic cleansing, and continues to gobble up what's remaining.
Yes, there are other horrors I speak out about - in OTHER places.

Anyway -
for if/when Palestine is all gone, do we have any comments yet on what term should be used ?

The Palestinian Holocaust ?
Holocaust 2.0 ?
The Genocide of Palestine ?
The Israeli Erasure of Palestine ?


Comments welcome :)

Kapyong
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Gday LuisDantas :)



Oh :(
You haven't even begun to consider my 'tale' yet ?

Sorry, but that is exactly right.

I was hoping you would study the historical evidence, considering you have shown so little knowledge of it.
I fear you failed to help there. I heard a lot of passionate words, but little in the way of evidence or new info.
 
Top