Why do Christians accuse other religions of believing in false prophets?

[dybmh]

What a mindless babble of denial friend. You did not even address the passage under question... Wailing and crying about some hundred other passages .. that supposedly support your raging nonsense.

I know. That was the point. You are claiming all YOU need to do is drop a chapter and verse and ignore it's content, context, and relevance. These are YOUR standards. They are Stupid standards. That was the point. I hope you get the point.

If you bring a verse it needs to be Abe. It needs to be Abe saying the name EL. OK. Those are 2 conditions. I've already searched myself, and I am confident there are NO verses that meet those very simple 2 conditions.

El Supreme .. I gave you the Hebrew script .. the Passage Gen 14:18 and now you are running from that.

No, dude, no. That is irrelevant. It's not Abe. Abe says his God is YHWH 4 verses later. And Abe is not speaking in verse 18. Not speaking in verse 19, not speaking in any of the verses until verse 22 where it says his God is YHWH. You cannot use anything in chapter 14. Nothing. Abe says his god's name. And that name is YHWH,

If you want to die on the Gen14 hill. I will happily repost this verse at you 100s of times.

ויאמר אברם אל־מלך סדם הרמתי ידי אל־יהוה אל עליון קנה שמים וארץ׃​

​

And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lifted up my hand to YHWH, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,​

Key words: Abe. YHWH.

See that. You need to a quote with Abe saying the name EL.

Now stop claiming that you were not given any passages

You need to quote Abe saying the name EL.

.. continuing this worthless lie .. in a desperate attempt to avoid addressing your claims

I gave you evidence. You need to quote Abe saying the name EL.

.. now which include claiming that YHWH is a liar

Nope. the verb is in reflexive. Abe knew the name YHWH. The verse is talking about FULLY knowing YHWH. Abe knew the name YHWH.

You need to quote Abe saying the name EL.

.. that the 3 Passages from different Bibles of Exodus 6:3 are a lie....

They are probably adding words to the verses. You don't have the skills and knowledge to recognize when words are being added. And you don't seem to be able to copy/paste/compare your own interlinear translation.

Again, it is not the name which is unknown. Abe knew the name. The verse is not saying the name was not known. There are several indicators of this. The Nun prefix on the verb. The Bet prefix on the word Ail, and the vav prefix on the word Sh'mi.. I already brought explanations of these grammar issues.

I also brought a peer-reviewed journal article.

What you seem to be asking is: "Why does the english translation not fit with the rest of the times when Abe obviously and clealry uses the name YHWH?"

The answer is, sometimes the engish translations do not capture what is actually intended. When this happens instead of taking the one verse and imagining a highly implausible conspiracy theory where a redactor went and changed and added YHWH everywhere, but left in this one verse ( exodus 6:3 ) that makes the conspiracy obvious... look to the original language. Consult with experts who know Hebrew. I can show you where to go for this information. Then you can read it yourself.

The reason that scholars do not have this information is not because it doesn't exist, nor that it is not credible. It's because they actively avoid it. They do not want expert opinion.

The reason that many english Christian bibles do not have this information is that most of them are sourced from the KJV. So they are mostly copying from each other. The NIV is somewhat original. It's not without problems. None of them are without problems.

The solution? When there is a single verse that seems out of place, or out of character, always check with Hebrew experts. Look for Jewish commentary, just to see what they say.

In this case what they are saying, what is said makes sense. The verb is in the reflexive. YHWH's name was known, but YHWH's reputation was not fully known because the covenant that was made to Abe, Zach, and Jake was not fullfilled. And that fits beautifully in with the context. Problem solved.

People have been reading this verse every year. People basically have the Torah memorized. Do you actually think something like this would be ignored? The expert opinions I brought had encyclopedic knowledge of scripture without the internet, without any tools that we have today. They were geniuses. Much much more reliable than any of the so-called scholars who actively avoid these experts for personal reasons.

which is exactly what you are claiming stating Abe knew his God as YHWH.

No. I'm claiming that this happens sometimes. The english translations cannot be trusted. If there is a problem. Go back to the original language. Consult experts in the language. No the scholars you are using are not experts or else they would be alerting you of the grammar issues and that YHWH's name was known to Abe and the others.

Now tells us what the Asherah Pole was for .. if not the worship of Asherah .. support your claim using what the Bible Says ... and burp up your your other claim .. which has now turned into a worthless lie.. no longer a mistake .. but indentional deceit .. as those of the darkside are wont to engage.

I would be happy to discuss tha once this issue with Abe is resolved.

Gen 14:18 is a fail. It's not Abe speaking. And when Abe DOES speak, guess which name he uses? it's YHWH.

Thought Stopping -- SMCT --- Did you understand those concepts mate ? since you don't want to talk about the Bible .. other than to Call YHWH a Liar... and then go into denial ...

You keep using this acronym. I don't know what it is.

Sargonski Must Continue To..... repeat failed arguments?

Anyway.

