Isn't your position also that humanity is superstitious and made up a load of gods (all but one, specifically)?
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Why do Christians accuse other religions of believing in false prophets?
- Thread starter loverofhumanity
- Start date
"Even though there are different sources for parts of teh Pentateuch"
That (ABOVE) -- is the Documentary Hypothesis .. and it is not impossible to separate sources .... perhaps impossible to do it perfectly, but -- for example where the name YHWH is used prior to Moses .. we know - at least the word YHWH - is the hand of a redactor writing after the 6th Century BC. Couple this with the the two separate and contradictory Creation Stories --- Written in different styles .. with conflicting theme in the first Story the YHWH never shows up .. Then .. right at the beginning of Creation Story 2 .. YHWH shows up as the Lead.
The only way the text makes sense is if these are two different Traditions -- the redactor had both .. and kept Both ... the reason keeping the first one is because Everyone knows this Story and the background to the Story in 500 BC -- Whats more is they also know how YHWH is connected and fits into the Divine Pantheon.
Regardless .. NO - it is not just Liberal Theologeans who realize that the Pentateuch does not have one author .. that there are different Traditions ... many different authors over many centuries .. this then spliced together at some point. It is every serious Theologian and Bible Scholar.. the fundamentalist extremists being the lone holdout. ... and their arguments are nonsense.
and NO - just because a group of people put all these writings together at a later date .. does not mean the Bible is all Fiction .. What it does mean is that in places there is some artistic license .. or what we could call "Theological Bias" which is normal and expected.
Does this mean the Bible is not Perfect .. YES ... and only the wingnut Fundamentalists do not recognize that the Bible is not 100% God Breathed .. people totally incapable of logic and rational thought .. in viceral denial of the obvious.
It is not a black and white issue.. but black vs white Dogma is the hallmark of a weak foundation .. and of a destructive cult
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As does the Appearance of Many other Divinities ... Azaz-EL .. Satan - "Sons of the Most High" - Sons of the Elohim - and of course Angels .. though of lesser stature than the former Divinities .. explicitly Acknowledge the belief in other Gods Henotheism ... but not necessarily the worship of these other Gods "polytheism"
and really .. if not "Other Gods" What would YHWH be Jealous of ? speaking of Which .. in addition to the Lesser Gods .. There are a number of "Most High" condenders in the Bible.
The Anthropomorphic God varients .. such as YHWH when in Anthropo -- is part of a Pantheon. It is only after the Babylonian exile -- Israel and Judah wiped off the map .. during the Persian Period that Judaism adopts Monotheism .. this God is no longer Anthropo -- but primordial God -- like Ahura Mazda -- first God like this we know of ... and was very popular in Persia -- "Go Figure" as the Jews adopted everything Persian into their new God ---
Aother contender of the Anthropo Variety .. is the God of Abraham .. which is EL .. Chief God of the Canaanite and Phoenician Pantheon.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
For me, all the Abrahamic religions based their beliefs off of the Hebrew Bible but took off in tangents from there. But is the Bible true and is it real history, or is it made up myths and stories? If it's not true, then what are they basing their beliefs on? It seems like it's just the myths and beliefs of the Jewish people. But they each, the Christians, Muslims and Baha'is, adapt it and change it to fit their beliefs.
Plus, they each take the beliefs of the previous religion and change and adapt those beliefs to fit their beliefs also. So, by the time we get to the Baha'is, they have taken Judaism, Christianity and Islam and adapted them all to fit their beliefs. But, very possibly, they all started with things that weren't true but were made up myths. But each of them claims they have the real truth from this God and that all the earlier religions, Judaism, then Christianity, then Islam, and now the Baha'is, have gotten off a little with superstitious, made-up beliefs.
What a mess... They are true, but the previous ones aren't completely true.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
You think that, because you do not acknowledge that God exists.
If you thought that God existed, you would then think that God had sent a series of messengers to mankind,
to guide them.
God was known by Adam and many others before Moses came along..
Adam has nothing to do with the children of Israel .. they did not exist back then!
Wrong. It acknowledges that people worship "false gods" .. idols .. created beings, and not the Creator of
the universe.
No, I think that because I've read the Bible.
