Why did the Israel's neighbors attack it in May 1948?

[Kapyong]

Gday Jayhawker Soule and all,

You cherry-pick an incident, and then wed a disgusting and willful lie with an outrageous generalization. It's called antisemitic demagoguery, and it pretty much says everything that one needs to know about both your agenda and your ethics.

In fact I brought up a critical example of a very serious problem - Israelis willfully kill Palestinians with impunity.
As this incident shows, and which happens frequently.
But Jayhawker Soule refuses to discuss the incident, and tries the usual game of deflection.

There is a VIDEO of someone throwing a knife towards the dead body.
But Jayhawker Soule falsely tries to dismiss it as a lie.

Then he brings out the Big Guns !
Anti-semitism !

The accusation that wins all arguments, every time.
Because daring to criticise the Holy Cow of Israel is always wrong.
Always.

I can criticise the German govt and not be abused as anti-Germanic,
or the Chinese govt, and not be shouted down as anti-Sinic,
or Turkish govt, not abused as anti-Turkic,
or Australian, not 'anti-Aussie'.
I can criticise the US govt and not be howled down as 'Anti-American' - oh wait, bad example.

Sorry Jayhawker Soule, but that tired ol' canard just doesn't fly any more.
The era of Holocaustianity (TM) is over.

My agenda is to spread the truth about Palestine after decades of Israeli propaganda.
Yours appears to be defending that same propaganda.

Let's talk about ETHICS then Jayhawker Soule -

• Do YOU agree with Medic Sgt Elor Azaria executing al-Sharif as he lay helpless and wounded on the ground ?
• Do you think Medic Sgt Elor Azaria executed al-Sharif because he thought him sub-human ?
• Do YOU believe that Jews are superior to non-Jews ?
• Will you ever answer these direct questions ?

Kapyong

 

[Kapyong]

Gday rosends

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post.

What immediately stood out was this :

Israel is erasing Palestine. Palestine is not erasing Israel.

Response: Given a chance, Arabs WOULD erase Israel. Note the slogan “From the river to the sea…”

So, you AGREE with me that Israel is erasing Palestine, because they too want it all “from the river to the sea…”
But you justify Israel ACTUALLY erasing Palestine, because Hamas WANTS to erase Israel from their Palestinian homeland.

Do you really believe that to be a rational argument ?

Because frankly it is so ridiculous as to be insulting to the intelligence of all readers here.

Then after agreeing with me that Israel IS actually erasing Palestine (but offering a nonsense excuse for it), you claim all of my points have been refuted !

Who do you think you are fooling ?


Kapyong

 

[Kapyong]

Gday rosends and all

Israel STOLE the land from Palestine by force - by terrorism and trickery.

Response: No, Israel was declared pursuant to various international documents, and voted on by the UN, then attacked by Arab forces. Land was bought, land was set aside by the international community and land was claimed during a defensive war.

Such a totally false view of history comes straight from Israeli propaganda, and is easily shown wrong by anyone who researches the facts.
(It is also shown wrong by my various previous posts which you could easily have read for yourself.)

Sure, Balfour promised the Jews a homeland, and Zionist Jews had bought up maybe 5% of the land, and the UN recommended a plan allowing Israel to take much of Palestine - a plan the Palestinians rejected of course.

You skipped over the important bits that came next.

Israel uni-laterally declared itself a state claiming much of Palestine.
Palestinians rejected this outright.
They fought for 10 months.
The Arabs fought back against the invaders, in defence of Palestine.
But Israel won the land by force (and has held it ever since.)

Now after so many years of Israeli propaganda, the actual history is being replaced with the myth.
As if poor plucky little Israel was attacked for no reason at all.

When in fact Israel was an invader who fought an aggressive war of land capture,
and the Arabs were just defending the land of Palestine.

Just look at this example of Israeli propaganda, Newspeak at its purest :
" ... land was claimed during a defensive war ... "

Invading and capturing most of someones else's country is a ' defensive war ' !
At least it is when Israel is the invader.

Here are the facts of this alleged 'defensive war' :

In April 1948 the pale-green areas were called Palestine, owned by Palestinians, and occupied by Palestinians.
They fought for almost a year over the land of Palestine.
By April 1949 the pale-green areas were called Israel, owned by Israelis, and occupied by Israelis.

