Why did the Israel's neighbors attack it in May 1948?

[Kapyong]

Gday LuisDantas and all

While it is natural to want to avoid bad situations, this is a good example of why we should not.

Absolutely yes I think all would agree.

And after I got off my butt and checked out the history and the evidence for myself - I was surprised, then shocked, and then outraged to find the reality in Palestine is nothing like the myths we hear from the story-screens.

I compared the two sides, and this is a summary of what I found happening now :

• Israelis kill about seven times more Palestinians than Israelis are killed.
• Israelis wound about seven times more Palestinians than Israelis are wounded.
• Israelis kill about fifteen times more Palestinian children than Israeli children are killed.
• Israel has been named in 77 UN Resolutions. Palestine just one.
• Israel has imprisoned (and tortured) about 6,700 Palestinians. Palestinians have no imprisoned Israelis.
• Israel has kidnapped, imprisoned, and tortured about 400 Palestinian children. Palestinians, none.
  
• Israelis have destroyed at least 28,000 Palestinians homes. Palestinians have destroyed no Israeli homes.
• Israel has erased over 400 Palestinian villages. Palestinians have erased no Israeli villages.
  
• Israelis occupy 261 illegal settlements on Palestinian land. Palestinians have no settlements on Israeli land.
• Israel receives over $3 billion (maybe $5 billion soon) in arms from the US each year. Palestine gets $0.
• Israel is an occupying power in total military control of all Palestinians. Palestinians are an occupied people with no control of their own lives.
• Israel has possibly the most advanced hi-tech army in the world. Palestinians have rocks, rifles, and some rockets which rarely kill.
• Israelis killed thousands of Palestinians (mostly civilians) 'mowing the grass' in Gaza 2014. Because Palestinians had killed three Israelis.
• Israel is a very powerful nation, having politically captured the US. Palestine is weak and down-trodden and denied to be a state.
• Israel is protected in the UN Security Council by the US. Palestine has only recently achieved even minor status in the UN.
• Israelis dominate the banking sector in the US, and are influential elsewhere. Not so the Palestinians.
• Israelis largely control the mainstream media in the West. Palestinians have no influence.
• Israel claims the land based on their ancient scriptures - which say it belonged to the Palestinian's ancestors, the Canaanites.
• Israel was only created in 1948, following the Zionist's arrival in the 1800s. Palestinians have been living there for many centuries.
• Israel has grown by gobbling up about 80% of Palestine since 1948. Palestine has lost that territory.
• Israel is erasing Palestine. Palestine is not erasing Israel.

Kapyong

 

[LuisDantas]

One difficulty I have with your appeal, @Kapyong , is that you are focusing on the concepts of Israel and Palestine.

That just won't work when talking to me. I think in terms of people and communities, not in what far as I can tell are fictional constructs that do not need any particular love or protection such as "Israel" and "Palestine".

Why should one worry that Palestine or Israel may soon be no more, as long as the actual people are taken proper care of? Why would the loss of Palestine be any more of a worry than, say, the loss of Prussia?

There may well be good reasons why. But you won't convince me by focusing on the concept of Palestine as a nation. I do not worry about the continued existence of nations, because they are inherently artificial and, to a large extent, can exist only by forcing themselves into permanent conflict of interests.

Then there is the matter of land disputes. I see them as a tragedy, a recurrent problem that is enabled by human instincts that conflict with the bare reality of how the world is. They often manifest themselves as bloody conflicts that justify themselves by allegiance to some nation or another.

To be honest and blunt, I do not have any respect to that perspective. Killing real people on behalf of entirely fictional countries and nations is no good whatsoever, and I have zero interest in lending prestige to that idea.

That unfortunately means that you are giving me barely anything that I can use. I do not care about Israel and I do not care about Palestine. Both are just words. Empty names.

What I do want to know, and has so far been denied me, is some explanation of what was the perspective of the communities that declared war on Israel as soon as it was inaugurated.

What could possibly be perceived as good justification for waging bloody war on Israel at that time? I just don't know.

What I do know is that war has a way of perpetuating itself. People have a depressingly strong tendency to decide that they must engage in shameful militaristic action so that others don't do the same before them.

That is just insanity breeding shameful fruit, and no intelligent human being should ever suit himself or herself to such a degenerated role.

