Why do bad things happen to good people?

[Willamena]

I suppose that addresses the problem of fairness, but I worry that this could create a system that lacks compassion: if a person's suffering is part of some divine process to restore harmony to the universe, then why would we ever try to stand in the way of this by working to relieve that suffering?

Unless we practice relieving suffering (compassion), there is no "process to restore harmony." (d'uh?) "We" are not exempt from the process.

 

[9Westy9]

Then why was the question repeated?


Bruce

To point out the question dodging I can see? I told you that God could restrict our free will to take evil out of the equation. You still haven't answered this question except claimed that God doesn't create evil. So if God didn't create evil where did it come from? The only answer I can see is that another equal and opposite force created it or God himself.

Westy

 

[PolyHedral]

I see. The problem is that "a world with less suffering" doesn't describe a possible world, but this (actual) one.

How can the world contain less suffering than itself?

 

[Willamena]

How can the world contain less suffering than itself?

A very good question. We, with our choices, are not exempt from the world. When we choose less suffering, or when we choose more suffering, the world is that way, here and now.

For instance, the villain points his gun at the helpless heroine and she screams in abject terror. This affords us an opportunity to end her suffering. We tackle the bad guy, relieve him of his gun, and cart him off to jail. Less suffering occurs.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Are human beings ... even capable of perfection?

Definitely, though few attain this!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

I don't presume to say how God might have created a "better" universe, so I'll let that sort of thing to you should you so choose.

Evil was never a "part of Creation" but rather a later human act caused by our own missteps.

In that case, evil would be an inescapable result.

Not at all!

It's eminently avoidable if one lives properly. All we need to do is not make the missteps we clearly sometimes choose to make.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Blackdog22]

I had a question on beliefs surrounding this. A family member of mine was the type of person that would do anything for you, loved helping people, and was basically one of the greatest people I have ever met. She had a quick and surprising medical issue which left her with brain damage. Now she is disabled and must have someone care for her all hours of the day. She was not old and has many years left in her life.

Why would this happen and why to her? Why would God do this to someone? When someone dies everyone says they went to a better place, ok I can accept that but why debilitate someone like this? Also everyone says God works in mysterious ways, but why and what explanation could there be, there is absolutely no good that can come out of this. To me that is just a way of giving an answer without actually giving one.

Does anyone have any insight on this? I have always believed in God, but If it wasn't clear above this event has made me question my faith as I fail to see any positive work from God, I would like to regain the faith I had but will have trouble without understanding.

I had a similiar thing happen to me. My brother was the kindest person I knew, just like your friend. He always helped you out, listened to you, and would be there for you in times of need. He really was the best guy I have ever known. He got a brain tumor that had to be removed and then later was given a stomach disease that caused him such bad hypoglycemia that it caused him further brain damage over a period of 6 years. The doctors couldn't find this disease for 6 years....

We were both very strong Christians and we prayed for God to heal him and nothing happened. What it came down to is our money, insurance, and the doctors diagnosed him, not God. They did what they could for him, God didn't. He still suffers brain damage that God refuses to heal.

The problem with this is that we were Christians. God watched over Noah and his family, he saved the Jews from Egypt, he saved Daniel in the lions den and watched over Jonah while he was in the Whale, Shadrak, Meshak and Obendigo (all spelled wrong I know) weren't burnt because God saved them.... Jesus healed the sick and promised his people would go on to do greater things! If a mountain was to be a moved and a Christ follower believe it enough IT WOULD MOVE!!

The truth is none of this is true. It is a blatant lie that anyone who cares to see truth can see. God doesn't help his people, those stories were just stories. Christians are not doing more than Jesus did, Jesus lied, and wasn't the son of God. We live in a sick, sad world where random things happen to people all the time. We live it the best that we can and sometimes it takes reality hitting us in the face to realize that perhaps the fables we have been fed may not really be what we thought they were.

 

[muslim-]

In Islam, such trials erase sins, as long as the person is patient for God. Its one of the trials and tests of this life. Some people react by thanking God for everything no matter what, others would forget all "good" and just show displeasure with God. So in this way also, its a test.

Sometimes such happenings dont make sense to some who dont believe in the afterlife, and see this life as the goal, and everything. So the problem is really with the way they perceive life. Eternal afterlife means this life is really nothing. Logically, infinity - 9999 trillion = infinity. So 9999 trillion here is pretty much a zero next to the afterlife. Its a fact that we sometimes we understand but cant comprehend (at least in this life) , being the humans we are.