Psalms 82? nope
Deut 32? nope
Gen 14? nope
Gen 17? nope

Do you have any verses that support the claim that Abe's god was EL?

Nothing you've brought works.

 

[Sargonski]

It's wrong and you have not shown me the error of this claim.
I'll just be impolite and offer you a couple of sites which show errors in the Documentary Hypothesis and that there is plenty of anti Documentary Hypothesis views in Biblical scholarship.

Documetary Hypothesis and Biblical Criticism

The Documentary Hypothesis must be abandoned. Regardless of one’s theological presuppositions, we must recognize the hypothesis to be methodologically unsound.

biblearchaeology.org

You don't know what you are talking about .. As per your link .. it is not disputed that there are different sources by many different authors over a long period of Time that make up the bible .. including the Pentatuch.

Some of the speculations in the "Classical DH" have fallen out of favor .. but no serious Theologian thinks Moses wrote the first 5 Book .. Not even the Bible .. which writes about things that happen after the death of Moses.

Did you not watch your own link or do you just not understand what is being said to you ?

 

[Sargonski]

I know. That was the point. You are claiming all YOU need to do is drop a chapter and verse and ignore it's content, context, and relevance. These are YOUR standards. They are Stupid standards. That was the point. I hope you get the point.

Running around crying No NO NO ... "Fail Fail Fail" and not addressing the topic .. is not an argument for much .. and quit projecting your failings onto me.. as you are the one ignoring content .. by your own admission above "I Know" admitting that you don't respond to the Bible passages being discussed. This is hardcore deflection and denial Brother D.. "Thought Stopping" .. due to a SMCT response.


Exodus 6:3 --- one of the passages you have been lying about .. from 4 different Bibles. What part of "ABE does not know his God by the name YHWH" Do you not understand ?

New Living Translation
I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as El-Shaddai—‘God Almighty’—but I did not reveal my name, Yahweh, to them.

English Standard Version
I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty, but by my name the LORD I did not make myself known to them.


King James Bible
And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

New King James Version
I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name LORD I was not known to them.

 

[Muffled]

And what about the father son and HS? What are they in relationship to this one God?

I believe I just told you it is the one God in different places with the added dimension of a connection to human minds.

 

[Muffled]

You see things differently to me..
You judge everything by "names of god(s)", whereas I see that language varies between civilisations,
and it is not so much the name, as the concept.

I believe names carry concepts. For instance AYAH - I am the one who is. Since all else were created only God can say that.

 

[Muffled]

I gave you the correct Translation El Supreme --- and gave you the source .. and the Source Bible. .. and a link to the highly reputable translation site that has been around for decades

YOu running around crying NO NO NO .. Mistranslation .. without bothering to provide any support for claim .. failing even to state what the translation should be .. is not an argument for anything .. a complete fail ..

The God of Abraham was El Supreme .. the Most High El Elyon .. or Al Elyon .. makes Absolutely no difference ..

but what how are you wishing to translate this passage .. and from what Bible .. and do provide link like I did. This should be a chuckle.

I believe el is not a name but is the word for god and that could be any god. The only way we know which one it is, the context tells us.

 

[dybmh]

You don't know what you are talking about .. As per your link .. it is not disputed that there are different sources by many different authors over a long period of Time that make up the bible .. including the Pentatuch.

Some of the speculations in the "Classical DH" have fallen out of favor .. but no serious Theologian thinks Moses wrote the first 5 Book .. Not even the Bible .. which writes about things that happen after the death of Moses.

Did you not watch your own link or do you just not understand what is being said to you ?

But.... the other link... not the video, confirms what I've been saying about Exodus 6:3. Did you read it? You should. I know, I know, you;re proabably more into watching vids, but take a break for that and read the link. It tells you all about the DH, and why the cut-and-paste method it employs is a total fail.

It's not that the Torah doesn't have multiple sources, ( Although I disagree with that as well ), it's that there are not 4 sources with different gods. And there wasn't some redactor(s) who went through and removed E-source content, and changed J-source content, etc... And that's what your theory about Abe requires.

 

[dybmh]

Running around crying No NO NO ... "Fail Fail Fail" and not addressing the topic .. is not an argument for much .. and quit projecting your failings onto me.. as you are the one ignoring content ..

No, I'm not ignoring anything. I have brought multiple verses that show Abe literally saying the name YHWH. You have brought none. And I have explained why Exodus 6:3 is misunderstood and brought scholarship showing it.

The next source I'm be bringing is the BDB lexicon which confirms that the phrase "but my name YHWH, was I not know to them." Is indeed talking about YHWH's reputation. So, youre not only arguing against Biblical Hebrew experts, and peer-reviewed scholarship, ut you're also arguing with the lexicon. And I keep finding more and more academic sources that agree with me. You haven't brought a single source that agrees with you on Exodus 6:3, certainly none that are addressing these grammatical issues.