And for that reason, and because I see no evidence whatsoever of any serious, lucid proposals coming from the oppositors of Israel, I have barely any choice but to take Israel's side by biiter default.

Peppered with shameful militaristic actions as it is the history of Israel since its inauguration is, for good or worse they at least want to pursue something other than bitter accusations and promises of further bloody action. Meanwhile, their oppositors seem to have nothing to show besides promises of further tragedy. I end up having no choice but to believe them.

 

[Kapyong]

Gday all

May as well put these informative maps together -

Ptolemy's map of Palestine c.100 AD :

Including many known names like Gaza.
Borders not too clear, but quite different to modern times.

Palestine was mentioned by name as early as 1st C. by writers including Ovid, Philo, Josephus, and Plutarch.

The borders change somewhat over the centuries of course, and here is how Palestine looked by 1861 :

Coastal borders similar to modern times, but different inland.

Finally,
here is the info-map I put together about 1948-49, (and then 2012) :

The pale green area (on left) shows the 95% of Israel that was taken by force from Palestine,
with the white area (on left) showing the original 5% of Jewish owned land before the Israeli invasion.


Kapyong

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

OK.
So what ?

So I have zero tolerance for agenda-driven deceit.

 

[LuisDantas]

@Kapyong

I take it that you did not mean to address me, since you are repeating the exact same attitude that I just told you to be meaningless or worse far as I am concerned.

If you want to state that Israel are invaders taking land by force, you better give me actual reasons for thinking that you know what you are talking about.

 

[Gharib]

Sorry, but that is exactly right.


I fear you failed to help there. I heard a lot of passionate words, but little in the way of evidence or new info.

How about we ask @Kapyong to direct us to his evidence. By now he has mentioned a first century historian and many other ancient writers (who didn't seem to have a Muslim name) which we can all accept as unbiased.

I thought you would have asked him for sources seeing how what he has written up to this point is quite accurate. Unless of course you really aren't after the truth that contradicts Israeli-American-UN version of "fact".

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

... here is the info-map I put together about 1948-49, (and then 2012) :

The pale green area (on left) shows the 95% of Israel that was taken by force from Palestine,
with the white area (on left) showing the original 5% of Jewish owned land before the Israeli invasion.


Kapyong

More pathetic deceit.​

"taken by force from 'Palestine'?
​

 

[Gharib]

More pathetic deceit.​

"taken by force from 'Palestine'?
​

That must make it OK since there weren't any people living there?

 

[Gharib]

Destroyed Palestinian Villages

http://interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/PalestineRemix/maps-and-data-visualisations.html

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

How about we ask @Kapyong to direct us to his evidence. By now he has mentioned a first century historian and many other ancient writers (who didn't seem to have a Muslim name) which we can all accept as unbiased.

I thought you would have asked him for sources seeing how what he has written up to this point is quite accurate. Unless of course you really aren't after the truth that contradicts Israeli-American-UN version of "fact".

Yet again ...

That must make it OK since there weren't any people living there?

That wasn't the point at all (and, in fact, there were people there).

 

[LuisDantas]

Yet again ...

I expect to receive my ordered copy of that book in a couple of weeks, tops. I hope to learn a lot from it.

 

[icehorse]

Gday LuisDantas and all

Absolutely yes I think all would agree.

And after I got off my butt and checked out the history and the evidence for myself - I was surprised, then shocked, and then outraged to find the reality in Palestine is nothing like the myths we hear from the story-screens.

I compared the two sides, and this is a summary of what I found happening now :

• Israelis kill about seven times more Palestinians than Israelis are killed.
• Israelis wound about seven times more Palestinians than Israelis are wounded.
• Israelis kill about fifteen times more Palestinian children than Israeli children are killed.
• Israel has been named in 77 UN Resolutions. Palestine just one.
• Israel has imprisoned (and tortured) about 6,700 Palestinians. Palestinians have no imprisoned Israelis.
• Israel has kidnapped, imprisoned, and tortured about 400 Palestinian children. Palestinians, none.
  
• Israelis have destroyed at least 28,000 Palestinians homes. Palestinians have destroyed no Israeli homes.
• Israel has erased over 400 Palestinian villages. Palestinians have erased no Israeli villages.
  