Is anyone here really still denying that Israel invaded and captured most of Palestine by force ?


Kapyong

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Gday Jayhawker Soule and all,
In fact I brought up a critical example of a very serious problem ...

In fact you modeled a serious problem: the transparent willingness of some to cherry-pick an incident, and then wed a disgusting and willful lie with an outrageous generalization.

 

[rosends]

So, you AGREE with me that Israel is erasing Palestine, because they too want it all “from the river to the sea…”
But you justify Israel ACTUALLY erasing Palestine, because Hamas WANTS to erase Israel from their Palestinian homeland.

Except that there is no "Palestine" to erase. There have been a number of offers for 2 states. http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=83&x_article=2116
Israel hasn't claimed "from the river to the sea." You have constructed a straw man and now want to knock it down. The fact is, the Arab forces have been sworn on destroying the entirety of Israel and yet even from the beginning: David Horowitz, State in the Making, (NY: Alfred A. Knopf, 1953), p. 233 and the quote by Azzam Pasha there. You might also want to read up on why the Peel Commission report failed. It was because the Arabs rejected the mere idea of any Jewish state so partitioning under the Peel recommendations couldn't happen. http://www.britannica.com/event/Peel-Commission

 

[metis]

Or as what was said about Arafat, he/they "never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity".

 

[rosends]

Gday rosends and all




Such a totally false view of history comes straight from Israeli propaganda, and is easily shown wrong by anyone who researches the facts.
(It is also shown wrong by my various previous posts which you could easily have read for yourself.)

Sure, Balfour promised the Jews a homeland, and Zionist Jews had bought up maybe 5% of the land, and the UN recommended a plan allowing Israel to take much of Palestine - a plan the Palestinians rejected of course.

You skipped over the important bits that came next.

Israel uni-laterally declared itself a state claiming much of Palestine.
Palestinians rejected this outright.
They fought for 10 months.
The Arabs fought back against the invaders, in defence of Palestine.
But Israel won the land by force (and has held it ever since.)

Now after so many years of Israeli propaganda, the actual history is being replaced with the myth.
As if poor plucky little Israel was attacked for no reason at all.

When in fact Israel was an invader who fought an aggressive war of land capture,
and the Arabs were just defending the land of Palestine.

Just look at this example of Israeli propaganda, Newspeak at its purest :
" ... land was claimed during a defensive war ... "

Invading and capturing most of someones else's country is a ' defensive war ' !
At least it is when Israel is the invader.

Here are the facts of this alleged 'defensive war' :

In April 1948 the pale-green areas were called Palestine, owned by Palestinians, and occupied by Palestinians.
They fought for almost a year over the land of Palestine.
By April 1949 the pale-green areas were called Israel, owned by Israelis, and occupied by Israelis.

Is anyone here really still denying that Israel invaded and captured most of Palestine by force ?


Kapyong

I note (and with no real surprise) that you claim that the facts and evidence I presented is propaganda and you don't deal with any of it. You simply restate your same claims pretending that they have the weight of evidence because you say them so often. That's not how history works. You are mired in this fiction of an invading entity and a pre-existing Palestinian construct. You are wrong on both counts and I have presented the evidence from a variety of sources. I can't help you if you refuse to read the sources and consider them at all.

 

[YmirGF]

I note (and with no real surprise) that you claim that the facts and evidence I presented is propaganda and you don't deal with any of it. You simply restate your same claims pretending that they have the weight of evidence because you say them so often. That's not how history works. You are mired in this fiction of an invading entity and a pre-existing Palestinian construct. You are wrong on both counts and I have presented the evidence from a variety of sources. I can't help you if you refuse to read the sources and consider them at all.

Well, to be fair, rosends, one cannot take the words of those wily shape-shifting Jews at face value. They will steal your children if you're not watching them like a hawk.

In April 1948 the pale-green areas were called Palestine, owned by Palestinians, and occupied by Palestinians.
They fought for almost a year over the land of Palestine.
By April 1949 the pale-green areas were called Israel, owned by Israelis, and occupied by Israelis.

