Thana
Lady
It all depends upon the Christian, I suppose.
Although I think the mockery from some is unnecessary. People can be deeply affected by exploring things like this, It's not such a crime to caution them.
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Why Do Christians insist meditation is "dangerous"?
- Thread starter Orbit
- Start date
It all depends upon the Christian, I suppose.
Although I think the mockery from some is unnecessary. People can be deeply affected by exploring things like this, It's not such a crime to caution them.
SpeaksForTheTrees
Well-Known Member
What if only "God" existed but none of that other stuff, what if "God" wasnt even aware of his fame on earth how wrong would everyone be..
Christians? Nah they cant be or they wouldnt behave like that, thought meditation was more about relaxation than fratenizing with the dark side.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
That's pretty accurate from a Christian perspective. I was told the same things during that time.
I see why in light of experiencing mayko (harmless phenomina) on numerous occasions ranging from hearing my name called out rather loudly, disembodied voices, smelling bread, and one of my favorite phenomina once when I heard an entire orchestra playing in an empty room.
For anyone not familiar with the phenomena associated with meditation, it's easy to see why any Christian would see it as being something other than harmless manifestations of the mind, and attribute it to demons and such. It can be unsettling for sure at times.
Why Do Christians insist meditation is "dangerous"?
So far we have not heard from a single Christian that thinks meditation is dangerous. I just don't think this is a very common view.
So far we have not heard from a single Christian that thinks meditation is dangerous. I just don't think this is a very common view.
I agree, it is a ridiculous assertion.
Nonetheless Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Nestorians, many Anglicans, Methodists, Quakers, even many Lutherans et al generally have a high regard for meditative and contemplative practices in their respective traditions. Consider the numerous contemplative monastic orders in the Catholic Church, the Hesychasts in Eastern Orthodoxy, the Early Desert Fathers in the Coptic Church, the Syrian mystics, the Anglican Metaphysical Poets and so forth. The Christians that have a problem are by and large to be found among Evangelicals, Southern Baptists, Calvinists and some other denominations with fundamentalist interpretations of Scripture.
When you consider that Catholicism represents something like 1.2 billion of the 2 billion Christians in the world, with the other aforementioned denominations such as EO, OO and CofE comprising a large chunk of that next 1 billion among non-Catholic Christians, I would suggest that the Christians wary of meditation/contemplation are actually pretty small by global standards. Evangelical Fundamentalism is essentially an 18th-19th century American (predominantly) movement that has very little historical basis in or connection with Early Christianity or for that matter medieval Christianity, both of which were rich in diverse spiritual practices, ideas, paths etc.
These types of Puritan-offshoot Christians, however, are overrepresented in the United States of America in particular which has always been their chief turf. The Thirteen Colonies were, it must be remembered, a haven for Puritans fleeing England in the search for a New Jerusalem. This Calvinistic ethos and culture - beginning with the "Pilgrim Fathers" of the Mayflower - still retains a certain hold over Christianity in the States, even though Arminianism did begin to replace this earlier Calvinism over time. These are the Christian denominations most ill disposed towards spirituality and mysticism.
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Actually having an "empty mind" or rather a mind empty of inordinate desires and the associated mental images these arouse, is a major element of "Contemplation" in the Catholic spiritual tradition:
"...The preliminary condition for contemplation is that the mind has been through a process of spiritual training, whereby it is able to empty itself of images and sense perceptions...
One sets oneself to pray, say for the regulation half-hour; empties the mind of all images, ideas, concepts - this is commonly done without much difficulty; fixes the soul in loving attention on God, without express or distinct idea of Him, beyond the vague incomprehensible idea of His Godhead; makes no particular acts, but a general actuation of love, without sensible devotion or emotional feeling: a sort of blind and dumb act of the will or of the soul itself. This lasts a few minutes, then fades away, and either a blank or distractions supervene: when recognized, the will again fixes the mind in loving attention for a time. The period of prayer is thus passed in such alternations, a few minutes each, the bouts of loving attention being, in favourable conditions, more prolonged than the bouts of distraction..."
- Dom Cuthbert Butler, Benedictine Monk in "Western Mysticism: Augustine, Gregory, and Bernard on Contemplation and the Contemplative Life" (1922), p69
One sets oneself to pray, say for the regulation half-hour; empties the mind of all images, ideas, concepts - this is commonly done without much difficulty; fixes the soul in loving attention on God, without express or distinct idea of Him, beyond the vague incomprehensible idea of His Godhead; makes no particular acts, but a general actuation of love, without sensible devotion or emotional feeling: a sort of blind and dumb act of the will or of the soul itself. This lasts a few minutes, then fades away, and either a blank or distractions supervene: when recognized, the will again fixes the mind in loving attention for a time. The period of prayer is thus passed in such alternations, a few minutes each, the bouts of loving attention being, in favourable conditions, more prolonged than the bouts of distraction..."
