Why did the world reject the Messiah when He Did come?

[IndigoChild5559]

"Two things may be noted by way of conclusion. First, many rabbinic objections to the messiahship of Jesus are based on his genealogy. The argument goes, “Since Jesus was not a descendant of David through his father, he cannot be Messiah and King.” But the Messiah was supposed to be different. As early as Genesis 3:15, it was proposed that the Messiah would be reckoned after the “seed of the woman,” although this went contrary to the biblical norm. The necessity for this exception to the rule became apparent when Isaiah 7:14 prophesied that the Messiah would be born of a virgin: “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call his name Immanuel.” Whereas all others receive their humanity from both father and mother, the Messiah would receive his humanity entirely from his mother. Whereas Jewish nationality and tribal identity were normally determined by the father, with the Messiah it would be different. Since he was to have no human father, his nationality and his tribal identity would come entirely from his mother. True, this is contrary to the norm, but so is a virgin birth. With the Messiah, things would be different."

The Genealogy of the Messiah • Jews for Jesus

You don't suddenly change Jewish law for exceptions. For example, if a child is born to a woman who will not reveal the identity of the father, the child is born without tribal identity. Also, if an individual converts to Judaism, they are truly a Jew, but they have no tribal affiliation. So not every Jew has tribal affiliation.

Jews for Jesus is a lying organization that presents itself as a place where we can become "completed Jews" but its actual goal is to get us into the churches. You think you can trust them for other things?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You don't suddenly change Jewish law for exceptions. For example, if a child is born to a woman who will not reveal the identity of the father, the child is born without tribal identity. Also, if an individual converts to Judaism, they are truly a Jew, but they have no tribal affiliation. So not every Jew has tribal affiliation.

Jews for Jesus is a lying organization that presents itself as a place where we can become "completed Jews" but its actual goal is to get us into the churches. You think you can trust them for other things?

I see we should love each other under our One God. God is not exclusive with that Love, funny how we fractionalise our Faiths, that are from the One God.

Regards Tony

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I see we should love each other under our One God. God is not exclusive with that Love, funny how we fractionalise our Faiths, that are from the One God.

Regards Tony

It doesn't mean we should not expose organizations that lie.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It doesn't mean we should not expose organizations that lie.

The lie might be owned by our own self. Our perceptions that form our reality may be misguided. God is Love and virtues, if we look for them, that is where we find the Truth.

What we mix with the Truth becomes our distortion, not others.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

Well picked up, no person could crucify Christ.

They crucified Jesus.

The Quran records this accurately.

Regards Tony

Okay. So who crucified Jesus?

 

[firedragon]

I used the king James as it is the one I use mostly, that and the NIV. There are many translations that can be used. Some I would not, as I see the translator had added doctrinal thought.

That aside it is the Spirit I look for in all Holy Books, the Quran and Baha'i writings. When Baha'u'llah says, 'I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been', I do not see that s a literal statement. I see it as an outpouring of spiritual revelation.

There are aspects that tell of material events, but the records are for us to grow spiritually.

Regards Tony

Which parts of the KJV or NIV do you choose? Be precise. The whole thing or parts of it?

 

[firedragon]

No that is not it, I implement the good I find within and ask God for understaning as to what I yet do not.

Regards Tony

So when you say you implement the good in it, you pick what you think is good?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The lie might be owned by our own self. Our perceptions that form our reality may be misguided. God is Love and virtues, if we look for them, that is where we find the Truth.

What we mix with the Truth becomes our distortion, not others.

Regards Tony

Come on Tony. Sometimes things are exactly what they seem. J4J says one thing and does another.

 

[Trailblazer]

Jews for Jesus is a lying organization that presents itself as a place where we can become "completed Jews" but its actual goal is to get us into the churches. You think you can trust them for other things?

No, people who lie cannot be trusted.

Truthfulness is the foundation of all human virtues. Without truthfulness progress and success, in all the worlds of God, are impossible for any soul. When this holy attribute is established in man, all the divine qualities will also be acquired. – Abdu’l-Baha, quoted by Shoghi Effendi in The Advent of Divine Justice, p. 22.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Okay. So who crucified Jesus?

People hell bent on maintaining their power over the minds of men.

The same people that persecuted Muhammad, executed the Bab, persecuted and banished Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Which parts of the KJV or NIV do you choose? Be precise. The whole thing or parts of it?

I have read all the Bible, not studied it in finite detail. Same as the Quran

I now choose to reference the parts that with my understanding show me plainly that Baha'u'llah is the Messiah.

Others will most likely see it in a different light. I spent many hours at one time searching the Bible for passages to show my Born Again Christian mother where Jesus makes it plain that He is Not God, that it is the Spirit of Christ within that matters.