It's fine if you think the ancient Israelites were wrong for being henotheists, but this doesn't change the fact that they were henotheists.
It does? Let's look:
"I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
"You shall have no other gods before me.
Can you just highlight where you see the word "false" in there? I can't seem to find it.
Exactly - The Israelites and Uncle Abe Believed in the Existence of a Divine Pantheon .. Abe's idea was to Worship only one .. The Top Dawg .. "Most High" "God Supreme" and the High God during Abe's time was "EL"
How will you know the atributes of a God of the Bible .. if you don't know the name of the God you are referring to.... can't distinguish one from the other.. which would show that you don't think attributes are important .. As the Attributes of YHWH are completely different from that of the God of Jesus.. or the God of the Jews for that matter.
but given your claim -- YHWH is depicted as a flip flopping Irrational God .. says one thing one day .. the next the complete opposite .. This God is a xenophobic Genocidal Maniac with the most petty and Nasty of Human flaws..
If you love this God .. clearly "attributes" are not important ... that or ... <lets not even go there>
Twirling around crying "Wrong Wrong Wrong" -- giving no support for claim -- is not an argument for much Brother Muhamu - assumed premise fallacy at best.
You are the one who is "Wrong" -- according to Theological Scholarship .. and well .. general English Language usage. NO Gods Before me .. is different than saying .. "Don't worship False Gods" .. the best place you could ever hope to get is "We don't know what God meant with absolute Certainty"
When we then step back and look at surrounding context -- "I am a Jealous God" .. kind of ridiculous to be Jealous of Humans .. there is nothing to be Jealous of. YHWH acknowledges other Gods in this way as well
but if you want more directly YHWH orders the Sacrifice to the God Azaz-EL .. -- so YHWH believes that other Gods exist .. even if you don't. This being just one example of YHWH acknowledging other Gods directly .
YHWH believes in the existence of God's and "Divinities" other than himself .. Why then not You ?
Brian2
Veteran Member
A redactor would have inserted YHWH unless Ex 6:3 is not the usual translation we have in our English Bibles as @dybmh tells us and which I have also heard from other sources.
But nobody knows anything about it being "after 6th century BC"
As I said things like the 2 creation stories it seems is just the way things were written in that time and there are examples given in the video and the other link.
But when it comes to those 2 stories, the 2nd is not even a creation story anyway, it is just a more detailed account of the creation of man. The other things created were just for the man, not as a first time God did it,,,,,,,,,,,,,, imo
No their arguments aren't nonsense, and it is those who say that who are the ones who hold black vs white Dogma.
Maybe the wingnut fundamentalists are a problem and border on cultish at times but they are probably our brothers and sisters nonetheless.
But after the video you should realise that European theologians are rejecting the DH quite a bit.
Last century I think the DH was taught in theological colleges and for some reason accepted but it really has been seen that it is not a good explanation for those things we see in the Bible.
??? A redactor would have inserted YHWH unless Ex 6:3 is not the usual translation we have in our English Bibles""???
This does not make any sense. The English Language did not exist in 500BC .. nor an English Bible. His decision to use the Tetragrammon YHWH - in place of some general Word for God .. may or may not have happened .. he may be using an older document where someone else writing the story ,, or transmuting from oral History .. just substitutes the word YHWH for "Supreme God" or some such thing. .. again having zero to do with our English Translation - whether or not it is Usual or correct.
But - aside from the big mistake in logic - you are missing the play completely Friend. The point is that you have two Traditions .. not one tradition where part of it is later changed. You have Two Stories that have come down to the later redactors .. who then rather than pick one over the other .. just put them side by side .. in an attempt to give reader more information .. something the reader at the time would have been able to make sense of.
"THAT" is the perspective by which the material MUST be assessed -- The Perspective of the Person Reading the Story .. in 1XXX BC -- not the perspective of someone reading the English Bible in 2023AD. What did they think.. not what You Think.
Your claim that there are not two creation stories.. is purile ignorance/ Disingenuous Oblivion ... and this has nothing to do with Liberal Secularism. The Church has recognized this feature of Genesis for thousands of Years .. that one story is interwoven into the other ... that the same things are covered .. (such as the creation of Man) - in some times similar but some times different angles - sometimes contradicting.