And this is in terms of length only, but similarly, quality of afterlife really makes this world just nothing. So when one really believes, understanding his own belief well, hed always be content. In Islam theres so many texts about such things, promising heaven for those who are patient, and some of the texts are specific even, about blindness etc.

Sadly, we humans tend to think about such things only when something happens to someone they know. As if humanity didnt have suffering before that. Who knows, maybe it would end up being a reason for a person to think, observe, understand life, and become much closer to God in the long run and afterlife?

That said, best wishes to you and your family member.

 

[9Westy9]

still waiting.......

 

[PolyHedral]

In Islam, such trials erase sins, as long as the person is patient for God. Its one of the trials and tests of this life. Some people react by thanking God for everything no matter what, others would forget all "good" and just show displeasure with God. So in this way also, its a test.

Sometimes such happenings dont make sense to some who dont believe in the afterlife, and see this life as the goal, and everything. So the problem is really with the way they perceive life. Eternal afterlife means this life is really nothing. Logically, infinity - 9999 trillion = infinity. So 9999 trillion here is pretty much a zero next to the afterlife. Its a fact that we sometimes we understand but cant comprehend (at least in this life) , being the humans we are.

And this is in terms of length only, but similarly, quality of afterlife really makes this world just nothing. So when one really believes, understanding his own belief well, hed always be content. In Islam theres so many texts about such things, promising heaven for those who are patient, and some of the texts are specific even, about blindness etc.

Sadly, we humans tend to think about such things only when something happens to someone they know. As if humanity didnt have suffering before that. Who knows, maybe it would end up being a reason for a person to think, observe, understand life, and become much closer to God in the long run and afterlife?

That said, best wishes to you and your family member.

So what is the point of life in the first place? You did, after all, just say it is insiginifcant.

 

[uttam]

first try to understand that the word good and bad are relative and both are indespensible part of life.we can not avoid good and bad. we can not live only with day we have to live in night also.actually both good and bad are equal. what makes difference is our understanding. do you think that more money more comfort more wealth make us some good and poverty etc make us bad ? we see so called good people suffer but this is apparent . god is connected to your mind not body. pitamaha vishma happily died with full of injuries in his body. i mean body-ache not necessarily mind-ache . poor people live happily with happy mind only.

 

[9Westy9]

Here's the promised quote:


Chapter 74.

THE NONEXISTENCE OF EVIL

“The true explanation of this subject is very difficult. Know that beings are of two kinds: material and spiritual, those perceptible to the senses and those intellectual.
“Things which are sensible are those which are perceived by the five exterior senses; thus those outward existences which the eyes see are called sensible. Intellectual things are those which have no outward existence but are conceptions of the mind. For example, mind itself is an intellectual thing which has no outward existence. All man's characteristics and qualities form an intellectual existence and are not sensible.
“Briefly, the intellectual realities, such as all the qualities and admirable perfections of man, are purely good, and exist. Evil is simply their nonexistence. So ignorance is the want of knowledge; error is the want of guidance; forgetfulness is the want of memory; stupidity is the want of good sense. All these things have no real existence.
“In the same way, the sensible realities are absolutely good, and evil is due to their nonexistence—that is to say, blindness is the want of sight, deafness is the want of hearing, poverty is the want of wealth, illness is the want of health, death is the want of life, and weakness is the want of strength.
“Nevertheless a doubt occurs to the mind—that is, scorpions and serpents are poisonous. Are they good or evil, for they are existing beings? Yes, a scorpion is evil in relation to man; a serpent is evil in relation to man; but in relation to themselves they are not evil, for their poison is their weapon, and by their sting they defend themselves. But as the elements of their poison do not agree with our elements—that is to say, as there is antagonism between these different elements, therefore, this antagonism is evil; but in reality as regards themselves they are good.
“The epitome of this discourse is that it is possible that one thing in relation to another may be evil, and at the same time within the limits of its proper being it may not be evil. Then it is proved that there is no evil in existence; all that God created He created good. This evil is nothingness; so death is the absence of life. When man no longer receives life, he dies. Darkness is the absence of light: when there is no light, there is darkness. Light is an existing thing, but darkness is nonexistent. Wealth is an existing thing, but poverty is nonexisting.
“Then it is evident that all evils return to nonexistence. Good exists; evil is nonexistent.”
— Some Answered Questions, pp. 282-284

Peace,

Bruce

Thanks for clearing up why you haven't replied yet. I appreciate it.

All the dualities work both ways. Light can be called the absence of darkness, Poverty the absence of wealth and evil the absence of good. Can a good creator allow for an absence of good in his creation? Of course you could say that everything is good in god's eyes. Just means you can't justify anything as objectively evil. Also you can say that light exists. We know that light is a particle and is material and that darkness is merely the absence of said particle(s). Good however doesn't physically exist and neither does Evil. Unless a 'good particle' has been discovered?