I know you can't read Hebrew, and I doubt you can use a lexicon, and sadly I'm very busy today, and heading into the Sabbath. So I won't be able to spend much time on this today. But I'll just tell you that the top box is the word "Shaim" that's the word that is being translated as "name" in Exodus 6:3. It does translate to "name", but it also describes "reputation" which is the second blue box. And look at all those examples.

I'll also throw this in here. Several of the academic sources I'm finding speaking of the proper understanding of Exo 6:3 are referring back to this person:

Francis Andersen - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

So, there's good scholarship backing me up. What do you have other than, "but the english I see says..."

by your own admission above "I Know" admitting that you don't respond to the Bible passages being discussed. This is hardcore deflection and denial Brother D.. "Thought Stopping" .. due to a SMCT response.

Hee. You are still missing the point. I was making fun of YOUR low standards and that YOU are ignoring content and relevance. And I was pointing out that if a person lowers their standards like this, then it's ridiculous. i was not admitting to not responding. I was admitting that what I said was ridiculous and that was the point because what you;re saying permits these sorts of ridiculous statements.

Now, you keep asking me to repeat. I will not repeat a previous answer on a seperate subject. Nor will I move on to somethign new, until you have either brought a verse that supports the claim that Abe's god was EL, or admit you have none.

Nothing you have brought is about Abe! Nothing! You simply cannot find a relevant verse.

Exodus 6:3 --- one of the passages you have been lying about

No, not at all.

reflexive verb is true
it's about YHWH's reputation is true
multiple sources agree with me it true

YOU have brought nothing refuting any of this... is super-duper-true.

.. from 4 different Bibles.

They are probably all quoting the same source. So, it's not 4 bibles, it's just 1 bible repeating the same flawed translation. It's probably adding words since the last time you brought a translation, it was adding words.

What part of "ABE does not know his God by the name YHWH" Do you not understand ?

He did know the name YHWH, said it multiple times. He did not say EL.

And the longer this goes on, the more sources I'm bringing. Anyone can see the trend. I'm bringing more and more sources. And you have brought none.

Clearly you're losing this. YHWH's REPUTATION was not fully known. YHWH's name was known by Abe.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I believe I just told you it is the one God in different places with the added dimension of a connection to human minds.

Won't answer the question. Got it.

 

[Sargonski]

I believe el is not a name but is the word for god and that could be any god. The only way we know which one it is, the context tells us.

Your belief is false -- least with respect to the Name Part - the context of conversation.

"EL" is not a Name ???????

Where do you come up with this belief ... or perhaps you have miss-spoken .. lets go with that.

EL is first and foremost - "A NAME" and in fact "THE NAME" .. on everyone's lips from Abraham To Solomon and beyond.

Everyone .. and anyone who has any connection to society at large .. Throughout the world knows the Name EL (Elil , Enlil) - and know that EL is the Most HIgh God ... of the entire Near East .. Phonecians - Israelites - Assyrians - Babylonians - Amorites - Ammonites-Philistines ... all believe in El as the Most High .. Head of the Divine Council .. Big Kahuna of the various Pantheons

Over time ... the word EL became synonomous with God in Language Usage .. the big guy up in the Sky. First however through Epithets related to EL EL Elyon = God Most High .. but this God is EL EL Shaddai .. EL Oliun EL=Supreme

At the time of Abe EL is not likely being used as a General Term for God.

You did get correct that context Tells us... something.. .. such as When MelchiZedek - Canaanite Priest King and Abe offer sacrifices to "El Supreme" -- most often translated as "Most High" in modern Bibles .. trying to increase the ambiguity - a funciton of translater bias ..

Either way ... the name of this particulare "Most High" --- is EL .. as Abe does not Worship a God by name YHWH .. and nor does the Canaanite High Preist.. The Cannanite High Priese "Most High" .. is EL Chief of his Pantheon .. nad in somewhat of a Trinity with the Twin Gods Zedek .. Patron God of Salem - (Jerusalem) at the time.

 

[Sargonski]

No, I'm not ignoring anything. I have brought multiple verses that show Abe literally saying the name YHWH. You have brought none. And I have explained why Exodus 6:3 is misunderstood and brought scholarship showing it.

YHWH is mentioned in the verse .. never stated otherwise .. but this does not change the fact that YHWH states that Abe did not know him by the name YHWH.

What part of this are you having trouble understanding ? " I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as El-Shaddai—‘God Almighty’—but I did not reveal my name, Yahweh, to them."

and you wish to claim this is a false Translation .. and insert the adverb Fully .. .. which doesn't make any sense in the sentence .. but doesn't change the fact that YHWH's name was not revealed to ABE .

What difference would inserting the word Fully .. which is a total joke but let us humor the clowns over at the NIV ? Did YHWH only reveal one of the letters of his name to ABE ? .. not his full name ?