Is anyone here really still denying that Israel invaded and captured most of Palestine by force ?

You make it sound like this was just a wild land grab by the Jews in the region and neglect to point out that the creation of the States of Israel and Palestine were sanctioned by the United Nations. The Israelis had misgivings about the planned partition but eventually agreed. The Arabs in the region never agreed to the plan, that much is true. Israel declared independence and the next day was attacked by her indignant new neighbors. It was a tough long fight and Israel almost lost at a few points... but in the end, it did prevail - barely. Yes, lands were seized during the battles, but that is a long time honored tradition and the losers generally don't get much say in what happens after those decisive battles.

@Nietzsche Would you say that is more or less correct?

 

[YmirGF]

Or as what was said about Arafat, he/they "never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity".

I've read several accounts of both Madeleine Albright and Bill Clinton almost ready to throttle Arafat. By many accounts he was near impossible to deal with.

 

[Kapyong]

Gday all,

Let's further consider that Excuse #2 But Hamas ! about Hamas' charter wanting Israel gone.

The land was nearly all Palestinian in April 1948.
Israel invaded and captured much of Palestine by force over about 10 months.
The Arabs failed to defend their Palestinian friend's land from the invader.
About 80% of the local Palestinian population were forced out by ethnic cleansing.
By April 1949 the land was securely in the hands of Israelis and renamed 'Israel'.
That's history.

Now,
Hamas wants Palestine back in the hands of the recent owners - Palestinians.
Hamas (and all Palestinians) certainly do WANT the Israel invader gone, and openly say so.
Of COURSE they do ! Every people WANT their invader gone.

But incredibly,
because Hamas WANT the Israeli invader gone,
that's now used as an excuse for Israel to capture and wipe out Palestine, and execute Palestinians (they call it 'neutralising a terrorist') along the way.

Let's boil that argument down to the nub :

It's OK to invade and capture someone else's country
PROVIDED the locals don't want you there !​

The pro-Israelis are so far down the propaganda rabbit-hole, that they actually seem to believe this argument.
Even more astonishingly, they seem to think observers will believe such nonsense.

War is Peace !
Invasion is Defense !
Palestinians are Terrorists !

Fortunately, many people are learning the realities in Palestine without the usual white-washing of the pro-Israeli media.

Such as the recent execution of wounded and helpless Abed al-Fatah al-Sharif by Medic Sgt Elor Azaria, on camera.
The response of an Israeli MEDIC (who always helps human beings apparently) to a man lying wounded and helpless on the ground un-aided for several minutes, was to shoot him in the head.
Followed by a knife being thrown near the body, on camera.

Will any pro-Israeli ever address this ?
Or will it be the usual silly games of total silence about Israelis atrocities, with endless and loud repetition of Excuse #2 But Hamas !

Let's cut to the chase - will the pro-Israelis please make their position clear on these key questions :

• Do you support Medic Sgt Azaria's execution of al-Sharif ?
• Do you think Medic Sgt Azaria executed al-Sharif because he saw him as sub-human ?
  
• Do you believe in a Jewish soul, or something, that makes Jews superior to non-Jews ?
• Is this belief in Jewish superiority widespread in Israel ?
• In the IDF ?
• In Netanyahu's extreme right-wing cabinet ?

Which really boils down to one very important question :

Are Israeli (or Jewish) lives worth more than Palestinian (or Muslim) lives ?

Let's have answers, not dodges please


Kapyong

 

[Kapyong]

Gday all

As a student of history of course, this is a very interesting case (if horrifying.)

Because here, ladies and gentlemen of the audience, you can see before your very eyes just How the Sausage is Made.

This is the actual process by which history is re-written by the victors.

The basics are as follows :

• Repeat your propaganda endlessly and loudly in movies and books and shows and internet.
• Reject all evidence of media bias as 'conspiracy theories'.
• Ensure the US blindly supports you in the UN and in Congress.
• Censor text-books that make your crimes too obvious
  
• Bring up Holocaustianity (TM) as often as possible - and always give an Oscar to a movie version.
  
• Try Excuse #2 But Hamas ! when ever Israeli atrocities are mentioned, or simply deflect with excuses.
  
• Deny the victims a voice.
• Use Excuse #1 Not a State ! whenever questioned about self-determination for Palestinians.
  