• Israelis occupy 261 illegal settlements on Palestinian land. Palestinians have no settlements on Israeli land.
• Israel receives over $3 billion (maybe $5 billion soon) in arms from the US each year. Palestine gets $0.
• Israel is an occupying power in total military control of all Palestinians. Palestinians are an occupied people with no control of their own lives.
• Israel has possibly the most advanced hi-tech army in the world. Palestinians have rocks, rifles, and some rockets which rarely kill.
• Israelis killed thousands of Palestinians (mostly civilians) 'mowing the grass' in Gaza 2014. Because Palestinians had killed three Israelis.
• Israel is a very powerful nation, having politically captured the US. Palestine is weak and down-trodden and denied to be a state.
• Israel is protected in the UN Security Council by the US. Palestine has only recently achieved even minor status in the UN.
• Israelis dominate the banking sector in the US, and are influential elsewhere. Not so the Palestinians.
• Israelis largely control the mainstream media in the West. Palestinians have no influence.
• Israel claims the land based on their ancient scriptures - which say it belonged to the Palestinian's ancestors, the Canaanites.
• Israel was only created in 1948, following the Zionist's arrival in the 1800s. Palestinians have been living there for many centuries.
• Israel has grown by gobbling up about 80% of Palestine since 1948. Palestine has lost that territory.
• Israel is erasing Palestine. Palestine is not erasing Israel.

Kapyong

Wow Kapyong,

The implication here is that you're either trying to snow the gullible, or you really haven't done your homework. This collection of yours is just, I don't know what to say here... weak?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I expect to receive my ordered copy of that book in a couple of weeks, tops. I hope to learn a lot from it.

Thank you. I think you'll appreciate it.

 

[Kapyong]

Gday LuisDantas and all

That just won't work when talking to me. I think in terms of people and communities, not in what far as I can tell are fictional constructs that do not need any particular love or protection such as "Israel" and "Palestine".

People and communities, eh ?
Well,
in 1948-49 thousands of local people (all labelled with the fictional construct 'Palestinians') were ejected from their home-land, hundreds of entire communities were destroyed, many of those local people died - even sometimes in massacres of civilians. All done by force by some newcomers with the fictional construct name 'Israelis' - with orders to kill all adult men having the fictionally constructed label 'Palestinian'.

About 80% of the local population (fictionally called 'Palestinians'), having lived there peacefully for centuries, were forced out - under pain of death.
But some of the population, those with the fictional label 'Jewish Palestinians', were NOT pushed out at all, but supported by the newcomers - fictionally called 'Israelis' - in taking all the land and houses of the region, which were all now mysteriously empty for no reason.

Ethnic cleansing pure and simple.

Why should one worry that Palestine or Israel may soon be no more, as long as the actual people are taken proper care of ?

Taken proper care of ?

Well,
those people with the fictional label 'Palestinian' suffer :

• massacres, even of thousands, e.g. Gaza 2014, mostly civilians
• massacres that happen every few years - called 'mowing the grass'
  
• outright murder at checkpoints, even for just getting confused by shouts and going the wrong way
• women and/or children murdered by sniper for sport, or even just for going down the wrong street
• execution by a medic while lying helpless and wounded on the ground
  
• youngsters kidnapped in the middle of the night, imprisoned, even tortured and sexually abused
• their homes demolished, their orchards poisoned, their villages wiped out, their water stolen, their food restricted
• being used as human shields, usually the imprisoned youngsters
• beatings and assaults and humiliations on a daily basis
• death from illness (or even child-birth) by the side of the road, being not allowed any medical aid
• immediate murder (called 'neutralising) as a 'terrorist' even for being, or LOOKING threatening

All done by the new-comers with the fictionally constructed name of 'Israeli'.

That is what is actually happening right now Luis.
The arbitrarily labelled 'Palestinians' are NOT being 'taken proper care of' at all.

Their country was stolen from them by force, it has almost been entirely swallowed up.
They are being massacred and murdered and tortured and sexually abused and assaulted.
Do you care about those people or not ?


Kapyong

 

[Kapyong]

Gday LuisDantas

If you want to state that Israel are invaders taking land by force, you better give me actual reasons for thinking that you know what you are talking about.