Either way ... the "EL Supreme" that Abe and MelchiZedek are worshiping is not named YHWH ..

and you have brought no "scholarship" showing that "Fully" is the correct translation .. and even if you had .. you are claiming the 10 other Bible Translations are False ... You have demonstrated that you do not know what "Scholarship" means"

Your claim that "I did not reveal My Name Yahweh, to them" should read " I did not reveal my Reputation YHWH to them"

is completely idiotic false nonsense on Biblical Steriods .. absolute dumb and dumber from one of thos Snake Charmer fundimentalist apologist web sites.


But -- for giggles .. do back up this latest made up nonsense of yours.

 

[dybmh]

Your belief is false -- least with respect to the Name Part - the context of conversation.

"EL" is not a Name ???????

Nope, he's right. Anyway, as I showed you EL is preposition in Hebrew. The word you should be using is Ail. And it IS a common word for a divine power, a mighty power. But, of course, using the proper pronounciation defeats the childish name-games you want to play.

EL is first and foremost - "A NAME" and in fact "THE NAME" .. on everyone's lips from Abraham To Solomon and beyond.

Nope, not on Abe's lips. You can't bring a single verse for that. And your exaggerated certainty about "everyone" from 1000s of years ago is pretty funny. Not surprising. For you. but funny.

Everyone .. and anyone who has any connection to society at large .. Throughout the world knows the Name EL (Elil , Enlil) - and know that EL is the Most HIgh God ... of the entire Near East .. Phonecians - Israelites - Assyrians - Babylonians - Amorites - Ammonites-Philistines ... all believe in El as the Most High .. Head of the Divine Council .. Big Kahuna of the various Pantheons

But that wasn't Abe's god. And knowing the name of someone else's deity does not equal belief in that deity. I know people worship Jesus, but I don't think Jesus is god. I know the name, but I don't share the belief.

It's really weird that you haven't come to this conclusion on your own. let me know if you need it explained. I have kids, so I have practice explaining things in very simple ways.

Over time ... the word EL became synonomous with God in Language Usage .. the big guy up in the Sky. First however through Epithets related to EL EL Elyon = God Most High .. but this God is EL EL Shaddai .. EL Oliun EL=Supreme

OMG. You're still using it. Oliun????? LOL. Oliun is not name for god. Dude. Wow. Just wow. I corrected you, I showed you. I gave you links to the vowels so you wouldn't make these types of mistakes. I tried to help you. But please. Continue sounding like a fool.

At the time of Abe EL is not likely being used as a General Term for God.

Abe never uses the name EL. So it doesn't matter.

You did get correct that context Tells us... something.. .. such as When MelchiZedek - Canaanite Priest King and Abe offer sacrifices to "El Supreme" -- most often translated as "Most High" in modern Bibles .. trying to increase the ambiguity - a funciton of translater bias ..

They didn't offer sacrifices together. You're making that up. Malchi-tzedek blesses Abe and gives him a tithe. Then Abe denies the spoils of the war citing that he, Abe, worships YHWH.

Either way ... the name of this particulare "Most High" --- is EL

No, you're mispronouncing it. It' not EL, it's not Oliun. It's actually Ail-Elyohn.

.. as Abe does not Worship a God by name YHWH

Sure he does.

.. and nor does the Canaanite High Preist..

So what?

The Cannanite High Priese "Most High" .. is EL Chief of his Pantheon .. nad in somewhat of a Trinity with the Twin Gods Zedek .. Patron God of Salem - (Jerusalem) at the time.

No... it's Shalem, not Jersalem... and this twin God thing is silly too. That was Sydyk and Misor. And jumping to the conclusion that somehow, Misor is included and not any others making a trinity is just ... i don't know... wishful pagan dreaming.

 

[dybmh]

YHWH is mentioned in the verse .. never stated otherwise ..

No... YHWH is not in Gen 14:18. And Abe is not in Gen 14:18. That's why Gen14:18 is completely irrelevant.

but this does not change the fact that YHWH states that Abe did not know him by the name YHWH.

YHWH doesn't say that. The Torah is not written in english. So... to understand the verse, you need to look at the language it was written in.

And that language says, Abe knew the name YHWH, but YHWH's reputation was not fully known.

What part of this are you having trouble understanding ? " I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as El-Shaddai—‘God Almighty’—but I did not reveal my name, Yahweh, to them."

It doesn't say "I did not reveal my name". That's false translation.

It says "לא נודעתי להם myself was not known to them". נודעתי. reflexive. myself was not known.

and you wish to claim this is a false Translation ..

It IS. reveal is not the verb. The name is not the subject of the verb. And the word order is shuffled.

and insert the adverb Fully

Yeah. That's showing that the NIV agrees with the meaning of the verse.

.. .. which doesn't make any sense in the sentence

Yes it does. You have to keep reading. I know, I know you don't actually read stuff.

4 verses later...

​

ולקחתי אתכם לי לעם והייתי לכם לאלהים וידעתם כי אני יהוה אלהיכם המוציא אתכם מתחת סבלות מצרים׃​

​

And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God; and you shall know that I am YHWH your God, who brings you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.​

See? YHWH was not fully known until the promises given to Abe Zach and Jake are fullfilled. Fully known once they a Full-filled. Fully fullfilled. It's easy if you read the story.