- Dom Cuthbert Butler, Benedictine Monk in "Western Mysticism: Augustine, Gregory, and Bernard on Contemplation and the Contemplative Life" (1922), p69
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A little more on this Christian "emptiness" of mind:
"...Here reason no less than all separate acts must give way, for our powers become simple in love; they are silent and bowed down in the Presence of the Father. And this revelation of the Father lifts the soul above the mind into the Imageless Nudity. There the soul is simple, pure, spotless, empty of all things; and it is in this state of perfect emptiness that the Father manifests His Divine radiance. To this radiance neither reason nor sense, observation nor distinction, can attain. All this must stay below; for the measureless radiance blinds the eyes of the reason, they cannot bear the Incomprehensible Light. But above the mind, in the most secret part of the understanding, the simple eye is ever open. It contemplates and gazes at the Light with a pure sight that is lit by the Light itself: eye to eye, mirror to mirror, image to image. This threefold act makes us like God, and unites us to Him; for the sight of the simple eye is a living mirror..."
- Blessed Jan Van Ruusbroec (1293 – 1381), Flemish mystic & Augustinian priest
"...God greatly esteems having brought them to this solitude and emptiness of their faculties and operations, that He may speak to their heart, which is what He ever desires. If you only wait upon God with loving and pure attentiveness (detach the soul from everything and set it free) God will feed your soul for you with heavenly food, since you are not hindering Him. When God brings the soul into that emptiness and solitude where it can neither use its faculties nor make any acts, it sees that it is doing nothing and strives to do something. Therefore it becomes distracted and full of aridity and displeasure. Although it is doing nothing, it is nevertheless accomplishing much more than if it were working, since God is working within it. The deep caverns of sense, with strange brightness, give heat and light together to their Beloved. ‘Together’ because the communication of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit in the soul are made together, and are the light and fire of love..."
- Saint John of the Cross (1542 – 1591), The Living Flame of Love
"...So, however much the soul aspires to be perfectly united through grace in this life with that to which it will be united through glory in the next (which, as Saint Paul here says, eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man in the flesh), it is clear that, in order perfectly to attain to union in this life through grace and through love, a soul must be in darkness with respect to all that can enter through the eye, and to all that can be received through the ear, and can be imagined with the fancy, and understood with the heart, which here signifies the soul. And thus a soul is greatly impeded from reaching this high estate of union with God when it clings to any understanding or feeling or imagination or appearance or will or manner of its own, or to any other act or to anything of its own, and cannot detach and strip itself of all these. For, as we say, the goal which it seeks lies beyond all this, yea, beyond even the highest thing that can be known or experienced; and thus a soul must pass beyond everything to unknowing..."
- Saint John of the Cross (1542 – 1591), Book 2 Chapter 4 Paragraph 4
- Blessed Jan Van Ruusbroec (1293 – 1381), Flemish mystic & Augustinian priest
"...God greatly esteems having brought them to this solitude and emptiness of their faculties and operations, that He may speak to their heart, which is what He ever desires. If you only wait upon God with loving and pure attentiveness (detach the soul from everything and set it free) God will feed your soul for you with heavenly food, since you are not hindering Him. When God brings the soul into that emptiness and solitude where it can neither use its faculties nor make any acts, it sees that it is doing nothing and strives to do something. Therefore it becomes distracted and full of aridity and displeasure. Although it is doing nothing, it is nevertheless accomplishing much more than if it were working, since God is working within it. The deep caverns of sense, with strange brightness, give heat and light together to their Beloved. ‘Together’ because the communication of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit in the soul are made together, and are the light and fire of love..."
- Saint John of the Cross (1542 – 1591), The Living Flame of Love
"...So, however much the soul aspires to be perfectly united through grace in this life with that to which it will be united through glory in the next (which, as Saint Paul here says, eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man in the flesh), it is clear that, in order perfectly to attain to union in this life through grace and through love, a soul must be in darkness with respect to all that can enter through the eye, and to all that can be received through the ear, and can be imagined with the fancy, and understood with the heart, which here signifies the soul. And thus a soul is greatly impeded from reaching this high estate of union with God when it clings to any understanding or feeling or imagination or appearance or will or manner of its own, or to any other act or to anything of its own, and cannot detach and strip itself of all these. For, as we say, the goal which it seeks lies beyond all this, yea, beyond even the highest thing that can be known or experienced; and thus a soul must pass beyond everything to unknowing..."