The obvious reasons would be that I researched the history.
Israel did take the land by force.

I would have thought the only good reason for you to believe me, would have been for you to check the many claims I have made - to see how reliable my claims are.

But I see you have not done that, nor does it appear you intend to.
Even though your knowledge of the 1948-49 events is almost non-existent.

In other words, in the face of a great deal of facts and evidence and maps I have produced in this thread, your answer amounts to :
I don't believe you.
Without addressing a single one of my supporting claims. Without checking anything I said.
Disappointing.


I see various other posters here have also failed to address any of my claims or evidence or argument.

Please folks -

• posting just a video supporting your view is worthless. Will you even view, let alone agree with, a video supporting my view ?
• so too just linking a book that supports your view. I can link ten books to your one - so what ?
• arguing the meanings of terms is useless - I use words in their standard common meanings, why would anyone want to argue ?
  
• blanket claims that all my arguments are wrong, without addressing any one them - scores 0 points

I look forward to informed discussion of the issues.



Kapyong

 

[Gharib]

Gday LuisDantas



The obvious reasons would be that I researched the history.
Israel did take the land by force.

I would have thought the only good reason for you to believe me, would have been for you to check the many claims I have made - to see how reliable my claims are.

But I see you have not done that, nor does it appear you intend to.
Even though your knowledge of the 1948-49 events is almost non-existent.

In other words, in the face of a great deal of facts and evidence and maps I have produced in this thread, your answer amounts to :
I don't believe you.
Without addressing a single one of my supporting claims. Without checking anything I said.
Disappointing.


I see various other posters here have also failed to address any of my claims or evidence or argument.

Please folks -

• posting just a video supporting your view is worthless. Will you even view, let alone agree with, a video supporting my view ?
• so too just linking a book that supports your view. I can link ten books to your one - so what ?
• arguing the meanings of terms is useless - I use words in their standard common meanings, why would anyone want to argue ?
  
• blanket claims that all my arguments are wrong, without addressing any one them - scores 0 points

I look forward to informed discussion of the issues.



Kapyong

I agree, for a thread that is seeking 'the other side of the story' your arguments/evidence have faced nothing other than 'I don't believe you' or I don't know much about the issue' or 'Israel and it's allies say otherwise'. Which, in all types of responses, makes you wrong because you are wrong regardless of what you say.

 

[icehorse]

Taken proper care of ?

Well,
those people with the fictional label 'Palestinian' suffer :

• massacres, even of thousands, e.g. Gaza 2014, mostly civilians
• massacres that happen every few years - called 'mowing the grass'
  
• outright murder at checkpoints, even for just getting confused by shouts and going the wrong way
• women and/or children murdered by sniper for sport, or even just for going down the wrong street
• execution by a medic while lying helpless and wounded on the ground
  
• youngsters kidnapped in the middle of the night, imprisoned, even tortured and sexually abused
• their homes demolished, their orchards poisoned, their villages wiped out, their water stolen, their food restricted
• being used as human shields, usually the imprisoned youngsters
• beatings and assaults and humiliations on a daily basis
• death from illness (or even child-birth) by the side of the road, being not allowed any medical aid
• immediate murder (called 'neutralising) as a 'terrorist' even for being, or LOOKING threatening

All done by the new-comers with the fictionally constructed name of 'Israeli'.

That is what is actually happening right now Luis.
The arbitrarily labelled 'Palestinians' are NOT being 'taken proper care of' at all.

Their country was stolen from them by force, it has almost been entirely swallowed up.
They are being massacred and murdered and tortured and sexually abused and assaulted.
Do you care about those people or not ?

Kapyong

Wait what? You think Hamas isn't culpable?

 

[columbus]

Wait what? You think Hamas isn't culpable?

He also seems unaware of the multiple military assaults on Israel by the Arabs.
I don't take anyone who posts maps of Israeli expansion that ignore that aspect of the history seriously.
Tom

 

[YmirGF]

I look forward to informed discussion of the issues.

Do let us know when you are actually informed. The rest of your diatribe is unworthy of serious response.

 

[Lyndon]

Not surprisingly its the same outspoken anti Muslim posters from other threads, that chime in on the pro Israel posts.