.. but doesn't change the fact that YHWH's name was not revealed to ABE .

Sure it was. I've given this verse several times. Try reading it:

​

ויאמר אליו אני יהוה אשר הוצאתיך מאור כשדים לתת לך את־הארץ הזאת לרשתה׃​

​

And he [YHWH] said to him, I am YHWH who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to inherit it.​

What difference would inserting the word Fully .. which is a total joke but let us humor the clowns over at the NIV ? Did YHWH only reveal one of the letters of his name to ABE ? .. not his full name ?

Let me see if I can find it... University of California:

The contrasting grammar and contrasting divine names refer to the deity's contrast-
ing abilities to implement the covenant of Genesis 17. In v. 3a, El Shaddai
is represented as a limited aspect of the Israelite deity, who promises but
does not fulfill. In v. 3b, Yahweh is the complete God. The clause "but I, my
name Yahweh, was not (fully) known to them (in a covenantal relationship)"
suggests that, for P, the Israelite deity had not completely fulfilled his
covenantal promises in the patriarchal period and, therefore, was not (yet)84
the object of full covenantal knowledge. When Yahweh keeps his promises,
the covenantal relation will be complete.85 But since fulfillment was not
complete in the patriarchal period, Yahweh was not fully known.86 Thus,

Exod 6:3 can be translated as "I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (in
limited form) as EI Shaddai (who makes covenantal promises). But I was not
the object of (full) covenantal knowledge to them as conveyed by my name
Yahweh (who keeps covenantal promises):' From this standpoint, grammar
and interpretation suggest the same conclusion: For P, the divine name EI
Shaddai represents a partial characterization of the Israelite deity, whose
complete counterpart is represented by the divine name Yahweh.87

Notice. This person is an adherent to the DH, but STILL comes to the same correct conclusion based on GRAMMAR.

Either way ... the "EL Supreme" that Abe and MelchiZedek are worshiping is not named YHWH ..

Nope. Abe wasn't worshipping EL. He says the name of his god in Gen 14:22. It's YHWH. You keep quoting Malchi-Tzedek and pretending it includes Abe. But, it doesn't.

and you have brought no "scholarship" showing that "Fully" is the correct translation

Sure I did, you didn't read it. Here's more though. Just look up.

.. and even if you had .. you are claiming the 10 other Bible Translations are False ...

It all depends on the translation. So far, the two you have brought have been false.

You have demonstrated that you do not know what "Scholarship" means"

Sure I do. I brought a peer-reviewed journal article. And I brought the BDB lexicon. That's definitley scholarship. And now you have University of California.

Where's YOUR scholarship discussing these grammar and translation issues? You keep saying scholarship, scholarship, but you bring none.

Your claim that "I did not reveal My Name Yahweh, to them" should read " I did not reveal my Reputation YHWH to them"

It's not reveal.

"...but my reptuation, YHWH, myself was not known to them."

is completely idiotic false nonsense on Biblical Steriods

Kinda like Oliun...

.. absolute dumb and dumber from one of thos Snake Charmer fundimentalist apologist web sites.

I've brought Hebrew experts. Peer-reviewed journal. University of California. The BDB Lexicon. You've brought 2 false tranlsations.

But -- for giggles .. do back up this latest made up nonsense of yours.

I just keep adding more and more support.

When are YOU going to support YOUR conclusion about Abe's god? Oh yeah. You can't.

 

[Sargonski]

It doesn't say "I did not reveal my name". That's false translation.

It says "לא נודעתי להם myself was not known to them". נודעתי. reflexive. myself was not known.




It IS. reveal is not the verb. The name is not the subject of the verb. And the word order is shuffled.



Yeah. That's showing that the NIV agrees with the meaning of the verse.



Yes it does. You have to keep reading. I know, I know you don't actually read stuff.

4 verses later...

​

ולקחתי אתכם לי לעם והייתי לכם לאלהים וידעתם כי אני יהוה אלהיכם המוציא אתכם מתחת סבלות מצרים׃​

​

And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God; and you shall know that I am YHWH your God, who brings you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.​

See? YHWH was not fully known until the promises given to Abe Zach and Jake are fullfilled. Fully known once they a Full-filled. Fully fullfilled. It's easy if you read the story.