- Saint John of the Cross (1542 – 1591), Book 2 Chapter 4 Paragraph 4
No, I'm not going to hold your hand and provide you with sources for something that is not difficult to find on your own, especially when I don't give a $#@% if you agree with me, and when looking at those things is very upsetting for me... at times literally making me sick to my stomach.
leibowde84
Veteran Member
You don't have to. Just provide the links. I did a search myself and I didn't really find anything too memorable. Maybe a more specific search? Author/Book's name?
I am honestly not trying to be a jerk. I'm just curious about this stuff. I went to catholic/Jesuit all-boys school thru high school.
I guess it depends on what you do during the meditation?
IDK, I suppose if someone were to meditate with the intent of, say, contacting anything and everything that's out there, they might find something they don't like.From my experience, the most "dangerous" thing I've ever heard of from any Christian about meditation (Jack Chick and his ilk aside) is either doing too much meditative prayer and burning yourself out, or starting to get prideful and all "holier than thou" as a result of your practice.
raph
Member
Praying is meditation. When praying you are focussing on the words. When meditating you are focusing on your breath, thoughts, a point or what ever. Both activities serve the same purpose & are a ladder to heaven. I guess, some christians find meditation dangerous, because it is highly valued in buddhism and hinduism. Religions, that many christians call dangerous.
Meditating can be a lot of things. It can be about thinking truly deeply about something in ones life and it can be incorporated in a more religious context like the repetition of scripture, the aid of religious music or chanting in an effort to achieve clarity of mind and closeness with god. For a Christian, this cant really be done in a Buddhist environment. There are spiritual, scriptural and fundamental differences between the two religions. The way a Christian meditates or clears the mind, self improvement or seeks peace is by reading Christian scripture and relying on the name of Jesus and directing all through towards Jesus who is the centre of our religion. In Hindu meditation it is the same, they focus their minds on their own gods and their own methods for reaching perfection and inner peace. This is a reason why Christians steer clear from yoga type meditation. One would then argue that all religions lead to the same god and that any from of meditation will do however different religious books believe deferent things about how the world works, who god is ect. Just another perspective here 
Yoshua
Well-Known Member
Hi Orbit,
The word "meditation" is a general term for every religious groups such as Buddhist, Christians, Christians (contemplative), Muslim, Mormons, JW and others. What differ is HOW THEY MEDITATE. What is their point of reference in meditating? what would be their basis?
As evangelical, we are very careful (enough) to adhere to what the Holy Scriptures stated. We will not add anything that is not practiced or taught by Jesus Christ. We believed that the practices outside the scriptures will be considered as false and authored by the evil one. May I give you an example:
Deut. 18:10-13
10. "There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,
11. or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.(necromancy)
12. "For whoever does these things is detestable to the Lord; and because of these detestable things the Lord your God will drive them out before you.
13. "You shall be blameless before the Lord your God.
The following are what I've posted in the other thread "Contemplative Christianity":
It is better to understand first how demonic activity works. We have some passage here referring to evil/unclean spirit:
Matt.12:43-45
43. But the unclean spirit, when he is gone out of the man, passeth through waterless places, seeking rest, and findeth it not.
44. Then he saith, I will return into my house whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man becometh worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this evil generation.
The demons roamed around us. They are seeking a place to rest, a vacant house; a body to live with it.
Eph.4:26-27
26. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27. Neither give place to the devil.
How about our mind? The following are the Scriptures referring to our minds. What we should do with our minds.
1.) We should have the mind of Christ.
2.) Our thought captive to the obedience of Christ.
3.) Guard your minds in Christ Jesus.
4.) Renewing your mind.
I don’t see here emptying your mind or quieting your mind and so on.
1 Cor. 2:14-16
14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
2 Cor. 10:3-5
3. For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh,
4. for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses.
5. We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,
Phil.4:6-7
6. Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.
7. And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, shall guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
Romans 12:2
2. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
The following are how emptying one’s mind gained an entrance for the evil spirit:
1.) Not using God’s word in meditating.
2.) Focusing on self rather than the Scripture.
3.) Not conscious with Christ.
There are degrees of gaining an entrance with the demons/evil spirits. Once example is when a person practiced quija board/or spirit of the glass surely gain a foothold. Based on my experience, my friend was possessed, we take care of her for 2 years. A friend of mine in the Aikido class told me that he practiced Yoga, he dreamt a scary thing before he became a yogi. Gaining an entrance of demons is not always in the degree of possession like the movie ‘Exorcist,’ The foothold of the devil to a person may start from the mind deception as some of cult churches had. They claim themselves as christian but their doctrines were authored by the demons through angelic or Jesus-like appearance through their founder, and they thought it was from God. This is not solely for mind emptying—to gained devil’s foothold. There are a lot of factors that an evil can gain a foothold. The key is this—from the scripture.