• De-humanise them with terms like 'cockroaches', 'crocodiles', 'beasts', 'animals' and 'terrorists'.
  
• Describe your crimes in positive terms e.g. call invasion the gaining of land by a defensive war.
• But abuse your victims with lies such as calling them 'attackers' and 'terrorists' when they fight back to hold their own land.
• Use Excuse #3 - Self-Defence whenever an Israeli murders a Palestinian.
  
• Denounce and insult anyone who disagrees with you, and call them anti-semitic to instantly win any argument.
• Fall back on Excuse #4 Distraction ! if all else fails.

But,
I will admit to being a little surprised and disappointed at the number of people who DO fall for it.


Kapyong

 

[Flankerl]

You ignored all my many arguments, and the evidence, outright.
You failed to address any of my points.
Why do you think that is funny ?

Because you think you are original. You aren't. We get users like you every once in a while. Entertaining for a short time but overall rather boring.

While you were doing whatever you are usually doing we've all been over this topic countless times. It gets old to see the same arguments so often used again and again.

Oh, so that's your excuse for ignoring the evidence, and dismissing everything I say ?
So then why ARE you fighting here ? Repeatedly making silly childish insults ?

Seems like the real reason is that you know you would lose - because I know the facts compared to the propaganda, and I am familiar with all the pro-Israeli excuses and dodges, and I am running rings around you.

Oh my aren't you a true hero of mankind.
I am not fighting, I am writing. Might be handy to learn the difference.

Yeah yeah you know the truth, Israel is evil, Freedom for Falestin, Allahu Akbar, Khaybar Khaybar......... so old, so boring.

I have posted a great deal of information and evidence and argument.
Not one poster here has been prepared to address even a single one of my points.

Instead I have been :

• personally insulted as 'stupid' and 'deceitful',
• laughed at,
• dis-believed,
• ignored,
• and rejected.

It seems the pro-Israelis cannot handle the truth :

Yup that's it. We are just what we are. While you are oh so full of wisdom. I think around 2005 that was still rather unique on the net, though probably not. Definitely not so much anymore.

Personally I really dig the maps. They are fun. But at the same time so old. So overused. It's just not how it used to be.

Israel invaded and captured most of Palestinian in 1948-49 by military force and ethnic cleansing.
That is the record of history. No point in denying the plain facts.

THAT's why the Arabs attacked Israel - to defend the stolen Palestine.

Now Palestine is almost gone - 80% gobbled up, and their people are massacred and murdered and kidnapped and tortured etc.

Oh now writing in bold and caps lock. Not bad. You think that strengthens your point? Nah not really.

Israel is committing a new Holocaust 2.0 on the Palestinians.
Are you really a Holocaust 2.0 denier, Flankerl ?

Yeah we had that topic last week. You see even for that you are too late. I won't get worked up about it again. Learned my lesson. *wink at Staff*


PS

I think Flankerl lives in Austria, and supports the far right parties there, because they are against Muslims living in Europe. Correct me if I'm wrong, Flankerl.

Well aren't you adorable. I even opened a thread about the recent presidential elections where I wrote who I support.

But hey baseless accusations are easier than actually reading something.

 

[Lyndon]

Sorry, I don't go out of my way to read your threads, Flankerl, I definitely seem to remember a strong right wing slant to some of your posts I read, though, I just assumed that was your position.

 

[LuisDantas]

Not surprisingly its the same outspoken anti Muslim posters from other threads, that chime in on the pro Israel posts.

I call that "coherence meets bias".

Hopefully we will both meet more surprises in the times ahead.

 

[YmirGF]

Sorry, I don't go out of my way to read your threads, Flankerl, I definitely seem to remember a strong right wing slant to some of your posts I read, though, I just assumed that was your position.

I don't see the "right wing" aspect at all. If I'm not wrong, Flankerl is somewhat progressive. @Flankerl

 

[Gharib]

Gday all

As a student of history of course, this is a very interesting case (if horrifying.)

Because here, ladies and gentlemen of the audience, you can see before your very eyes just How the Sausage is Made.

This is the actual process by which history is re-written by the victors.