Sure it was. I've given this verse several times. Try reading it:

​

ויאמר אליו אני יהוה אשר הוצאתיך מאור כשדים לתת לך את־הארץ הזאת לרשתה׃​

​

And he [YHWH] said to him, I am YHWH who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to inherit it.​

Let me see if I can find it... University of California:

The contrasting grammar and contrasting divine names refer to the deity's contrast-
ing abilities to implement the covenant of Genesis 17. In v. 3a, El Shaddai
is represented as a limited aspect of the Israelite deity, who promises but
does not fulfill. In v. 3b, Yahweh is the complete God. The clause "but I, my
name Yahweh, was not (fully) known to them (in a covenantal relationship)"
suggests that, for P, the Israelite deity had not completely fulfilled his
covenantal promises in the patriarchal period and, therefore, was not (yet)84
the object of full covenantal knowledge. When Yahweh keeps his promises,
the covenantal relation will be complete.85 But since fulfillment was not
complete in the patriarchal period, Yahweh was not fully known.86 Thus,

Exod 6:3 can be translated as "I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (in
limited form) as EI Shaddai (who makes covenantal promises). But I was not
the object of (full) covenantal knowledge to them as conveyed by my name
Yahweh (who keeps covenantal promises):' From this standpoint, grammar
and interpretation suggest the same conclusion: For P, the divine name EI
Shaddai represents a partial characterization of the Israelite deity, whose
complete counterpart is represented by the divine name Yahweh.87

Notice. This person is an adherent to the DH, but STILL comes to the same correct conclusion based on GRAMMAR.

View attachment 78506


Nope. Abe wasn't worshipping EL. He says the name of his god in Gen 14:22. It's YHWH. You keep quoting Malchi-Tzedek and pretending it includes Abe. But, it doesn't.

What a Tremendous pile of Blind duncity. There is no "Fully" in the Hebrew Script .. .. and your supposed Scholarship .. has not shown this to be in there ... just stated it should be read that way.

Cutting and pasting some dude claiming "Fully" should be in there .. from some University .. does not tell us why it should be in there.. its just a guy making some claim. The explanation and "Scholarship" how he got to that claim not given .. followed by desperate apology ... the worst though is that it matters not "Fully" in there or not .. Abe does not know his God by the Name YHWH. so your position is crucified either way.

Any moron can google this and find someone that is going to agree with anything ... which is why we don't take -- naked claims seriously .. as that would be Appeal to Authority Fallacy.

Further .. the fellow does not state that "Fully" is in the translation .. by his reckoning the passage should be read that way.. and the Clowns over at NIV have adopted that position.

The fact remains .. unfortunately -- that this means 20 other Bibles are "False Translations" .... Pious Fraud .. on a grand Scale according to you...

The question of which Translation is correct however remains unanswered . The 20 Bible Translations claiming Abe did not know his God by the name YHWH .. or the one Translation claiming Abe did not Fully Know the name YHWH .

Given the latter translation is idiotic .. making no sense in context of the sentence or what is happening overall.

Either way Abe does not worship a God by the name of YHWH .. despite this desperate idiotic attempt by the NIV to convey otherwise .. the attempt fails. .. makes the reader think a little bit more to come to the same conclusion via abiguity .. and gives some of the slower ships in the fleet fodder for denial - until they try and explain what not knowing a name fully means -- at which time position is lost.

What happened to your supposed translation "My reputation was not known" .. curious what happened to that Lie.

The Most High God that Abe and Melchizedek were worshiping was not named YHWH .. according to YHWH Exodus 6:3

Thats a long list of "False Translation" according to you.... Think we better go to the NET Bible .. since it is the most Recent

New American Standard Bible
and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as God Almighty, but by My name, LORD, I did not make Myself known to them.

NASB 1995
and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name, LORD, I did not make Myself known to them.

NASB 1977
and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name, LORD, I did not make Myself known to them.

Legacy Standard Bible
and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name, Yahweh, I was not known to them.

Amplified Bible
I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob (Israel) as God Almighty [El Shaddai], but by My name, LORD, I did not make Myself known to them [in acts and great miracles].

Christian Standard Bible
I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as God Almighty, but I was not known to them by my name ‘the LORD.’

 

[Sargonski]

No... YHWH is not in Gen 14:18. And Abe is not in Gen 14:18. That's why Gen14:18 is completely irrelevant.

​

And he [YHWH] said to him, I am YHWH who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to inherit it.​

Let me see if I can find it... University of California:

The contrasting grammar and contrasting divine names refer to the deity's contrast-
ing abilities to implement the covenant of Genesis 17. In v. 3a, El Shaddai
is represented as a limited aspect of the Israelite deity, who promises but
does not fulfill. In v. 3b, Yahweh is the complete God. The clause "but I, my
name Yahweh, was not (fully) known to them (in a covenantal relationship)"
suggests that, for P, the Israelite deity had not completely fulfilled his
covenantal promises in the patriarchal period and, therefore, was not (yet)84
the object of full covenantal knowledge. When Yahweh keeps his promises,
the covenantal relation will be complete.85 But since fulfillment was not
complete in the patriarchal period, Yahweh was not fully known.86 Thus,

Exod 6:3 can be translated as "I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (in
limited form) as EI Shaddai (who makes covenantal promises). But I was not
the object of (full) covenantal knowledge to them as conveyed by my name
Yahweh (who keeps covenantal promises):' From this standpoint, grammar
and interpretation suggest the same conclusion: For P, the divine name EI
Shaddai represents a partial characterization of the Israelite deity, whose
complete counterpart is represented by the divine name Yahweh.87



Sure I do. I brought a peer-reviewed journal article. And I brought the BDB lexicon. That's definitley scholarship. And now you have University of California.

