Why Did The Mormon Church Become Involved In The Proposition 8 Battle?

[Storm]

I did not call any person an abomination, I called certain actions an abomination.

No, you didn't. Even if you did, you still talked of wanting to "rid the world" of my kind.

 

[Katzpur]

"In order for evil' to prevail, all that need happen is for good' people to do nothing"

silence is a form of acceptance.

So "good people" are supposed to judge "bad people" of being undeserving of their civil rights?

 

[idea]

actually, i would argue it is only through Jesus that everything becomes real. faith in God's Son and the indwelling (giving) of the Holy Spirit can and do occur at the same time. it's Jesus' name which saves a person, and Jesus' sacrifice and living power to save which accomplishes this, too.

anyone can call on a dead saint or martyr for help and protection. but what makes Christ unique is that He is alive, able to do all things, and Someone one can know and call upon, and Who is alive and ready to answer with real help. without Jesus, there would be no Holy Spirit to send, in the Christian context. according to the Gospels, Acts, and the Epistles, the Spirit is given by Christ, not the other way around.

Without the Spirit, we do not have access to Christ.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance,
(New Testament | John 14:26)

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
(New Testament | John 3:5)

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
(Old Testament | Ezekiel 36:27)

The Spirit is our link to Christ.

 

[gnomon]

This is why the LDS church got involved.

PUBLIC AFFAIRS: At the outset, can you explain why this whole issue of homosexuality and same-gender marriage is important to the Church?

ELDER OAKS: This is much bigger than just a question of whether or not society should be more tolerant of the homosexual lifestyle. Over past years we have seen unrelenting pressure from advocates of that lifestyle to accept as normal what is not normal, and to characterize those who disagree as narrow-minded, bigoted and unreasonable. Such advocates are quick to demand freedom of speech and thought for themselves, but equally quick to criticize those with a different view and, if possible, to silence them by applying labels like “homophobic.” In at least one country where homosexual activists have won major concessions, we have even seen a church pastor threatened with prison for preaching from the pulpit that homosexual behavior is sinful. Given these trends, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints must take a stand on doctrine and principle. This is more than a social issue — ultimately it may be a test of our most basic religious freedoms to teach what we know our Father in Heaven wants us to teach.

So the Church traveled back in time to support campaigns in Hawaii opposing same sex marriage after a handful of civil lawsuits?

Or do you fail to recognize that the Church has engaged in opposing same sex marriage for non-LDS prior to Prop 8? Prior to this current century? Or was it that the Church was okay with same sex marriage prior to these lawsuits, while excommunicating homosexuals removing them from the familial seal, but a few leaders got their knickers in a twist over being called homophobic?

Do you know elders have changed stances regarding homosexuality? Such as opposing the concept of treating gay men by having them marry into heterosexual marriages. If I remember that one came straight from Hinckley.

 

[idea]

So "good people" are supposed to judge "bad people" of being undeserving of their civil rights?

People who understand what marriage is about should help those who do not yet have an understanding avoid following a path they will later regret.

not "judge not" just "do not judge wrongfully"

18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.
(Book of Mormon | Moroni 7:18)

there is no question that practicing homosexuality is an abomination to God. We do not have to judge this, God has already judged it for us.

gotta run. FHE time

 

[McBell]

People who understand what marriage is about should help those who do not yet have an understanding avoid following a path they will later regret.

not "judge not" just "do not judge wrongfully"

18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.
(Book of Mormon | Moroni7:18)

there is no question that practicing homosexuality is an abomination to God. We do not have to judge this, God has already judged it for us.

gotta run. FHE time

What a load horse dung.
Marriage is a legal contract.

You can add all the fluff and glitter and glamour you want.
It is all but window dressing.

Marriage is a legal contract.

 

[ayani]

understandably, our theology is probably very, very different.

in my understanding, the Holy Spirit is not a "person" or "god", but simply the Spirit of God. and is also called the Spirit of Jesus in Acts 16:7. God's Spirit can and does guide a person to that point through various means, but the indwelling of the Spirit does not occur without faith in God's Son, because of Whom the Spirit is given. it's His Spirit in one's heart which gives that born-again expereince and new life, yet it's Jesus who gives it.