This is horse you are trying to ride is completely dead .. Crucified - Buried .. so please don't be foolish and try to dig it back up.
I think all people should remain in truth and love. Religions are not necessary truth, nor about love and perhaps the whole idea of religion is leading people away from truth and love.
Quran says:
“…The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah… …believe in Allah and His messengers…”
Quran 4:171, Surat An-Nisa' [4:171] - The Noble Qur'an - القرآن الكريم
So, maybe we all should believe Jesus, as told in the Quran.
I think crucial thing is, what people say. If they say something good, I think that can be accepted.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
What???
"no other gods" does not imply that they are real .. in the sense that they have created anything or have some kind of power.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
This just means that you do not have accurate religious knowledge..
..from the Bible, or any other source.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
Again, you show your ignorance of the first commandment.
Loving man-made gods [idols] is the meaning of "being jealous" in this context.
It is much like explanations of hell, where G-d says He will "punish people"
Most people understand that ignoring G-d, and following some other path
leads to disaster.
It is not that G-d [as a person] purposely tortures anybody,
beacuse G-d is NOT a person.
dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
This sounds like an admission that there is NO evidence for the claim that Abe's god was EL. Finally. Wow, that took a loooong time. It's all, guessing, assuming, and ingnoring the actual differences in the names.
Of course, it makes no sense to change YHWH in all those places in Genesis and NOT make a change to Exodus 6:3. And this ignores all the good reasons to understand Exodus 6:3 as meaning something other than you have repeatedly asserted.
It makes far more sense to consider there are multiple traditions joined in the scroll. But, there aren't multiple traditions of Abe in the scroll. Just 1.. And there aren't multiple traditions of Zach in the scrolls. Just 1. And there aren't multiple traditions of Jake in the scrolls. Just 1.
So what's with the certainty? The tradition in the scrolls is consistent that Abe's god, Zach's god, and Jake's god was YHWH. ALL of them used the name verbally. Abe spoke it. Zach named a well after it. Jake called in YHWH's name.
For Exo 6:3, there's so many examples showing that K-N-O-W-I-N-G the name YHWH is not literally knowing hw it is pronounced and speaking it. There's many examples where this is an expression of intimate direct and total experience. Not to mention computer analysis of the text has annihilated the JEPD, sources and resolved it into simply a Priestly/Non-Priestly binary. And Exo 6:3 belongs, according to this non-biased linguitic method, with Gen 15 and the other stories with the name YHWH being used by the 3 patriarchs.
Hopefully you're ready to settle back into the more moderate and appropriate conclusion which is, it is much more likely that Abe knew YHWH by that name. And that you are simply misnderstanding ALL those translations in the same way. Yes, most of those translations are false in one way or another. The NETBible which you trust adds the word "by" in the phrase "by the name YHWH". That would be adding the letter "bet" to the hebrew as a prefix. That prefix is used in the verse just a few words back, "B'Ail Shaddai". So consistency would suggest that if the "bet-prefix" ( "by the name YHWH" ) was intended, it would be written that way.
But they're not all wrong. Meaning, they don't get the entire translation wrong. But you are interpretting them all wrong in the same way. Please confirm that you are ready to admit there are no verses that support the idea of Abe's god being EL so we can move on. Even if Abe didn't literally know the name YHWH, that doesn' default back to the canaanite god EL. EL is a preposition. The closest you can get is Ail, but that's just guessing and ignoring the many many verses that have Abe saying YHWH and simultanesouly ignoring that there are NO verses having Abe use the name Ail.
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dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Not by the patriarchs, not by Moses. But yeah, it did not become a way of life for the nation until much later. That's the story, and I think archeology supports it.
This actually threw me for a minute. I'd never heard of this as the first of the ten. I learned it as the second. Turns out, Jews and Catholics number the commandments differently. I never knew that. And it makes a big difference.