W

this was worth a chuckle -- yup and all the folks doing the translations for the 20 Bibles you call False .. have access to many peer reviewed Journal articles .. but also many texts MT - LXX - and others consider.. so .. "You need to have the WHY" taking someone's word for it based on credential doesn't cut it .. aside from being Appeal to Authority Fallacy. ..

The contrasting grammar and contrasting divine names refer to the deity's contrast-
ing abilities to implement the covenant of Genesis 17. In v. 3a, El Shaddai
is represented as a limited aspect of the Israelite deity, who promises but
does not fulfill. In v. 3b, Yahweh is the complete God. The clause

Grandeouse Bull Carp .. El Saddai makes no promises in this Verse .. so there is nothing to not fulfill .. So this is a made up speculatory diaster .. on Biblical steroids. What is the date on this thing .. looks old .. an embarrassment in light of modern Theological Scholarship in any case

.BUT ---- still crucifying your position at the end of the day admitting to the identity of another God in the Passage .. one other than YHWH .. to which MelChiZedek and ABe are Sacrificing .. although a God this fellow claims is not as Great as YHWH .. which is a side chuckle.

Either way your position os roasted .. Fried .. and Crucified .. this time by your own source .. which .. is somewhat priceless .. but also somewhat sad. Sad because there is a heresy that you are Promulgating .. fed you by another ... SMCT .. at work.

 

[dybmh]

What a Tremendous pile of Blind duncity. There is no "Fully" in the Hebrew Script .. .. and your supposed Scholarship .. has not shown this to be in there ... just stated it should be read that way.

Of course! The word fully is not in there. but that's because the NIV is not a word for word translation. Often a word-for-word literal translation doesn't work. Like I said with "other-gods before me". That doesn't work if it's understood hyper-literally. Which is what you are doing.

Cutting and pasting some dude claiming "Fully" should be in there .. from some University .. does not tell us why it should be in there..

YOU claimed it didn't make sense. I have explained why it makes sense. But since you won't believe me, I brought Exo 6:7, and a scholar explaining the gist of it for you. So it would "make sense".

its just a guy making some claim. The explanation and "Scholarship" how he got to that claim not given

It's all the same stuff really. I don't have time re-explain deeply.

.. followed by desperate apology ... the worst though is that it matters not "Fully" in there or not ..

What matters is understanding what the verse means, in context, with the grammar. And it means that YHWH as not fully known until the promises were fullfilled ( fully known, requires fullfilling the promises ) and no one really knew YHWH fully until the plagues and miracles of the exodus and the revelation at sinai.

Abe does not know his God by the Name YHWH.

Sure he does. And he said so. And never used the name EL. The point here is without this 1 verse, which you are abusing, you have nothing left.

Even if this verse meant precisely what you want, you still can't use process of elimination and leap to: "It must be EL, it MUST be EL, because.... ummmmm, I don't know any better." That doesn't work.

so your position is crucified either way.

Not at all. I've brought multiple sources. Good scholarship, answered all your questions ON THIS, and you have no rebuttal except... "But the english means what I want it to mean."

Any moron can google this and find someone that is going to agree with anything ... which is why we don't take -- naked claims seriously .. as that would be Appeal to Authority Fallacy.

Ironic, since you have repeated been appealing to authority. I am bringing reasons, REASONS, why I'm right. Then I'm bringing sources to confirm I'm not making up those reasons.

You've brought nothing but 2 failed translations, and the deep-deep faith that the english must be correct.

Further .. the fellow does not state that "Fully" is in the translation .. by his reckoning the passage should be read that way.. and the Clowns over at NIV have adopted that position.

Yes, the NIV has confirmed that it is a legit manner for understanding the verse. I've brought good sources explaining WHY that is th proper rending. And you have been given the reasons, multiple reasons, why the DH is a complete fail. And it's the DH that requires a hyper-literal understanding of the verse.

That's it. And this is how it always goes. The critic NEEDS a superficial shallow hyper-literal rendering to maintain their position. So they always refuse to go past the surface assumptions. That's how stereotyping works. That's how bigotry works. It's all based on shallow superficial assumptions and false judgements.

The fact remains .. unfortunately -- that this means 20 other Bibles are "False Translations" .... Pious Fraud .. on a grand Scale according to you...

it could be. What site are you using for these translations? biblehub? We can go through them one at time.

The question of which Translation is correct however remains unanswered .

The first thing to do is look for added words. And yes that crosses out the NIV. But that's fine. It's more important to understand the meaning of "my name, YHWH," and the reflexive.

Again understanding what the words mean, is key.

The 20 Bible Translations claiming Abe did not know his God by the name YHWH .. or the one Translation claiming Abe did not Fully Know the name YHWH .