After compiling 6 A4 pages of quotes, I sat down to give it my best shot. But I could not start, there was so many passages I realized it was as plain as day to see, but not if ones reality did not include the possibility of One God for all and that Christ was the Spirit that encompasses all.

My mother was and is blinded by a Name. These are those 6 pages

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So when you say you implement the good in it, you pick what you think is good?

the Love of our One God, shown in;
the Love of all humanity,
Living the virtues reflected in good deeds,
Serving Others in preference to self,
Turning the other cheek,
Prayer.
Fasting,
Peace
Justice
Compassion.....etc

What else does it show? I see that is what the Quran offers as well.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

the Love of our One God, shown in;
the Love of all humanity,
Living the virtues reflected in good deeds,
Serving Others in preference to self,
Turning the other cheek,
Prayer.
Fasting,
Peace
Justice
Compassion.....etc

What else does it show? I see that is what the Quran offers as well.

Regards Tony

Great. So you pick what you like.

 

[firedragon]

I have read all the Bible, not studied it in finite detail. Same as the Quran

I now choose to reference the parts that with my understanding show me plainly that Baha'u'llah is the Messiah.

Others will most likely see it in a different light. I spent many hours at one time searching the Bible for passages to show my Born Again Christian mother where Jesus makes it plain that He is Not God, that it is the Spirit of Christ within that matters.

After compiling 6 A4 pages of quotes, I sat down to give it my best shot. But I could not start, there was so many passages I realized it was as plain as day to see, but not if ones reality did not include the possibility of One God for all and that Christ was the Spirit that encompasses all.

My mother was and is blinded by a Name. These are those 6 pages

View attachment 33679

Regards Tony

There are some passages that makes possible allusions to Jesus being Godly. I appreciate you sharing your personal notes which is a personal matter to you.

Also brother, when I spoke of the bible and asked you regarding it I meant the Bible, not the New Testament alone. What I understand so far is that you pick from a library of books that has 40 to 50 authors, what seems to support you, your likings and your theology.

 

[firedragon]

People hell bent on maintaining their power over the minds of men.

The same people that persecuted Muhammad, executed the Bab, persecuted and banished Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

Who are these "People hell bent on maintaining their power over the minds of men"? Can you be specific?

 

[CG Didymus]

This link CG, the graphs and explanation are there and were available before Abdul'baha gave His talk - William Miller (preacher) - Wikipedia

"...Basing his calculations principally on Daniel 8:14: "Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed", Miller assumed that the cleansing of the sanctuary represented the Earth's purification by fire at Christ's Second Coming. Then, using the interpretive principle of the "day-year principle", Miller (and others) interpreted a day in prophecy to read not as a 24-hour period, but rather as a calendar year. Further, Miller became convinced that the 2,300 day period started in 457 BC with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem by Artaxerxes I of Persia. Simple calculation then revealed that this period would end in 1843. Miller records, "I was thus brought... to the solemn conclusion, that in about twenty-five years from that time 1818 all the affairs of our present state would be wound up."

What he realized later was there was no year Zero, thus the calculation was corrected to 1844.

The other question we can ask is how did Abdul'Baha know that William Miller gave that explanation while in constant exile from Persia to the prison in Akka?

Regards Tony

There is literally absolutely zero reason to begin the 2300 days in Daniel 8 from the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25). In fact, the angel actually interprets the dream, telling Daniel that the vision of the goat in Danile 8 applies to the “king of Greece.” (Daniel 8:21). This absolutely rules out applying it to a decree of Artaxerxes the Persian.

So the correct starting point of the 2300 days is the decree in 457BC to restore and rebuild Jerusalem and not when the Temple was desecrated by Antiochus Epiphanes in 167BC? Hmmm?

Daniel 8:13Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”

14He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”
​

Says nothing about the rebuilding of Jerusalem being the start of the 2300 days. But there's more... This is from Some Answered Questions:

...Daniel refers especially to the third edict which was issued in the year 457 B.C. Seventy weeks make four hundred and ninety days. Each day, according to the text of the Holy Book, is a year. For in the Bible it is said: “The day of the Lord is one year.” 5 Therefore, four hundred and ninety days are four hundred and ninety years. The third edict of Artaxerxes was issued four hundred and fifty-seven years before the birth of Christ, and Christ when He was martyred and ascended was thirty-three years of age. When you add thirty-three to four hundred 41 and fifty-seven, the result is four hundred and ninety, which is the time announced by Daniel for the manifestation of Christ.
​

So 457 plus 33 equals 490? Are you sure? Because that is assuming Jesus was 33 when he was crucified and that he was born in year zero. Was he? Because in another "prophecy", the one about the 666, Baha'is add 5 years to 661 to get to 666 and justify doing that because they say Jesus was born 4-5 years before year zero. Which is it? Doesn't matter. Either way, one of the Baha'i "fulfillments" is wrong. So let's see if Jesus was born in 5BC and died at 33, that makes it less than 490 years by those 5 years. Hmmm? Is that close enough? No, it is not close enough is it. But, I'm sure you have a reasonable explanation. Can't wait to hear it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Who are these "People hell bent on maintaining their power over the minds of men"? Can you be specific?