Sure, but you're missing it in the english. It's the first words. It's not "I am the LORD"... that would be "Ahnee YHWH". It's actually written "Ahnohchee YHWH"
"Ahnee" =/= "Ahnohchee"
A better translation would be "I am the one and only Eternal God." From this introduction, it follows that the "elohim achairim" the "other-gods" are just idols. At best they're angels. But really, what you have up there in the quote is just the first part of the 2nd in the 10. remember, there's no punctuation in the original. So, once the remainder of the 2nd statement is included... bippity-boppity-boo, @muhammad_isa was right! And that's going to be true most often when conversing with a Muslim on monotheism.
Below is a very good reliable source on the 10 commandments. Notice how they're numbered. Also notice that the 2nd is introduced by the idea "no-other-gods before me", but the entire command is about idol worship. And this makes sense when looking at other statements about putting away "strange-gods" ( examples: Gen 35, 1 Sam 7 ). A hyper-literal understanding of the idea "no other gods before me" doesn't make sense. It can't be literal. As I said to @Sargonski, no one can literally lasso an "other-god" and place it before YHWH. There are no "other-god-traps" baited with virgins for capturing these "other-gods". And just a tiny bit later in the story, an example of the transgression is brought in the famous golden-calf episode. If you read it carefully, you'll see that literally the golden calf is put before an altar to YHWH.
Anyway... Muhammad_isa was correct. The verse you quoted is referring to false gods and idols. It's important to remember that the group amassed at the mountain were not just israelites. They were a mixed multitude including egyptians. The majority probably did at one point believe in other gods, but they got a rather loud wake-up call with the plagues and the revelation at sinai. Not that everyone converted, or that this conversion stuck. For the ones who believed in these other-gods, they got downgraded to subservient angels. For the ones who used literal idols, those are prohibitted as well. And the entire 2nd commandment equates these two ideas. Angels and idols are false gods. And this phrase "Ahnohchee YHWH your God" is repeated inside the 2nd commandment as well. So it's definitely in the verses. These "other-gods" are nothing. I am the one and only Eternal God, YOUR God.
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muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
Yes .. exactly.
the only ignorance on display here -- of the first command ---and of the Israelites in general .. cause this is about what they thought .. not what you think .. and of the Bible in general .. YHWH himself believing in Other Gods .. but did not want his people to worship those other Gods --- is yours friend.
Did you miss the part about YHWH's belief in other Gods .. and the Israelites belief in other Gods .. and YHWH's battles with the other Son's of God.
YHWH states there are to be no other Gods before him .. not that there are no other Gods ..
"Most people understand that Ignoring God, and following some other Path Leads to Disaster"
You would know first hand .. of this truth .. I won't speak for other People. Why do you persist on Ignoring the God of Jesus .. knowing where this path leads.. persist in the heresy told you previously ... which you ignored .. your heretical behavior .. likely forgotten what it is already .. as you did not respond...
but - now it seems .. you wish to project your failings onto others "Most People" -- perhaps because Misery loves Company ? but what do I know .. could be a host of reasons .. none of which make logical sense .. but quite common and natural for those aflicted with SMCT ... a triggered response .. of the "Thought Stopping" variety .. but again .. what do I know ... just because someone has a runny nose don't mean they have Covid .. if ya know what I mean.
So yes .. The dark path to disaster .. why do you willfully persist ignoring God .. Disingenuous Oblivion more than Ignorance though ...
Yes .. exactly.
Yeah Muhamu .. Thats it .. Lets just make stuff up and pretend like that is what the Bible Says .. Yes Exactly
No Muhamu --- that is not the Path to "The Truth - The Way - The Light" .. do not so easy a follower be Friend ..
Why are you jumping in a post to another -- with a made up falsehood -- pretending I said No evidence for Abe's God Being EL - rather than responding to my post to you on this topic . The one whereyour ridiculous claim that Abe knew his God by the name YHWH was crucified .. You end up calling YHWH a Liar .. then trying to misinterpret and twist scripture to try to hide the lie.
Sorry mate -- there is a reason Modern Theological Scholarship states that the "Most High" God of Abe was EL .. and that even if this is wrong .. and it is some other High God --- that the name of this God was not YHWH.
Now you can cry and hollar all you like .. but no need to demonize the messenger for telling you what Modern Theological Scholarship states .. and you can run and hide from the crucifixion .. but this is not going to erase the Holes ?