The basics are as follows :

• Repeat your propaganda endlessly and loudly in movies and books and shows and internet.
• Reject all evidence of media bias as 'conspiracy theories'.
• Ensure the US blindly supports you in the UN and in Congress.
• Censor text-books that make your crimes too obvious
  
• Bring up Holocaustianity (TM) as often as possible - and always give an Oscar to a movie version.
  
• Try Excuse #2 But Hamas ! when ever Israeli atrocities are mentioned, or simply deflect with excuses.
  
• Deny the victims a voice.
• Use Excuse #1 Not a State ! whenever questioned about self-determination for Palestinians.
  
• De-humanise them with terms like 'cockroaches', 'crocodiles', 'beasts', 'animals' and 'terrorists'.
  
• Describe your crimes in positive terms e.g. call invasion the gaining of land by a defensive war.
• But abuse your victims with lies such as calling them 'attackers' and 'terrorists' when they fight back to hold their own land.
• Use Excuse #3 - Self-Defence whenever an Israeli murders a Palestinian.
  
• Denounce and insult anyone who disagrees with you, and call them anti-semitic to instantly win any argument.
• Fall back on Excuse #4 Distraction ! if all else fails.

But,
I will admit to being a little surprised and disappointed at the number of people who DO fall for it.


Kapyong

Quite interesting, almost all the points you have listed have occurred in this very thread. Not one response has so far actually addressed any of your claims/evidence.

I think this is basic protocol. Remember late last year/early this year when the UN refrained from listing Israel as a child rights violator when a number of UN agencies clearly said that Israel is among the worst of those who violate children's rights through indiscriminate killing.

They label themselves as the best Democracy in the Middle East who also happens to imprison children as young as they go for throwing a stone. I'm glad that all others are lacking behind and hope that they never become the Democracy that Israel is.

Moreover, the issue of US and UN backing. Lets face it, a criminal will help a fellow criminal so long as they aren't betrayed. Israels formation through invasion and killing off of innocent people who inhabited the land is also shared by many other 'powerful' countries so this is their attempt at victimizing themselves and vilifying the victim.

Look at UK's history of invasion and colonization, the formation of the US, Australia, Canada, etc. It even begs the question, are Jews really that innocent of what happened to them at the hands of Nazi Germany??? We only have the Jewish/American/UN version and we all know which version that is.

So I invite you all to read the following version and unless someone can disprove this version by other than calling it propaganda or what not, I will listen.

http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/israel/freedman.htm

 

[Gharib]

While you were doing whatever you are usually doing we've all been over this topic countless times. It gets old to see the same arguments so often used again and again.

Yes, it's boring to see the same arguments again and again, unlike seeing no evidence from your side other than shouting 'Propaganda', 'Anti-Semitic', etc whenever you are called to account for the Palestinian genocide committed by a group of people who reflect Nazi Germany in an improved style of brutality and terrorism.

Nazi's believed they were the superior race (according to your version of the story) which is why they killed Jews. The holocaust of the Palestinian people at the hands of Israel is Nazi Germany version two.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_policy_of_Nazi_Germany

 

[Gharib]

Benjamin Freedman - The truth of Israel/Jews

 

[Kapyong]

Gday Gharib and all

Nazi's believed they were the superior race (according to your version of the story) which is why they killed Jews. The holocaust of the Palestinian people at the hands of Israel is Nazi Germany version two.

Yes indeed, tragically.
What Israeli is doing to the Palestinians now is much like
what the Nazis did to the Jews back in WW2.

After WW2 :
Remember the Holocaust !
Never let it happen again !

After Palestine :
Remember the Holocausts !
Never let it happen a third time !


Kapyong

 

[Gharib]

Gday Gharib and all



Yes indeed, tragically.
What Israeli is doing to the Palestinians now is much like
what the Nazis did to the Jews back in WW2.

After WW2 :
Remember the Holocaust !
Never let it happen again !

After Palestine :
Remember the Holocausts !
Never let it happen a third time !


Kapyong

Yes, but with a difference. In Holocaust #1 the Germans were the terrorists and evil people.
In Holocaust #2, the Palestinians are the terrorists and evil people.

I wonder if Jews have ever claimed responsibility of having done something wrong??