But when the time had fully come, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons. Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba,Father." (Galatians 4:4-6)

Without the Spirit, we do not have access to Christ.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance,
(New Testament | John14:26)

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
(New Testament | John3:5)

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
(Old Testament | Ezekiel36:27)

The Spirit is our link to Christ.

 

[Katzpur]

there is no question that practicing homosexuality is an abomination to God. We do not have to judge this, God has already judged it for us.

He did. This thread is not about whether homosexuality is right or wrong. I think you've missed that point entirely.

 

[tumbleweed41]

The LDS has every right to excommunicate any gay member it wants, but it needs to keep its interpretations of its reveled revelations out of the lives and homes of non LDS members.

1 Thessalonians 4:11 Also, make it your goal to live quietly, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we instructed you,

2 Thessalonians 3:12 Now such persons we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ to work in quiet fashion and eat their own bread.

In other words--Keep your noses out of the lives of non members.

 

[Katzpur]

The LDS has every right to excommunicate any gay member it wants, but it needs to keep its interpretations of its reveled revelations out of the lives and homes of non LDS members.

Just as an FYI, the Church doesn't excommunicate anyone based on sexual preference. It excommunicates based on behavior choices. Far more heterosexuals have been excommunicated for sex outside of marriage than have homosexuals. The Church teaches that all sexual relations except between a married man and a woman are wrong. The Church's policy on excommunications has absolutely nothing to do with this topic.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Just as an FYI, the Church doesn't excommunicate anyone based on sexual preference. It excommunicates based on behavior choices. Far more heterosexuals have been excommunicated for sex outside of marriage than have homosexuals. The Church teaches that all sexual relations except between a married man and a woman are wrong. The Church's policy on excommunications has absolutely nothing to do with this topic.

Alright then, if the behavior choice is to marry someone of the same sex, would they be excommunicated?

As for heterosexuals being excommunicated for adultery, why then would they not push for stricter state laws punishing adultery?

The point being, what the church does within its walls concerning the lives of its members is its own business. Involving itself in the private affairs of non members by pushing for state laws banning same sex marriages is putting its nose where it does not belong.

 

[Autodidact]

how would you have ruled if you were the judge in the following?

Do you think eharmony should be forced to provide services for SS couples? Do you think that doctors should be forced to do things against their beliefs? Do you believe that pastors and teachers have the right to preach whatever they will in church? Do you believe that adoption agencies have the right to deny SS couples children? Do you believe that wedding photographers have the right to photograph who and what they may? How would you have ruled in these cases? Just curious. I suspect that in fact you would not defend our rights, just a hunch, I could be wrong.

here are some issues:
eHarmony.com sued for excluding homosexuals
eHarmony.com sued for excluding homosexuals

Moonbattery: Christians Sued for Not Participating in Homosexual Ceremony
Christians Sued for Not Participating in Homosexual Ceremony

Lesbian Sues Christian Doctor Over Refusal to Inseminate
Lesbian Sues Christian Doctor Over Refusal to Inseminate
Religious rights? Not for doctors

View Press Release
Pastor Sued For Alleged Hate Speech

Catholic Adoption Agency Will Close Before Giving Children to Homosexual Parents, Bishop States
Catholic Adoption Agency Will Close Before Giving Children to Homosexual Parents

Boy Scouts vs. homosexuals
Boy Scouts vs. homosexuals

Let's try a counter-example, just to see whether you're consistent. Are you familiar with the Church of Jesus Christ, Christian? They believe that Jews are descendants of Satan, and are using pre-Adamic mud-people (African-Americans) to lure White Christians into granting civil rights, so that we will defy God's eternal law of racial segregation, thereby provoking God into punishing us. Should a Christian Identity run dating agency be allowed to deny their services to Jews and African-Americans? What about Mormons? Should they be allowed to deny services to people of different religions and races?

As for your question, it would depend on whether anyof those instances were violations of existing anti-discrimination laws. I certainly agree with the court in the Boy Scout case. The Boy Scouts can discriminate in that way; they can't use my tax dollars to do it. Do you agree or disagree?

 

[challupa]

How do you define love? Is it loving to enable someone to harm themselves?

Is it loving to think that ONLY your definition of truth is right? You do not know that what you believe is the truth and nothing but the truth. If you say you know for sure then you are delusional, lying or being a hypocrite. Therefore, your definition of the truth should not be forced on others. Comparing homosexuality to alcholism proves to me that you know nothing about homosexuality and yet you believe your beliefs should be forced on everyone. That is not love idea, that is committing the the same infraction you are accusing others of, taking away the freedom to be who you are and believe what you want to believe. You get to believe what you like in America, you do not get to force that belief on others. That system protects your right to believe what you want, how about returning the favor.