Westy

 

[BruceDLimber]

All the dualities work both ways.... We know that light is a particle and is material and that darkness is merely the absence of said particle(s).

In fact, no!

Light and dark form the ideal analogy for this proof because it's possible to bring light into a dark room but not dark into a light room.

Thus the existence of light and the nonexistence of dark as a "thing" is proven.

And I maintain that the presence/absence of the other pairs of traits similarly makes better sense--and is far more useful--than the reversed ones you mentioned.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[PolyHedral]

In fact, no!

Light and dark form the ideal analogy for this proof because it's possible to bring light into a dark room but not dark into a light room.

Thus the existence of light and the nonexistence of dark as a "thing" is proven.

And I maintain that the presence/absence of the other pairs of traits similarly makes better sense--and is far more useful--than the reversed ones you mentioned.

Peace,

Bruce

You still haven't answered what "absolute evil" is.

 

[9Westy9]

In fact, no!

Light and dark form the ideal analogy for this proof because it's possible to bring light into a dark room but not dark into a light room.

Thus the existence of light and the nonexistence of dark as a "thing" is proven.

And I maintain that the presence/absence of the other pairs of traits similarly makes better sense--and is far more useful--than the reversed ones you mentioned.

Peace,

Bruce

Unfortunately you can bring good into an evil area and evil into a good area. It just doesn't work that way.

But they are both just as valid

Westy

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Unfortunately you can bring good into an evil area and evil into a good area. It just doesn't work that way.

But they are both just as valid

Westy

No, they're not.

If light was just the absence of dark, then there would be such a thing as maximal brightness: keep on "removing dark" and when you get to a certain point you could not get any brighter because there would be no more dark to take away... but in reality, light doesn't work this way. You could never reach a point of absolute brightness.

However, it does work in the opposite direction: you can have absolute darkness. If you managed to create an environment with no photons (theoretically... in practical terms, it may be impossible), it would be absolutely dark.

Edit: that's why I asked Bruce for an example of "absolute evil" earlier in the thread. If evil really is simply the absence of good the way that cold is the absence of heat, then just as we can point to -273.15 degrees Celsius and say "this is absolute zero; it's impossible to get colder than that", we should be able to point at something on the "good/evil" spectrum and say "this is absolute evil; it's impossible for something to be more evil than this."

 

[PolyHedral]

If light was just the absence of dark, then there would be such a thing as maximal brightness: keep on "removing dark" and when you get to a certain point you could not get any brighter because there would be no more dark to take away... but in reality, light doesn't work this way. You could never reach a point of absolute brightness.

(Well, there si the point where the energy density gets so high that it collapses into a black hole, but that's somewhat beside the point.)

 

[9Westy9]

No, they're not.

If light was just the absence of dark, then there would be such a thing as maximal brightness: keep on "removing dark" and when you get to a certain point you could not get any brighter because there would be no more dark to take away... but in reality, light doesn't work this way. You could never reach a point of absolute brightness.

However, it does work in the opposite direction: you can have absolute darkness. If you managed to create an environment with no photons (theoretically... in practical terms, it may be impossible), it would be absolutely dark.

Edit: that's why I asked Bruce for an example of "absolute evil" earlier in the thread. If evil really is simply the absence of good the way that cold is the absence of heat, then just as we can point to -273.15 degrees Celsius and say "this is absolute zero; it's impossible to get colder than that", we should be able to point at something on the "good/evil" spectrum and say "this is absolute evil; it's impossible for something to be more evil than this."

Theoretically, you can have something that is absolute brightness. If the light is coming from all directions and there is only 1 object it would cast no shadow. There would be no darkness. Likewise with absolute darkness. If you 'turned off' all forms of light you would only have darkness. As for hot and cold you might have a point. Not sure there is anything known as absolute heat. although we do have something which is hottest (to our current knowledge) What is the hottest thing in the universe.

Of course we're talking about material things here. Good and evil aren't material, therefore how can we know the same rules apply to them. Especially when people can't even agree on good and evil

 

[PolyHedral]

Theoretically, you can have something that is absolute brightness. If the light is coming from all directions and there is only 1 object it would cast no shadow. There would be no darkness.

But the room can still be made brighter.

Good and evil aren't material, therefore how can we know the same rules apply to them.

Light isn't material. :sarcastic

 

[9Westy9]

But the room can still be made brighter.

How? :O

Light isn't material. :sarcastic

It can act as a wave and a particle no?