That what the correct translation means. Yes. YHWH was not fully known. But the name was known. the name is not the subject.

Let's go through the tranlsations and figure this out. OK?

Given the latter translation is idiotic .. making no sense in context of the sentence or what is happening overall.

It's not, though. It makes perfect sense. Think about it. Pretend you;re in the story. Exo 3. Big Moe gets the name YHWH. Pretend he doesn't know it already. He goes back tot he crew. Tells them the name. Then in Exo 6, YHWH says, they will know me when I rescue them. Get it? Knowing YHWH FULLY includes keeping the promise and the plagues. Moe told them the name, but they need more than the name to actually fully know YHWH.

It's not idiotic. It makes perfect sense and fits in beautifully with the actual story. Not the story you're crafting. But the actual story? Yeah, it's a cinderella fit.

Either way Abe does not worship a God by the name of YHWH

Yeah, he does.

.. despite this desperate idiotic attempt by the NIV to convey otherwise .. the attempt fails. .. makes the reader think a little bit more to come to the same conclusion via abiguity .. and gives some of the slower ships in the fleet fodder for denial

Nah. It's really easy.

- until they try and explain what not knowing a name fully means -- at which time position is lost.

No, again, the name is not the subject. it is the being itself that is not fully known. it's the meaning of the name that is not fully known. it is the reputation that is not fully known. the name was fully known.

What happened to your supposed translation "My reputation was not known" .. curious what happened to that Lie.

It's reflected in the lexicon.

The Most High God that Abe and Melchizedek were worshiping was not named YHWH .. according to YHWH Exodus 6:3

They were doing different things. Same place... doing different things. Abe gives the name of his god, it's YHWH.

Thats a long list of "False Translation" according to you.... Think we better go to the NET Bible .. since it is the most Recent

Let's see?

I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name ‘the Lord YHWH’, I myself was not known to them.

There ya go. fixed it.

The name was known. YHWH the being was not fully known.

 

[Sargonski]

Let's see?

I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name ‘the Lord YHWH’, I myself was not known to them.

There ya go. fixed it.

The name was known. YHWH the being was not fully known.

Wild unhinge denial .. The NIV insertion of "Fully" does not change the fact that ABE does not know the God he is worshiping with MelChiZedek .. as YHWH .. and further .. your Journal article you presented as evidence admits the same.

New International Version
I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name the LORD I did not make myself fully known to them.

New Living Translation
I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as El-Shaddai—‘God Almighty’—but I did not reveal my name, Yahweh, to them

Abe didn't know his God by the name YHWH .. need to stop trying to fly that lie told to you by these fundamentalist snake charmer sites -- Them be the way of the deceiver my Friend.

 

[Sargonski]

See that. You need to a quote with Abe saying the name EL.

I don't need to do any such thing .. nor did I suggest any such thing ? What a donut -- Strawman Fallacy mate .. need to get off the made up fantasy... What is with the deceit in near every post .. these little fibs add up over time.

The Name of the God our good Friend MelchiZedek is worshiping long side Abe .. .. is not known to them by the name YHWH ...

So then .. What was the name by which by which they knew the God they were Worshiping .. my young crucified apprentice

 

[Brian2]

You don't know what you are talking about .. As per your link .. it is not disputed that there are different sources by many different authors over a long period of Time that make up the bible .. including the Pentatuch.

Some of the speculations in the "Classical DH" have fallen out of favor .. but no serious Theologian thinks Moses wrote the first 5 Book .. Not even the Bible .. which writes about things that happen after the death of Moses.

Did you not watch your own link or do you just not understand what is being said to you ?

I thought I understood it as saying that there are many things against the DH and that even though there are different sources for parts of the Pentateuch the evidence from other ANE sources shows that what is seen as different documents from different sources is not necessarily that, but is just the style of writing in the day. That it is impossible to separate the combined into the source documents even if it is true. It also says there is information in all of these supposed source documents that is consistent with each supposed document and that is information that could only have been known by people who lived back in the time of Moses.
And of course it says a lot more that challenges the Documentary Hypothesis.
But of course, on your side you do have the fact that many liberal theologians probably still accept the DH or a variant of it. These people might believe that the Pentateuch is pretty much a work of fiction written maybe 1000 years after it was supposed to have been written as origin myths for the Jews who returned from Babylon.
I hear that some people have been deceived to the extent that they think that it does not matter if the Bible is a work of fiction or not, faith can survive, and I guess for them maybe it has.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That's nonsense..
I would agree that the children of Israel sometimes fell into polytheism..
..but that has nothing to do with the Oneness of G-d.

The Jewish God - and by extension your God - started as just one god out of many in a pantheon. He was merely the god of Israel, not the only god.

Monotheism is a later innovation.

That would be mankind, who might corrupt the first commandment with their own devices.

The first commandment is to not put any of the other gods before God. It explicitly acknowledges polytheism.