 

[Autodidact]

how would you have ruled if you were the judge in the following?

Do you think eharmony should be forced to provide services for SS couples? Do you think that doctors should be forced to do things against their beliefs? Do you believe that pastors and teachers have the right to preach whatever they will in church? Do you believe that adoption agencies have the right to deny SS couples children? Do you believe that wedding photographers have the right to photograph who and what they may? How would you have ruled in these cases? Just curious. I suspect that in fact you would not defend our rights, just a hunch, I could be wrong.

here are some issues:
eHarmony.com sued for excluding homosexuals
eHarmony.com sued for excluding homosexuals

Moonbattery: Christians Sued for Not Participating in Homosexual Ceremony
Christians Sued for Not Participating in Homosexual Ceremony

Lesbian Sues Christian Doctor Over Refusal to Inseminate
Lesbian Sues Christian Doctor Over Refusal to Inseminate
Religious rights? Not for doctors

View Press Release
Pastor Sued For Alleged Hate Speech

Catholic Adoption Agency Will Close Before Giving Children to Homosexual Parents, Bishop States
Catholic Adoption Agency Will Close Before Giving Children to Homosexual Parents

Boy Scouts vs. homosexuals
Boy Scouts vs. homosexuals

Are Gay doctors refusing services to Mormons? Do Boy Scouts exclude Mormons? Do Gay adoption agencies refuse to place children with Mormon families? Are Lesbian doctors refusing to treat Mormons? When these things happen, then your rights will be violated the way mine are. Until then, they're not, and you don't know what rights are.

 

[Autodidact]

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section124:24)
15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be aone flesh.
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is aone spirit.
18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19 What? know ye not that your abody is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your cown?
20 For ye are abought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians6:15 - 20)

about how the HG will not dwell in unclean flesh?

It shall be holy, or the Lord your God will not dwell therein.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section124:24)

How can someone progress, learn anything, come to Christ, without the Holy Spirit? They totally cut themselves off to everything - not just their family - they cut themselves off from the Holy Ghost. They rob themselves of everything... If you love them, how can you sit back not saying anything while they are led down such a destructive path?

I agree. If you love someone, how can you allow them to become a Mormon and not just believe all this ridiculous stuff, but build their life around it! If you love them, how can you sit back and not say anything while they are led down such a destructive path? Well, because it's the right thing to do, that's why.

 

[Autodidact]

Before I joined the Mormon church I was on drugs, in an abusive relashonship, in trouble with the law, ... I will not go into all of the painful details.

Now that I am a member, I have a PhD, a beautiful family, I no longer want to kill myself, my health is wonderful, I am happy.

The Mormon church has not wasted my life - it has saved me.

That's what you think, but I know better, and it's my job to save you. I think I should pass laws against it, don't you? Because if you're doing something I think is wrong, that's my business, don't you agree?

 

[Autodidact]

I was pretty sure that NM is in the US... I was also pretty sure that the boy scouts are in the US...

The state of New Mexico has ordered a family owned photography company to pay more than $6,600 for declining a demand to take pictures at a same-sex ceremony, and a lawyer who is working on an appeal says it is an example of how "non-discrimination" or "hate" laws can be weapons in the hands of homosexual activists.​

Each of the cases listed is in the US except the preacher/Sweeden case.

These cases are relevant.

To Gay marriage? How?

 

[Autodidact]

you think these are public accommodation laws? The adoption agency was a private entity. The photographer - a private business, the boy scouts, privately owned and operated, I am pretty sure the doctor was not working for the gov... These are intrusions on the private sector.

You don't know much about the law, do you? Are you opposed to all anti-discrimination laws, or only those that protect Gay people? Should people be able to fire someone just for being Mormon?

 

[Autodidact]

3 no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians12:3)

The HG comes before faith in Christ. It is only through the Holy Ghost that everything becomes real. Without the HG it is just words, lectures, pictures - it is not real.

Actually, even with the Holy Ghost it's still not real.

 

[Autodidact]

Nothing can be forced on anyone.

Thank goodness!