History has recorded their names.

You keep telling me you have Google and then ask me to supply further information? It is the rulers, it is the clergy who persecute the Messenger they await in every age.

Starting points;

Sanhedrin trial of Jesus - Wikipedia

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/muhammad-completes-hegira

Execution of the Báb - Wikipedia

Banishment from Iran - The Life of Bahá'u'lláh

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So the correct starting point of the 2300 days is the decree in 457BC to restore and rebuild Jerusalem and not when the Temple was desecrated by Antiochus Epiphanes in 167BC? Hmmm?

Daniel 8:13Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”

14He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”
​

Says nothing about the rebuilding of Jerusalem being the start of the 2300 days. But there's more... This is from Some Answered Questions:

...Daniel refers especially to the third edict which was issued in the year 457 B.C. Seventy weeks make four hundred and ninety days. Each day, according to the text of the Holy Book, is a year. For in the Bible it is said: “The day of the Lord is one year.” 5 Therefore, four hundred and ninety days are four hundred and ninety years. The third edict of Artaxerxes was issued four hundred and fifty-seven years before the birth of Christ, and Christ when He was martyred and ascended was thirty-three years of age. When you add thirty-three to four hundred 41 and fifty-seven, the result is four hundred and ninety, which is the time announced by Daniel for the manifestation of Christ.
​

So 457 plus 33 equals 490? Are you sure? Because that is assuming Jesus was 33 when he was crucified and that he was born in year zero. Was he? Because in another "prophecy", the one about the 666, Baha'is add 5 years to 661 to get to 666 and justify doing that because they say Jesus was born 4-5 years before year zero. Which is it? Doesn't matter. Either way, one of the Baha'i "fulfillments" is wrong. So let's see if Jesus was born in 5BC and died at 33, that makes it less than 490 years by those 5 years. Hmmm? Is that close enough? No, it is not close enough is it. But, I'm sure you have a reasonable explanation. Can't wait to hear it.

I offer no more, it's time to let you wait for what you wait for CG.

Regards Tony

 

[wizanda]

My choices and actions are guided by what Baha'u'llah has offered, then I face the quandary of that interpretation.

But I see one obstacle has been removed and that is Baha'u'llah has removed the error of interpretation made in the past.

Our choices, and decisions theologically should be carefully calculated on everything available to us; not one opinion of many...

Then the message isn't veiled, it illuminates its self like dew points in a spiders web; when we see all the droplets the tapestry reveals it self - yet only if we're looking, and listening...

Otherwise the web becomes a trap to us, and we fall into a Snare of our own making; as we comfortably lay in the Bed of Adultery (Isaiah 28:9-21) - not even seeing it is there.

In my opinion.

 

[firedragon]

History has recorded their names.

You keep telling me you have Google and then ask me to supply further information? It is the rulers, it is the clergy who persecute the Messenger they await in every age.

Starting points;

Sanhedrin trial of Jesus - Wikipedia

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/muhammad-completes-hegira

Execution of the Báb - Wikipedia

Banishment from Iran - The Life of Bahá'u'lláh

Regards Tony

Of course I have access to the internet. I am responding to you via the INTERNET. Thus, I can do the google search myself.

Why I insist on your view rather than just a wiki link is because I want to know YOUR VIEW. And now I understand that you have a view, your own theological view and even your google searches are based on your own theological view, not one aimed at doing the research to find out what really happened.

Now if you look at your own comment above, its not an answer to anything. I asked you who actually killed Jesus specifically because of your own proclamation of the killing of Jesus. You have provided a Wiki link that provides the Sanhedrin trial which is specifically the view that you wish to hold on to. So I can vouch to the fact that even your google search was bias. And you have included Bab and Bahaullah in it by hook or crook. I doubt that you could ever have a straightforward conversation without trying your levels best to discard honest research and stick to your agenda. To be honest, I am truly surprised. And let me tell you that you have been proven wrong but you would not wish to know how and why. And to correct your statement "History has recorded their names", you made that up. This is not history. This is faith.

Have a great day. I wish you well.