Gal. 1:6-9
6. I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
7. which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you, and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8. But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
9. As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.
Hope this make clear regarding Christian meditation and emptying minds.
Thanks
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Oh, thanks for pointing that out. Anyways, Nee is one of Smith Wigglesworth's ilk and starting with that 3-part theory, he stretches it into a theory about psychic activity and paranormal influences. He's fundamentalist and insists on a Bible that is perfect and without error, and he uses that to ratchet up his theories about paranormal things. As to the opening question, most of the churches and TV ministries that preach against meditation lay tracks back to him and to Wigglesworth and usually are into laying on of hands, fainting in services and other characteristic manipulations.
Yes, we are to possess the mind of Christ. And what of Our Lord? In becoming man through the Incarnation and sacrificing Himself for our salvation on the Cross, did he not "empty" (kenosis) Himself?
Philippians 2
5 For let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man.
5 For let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man.
The contemplative soul "empties" itself of all its own contents in order to receive the object of its longing - God Himself. Contemplation is a supreme act of humility and "bareness" in which we still the chatter of our own thinking minds with their fleeting thoughts so as to listen to the inexpressible, incomprehensible voice of God alone. It is a "letting go". We do not force thoughts out, we simply notice them and return to our focus on God without forming any distinct, man-made images of Him in our head - since the goal is to allow Him to reveal Himself to us as He is in Himself, not mediated through our thoughts and impressions.
Jesus was "emptied", made "nothing" through His crucifixion. Jesus made nothing through the crucifixion is the supreme wisdom, for St. Paul tells us that Jesus is "the wisdom of God" (1 Corinthians 1:24) and notes: "For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified" (1 Corinthians 2:2). The contemplative, likewise, strives to "know nothing" except the inexpressible Wisdom of God communicated through the heart. He thus stills his "thinking mind" with its worldly, human wisdom and sense impressions. He crucifies his desires, wants, needs and perceptions so as to open himself in humility to God. All created things, including our thoughts and impressions, are nothing when compared with God. To become one with God, we ourselves must be willing to become as nothing.
This process was beautifully described by St. John of the Cross:
"...To reach satisfaction in all, desire satisfaction in nothing.
To come to possess all, desire the possession of nothing.
To arrive at being all, desire to be nothing.
To come to the knowledge of all, desire the knowledge of nothing.
To come to enjoy what you have not, you must go by a way in which you enjoy not.
To come to the possession you have not, you must go by a way in which you possess not.
To come to what you are not, you must go by a way in which you are not..."
To come to possess all, desire the possession of nothing.
To arrive at being all, desire to be nothing.
To come to the knowledge of all, desire the knowledge of nothing.
To come to enjoy what you have not, you must go by a way in which you enjoy not.
To come to the possession you have not, you must go by a way in which you possess not.
To come to what you are not, you must go by a way in which you are not..."
Yoshua
Well-Known Member
Hi Vouthon,
Topics: EMPTY
English Use: Verb
Strong's Number: 2758
Transliterated: kenoo
Text: "to empty," is so translated in Phil. 2:7, RV, for KJV, "made...of no reputation." The clauses which follow the verb are exegetical of its meaning, especially the phrases "the form of a servant," and "the likeness of men." Christ did not "empty" Himself of Godhood. He did not cease to be what He essentially and eternally was. The KJV, while not an exact translation, goes far to express the act of the Lord (see GIFFORD on the Incarnation). For other occurrences of the word, see Rom. 4:14; 1 Cor. 1:17; 9:15; 2 Cor. 9:3.\ In the Sept., Jer. 14:2; 15:9.\biblehub
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
empty, make void, be in vain.
From kenos; to make empty, i.e. (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify -- make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain.
6. who, though he was God, did not demand and cling to his rights as God,
7. but laid aside his mighty power and glory, taking the disguise of a slave and becoming like men. Christ humbled himself (LVB)
The “empty” here is for the caused of incarnation from being in divine-God (made of no reputation) for taking the form of a servant (as man-human flesh). He is not made out of nothing or made into nothing. The prophecy is already taking place for the Emmanuel, the Messiah will fulfill the mission of salvation. Just to clarify that this process is not related to emptying as made in nothing. I agree with the last statement of St. John "To come to what you are not, you must go by a way in which you are not..."
Thanks
Hi Yoshua,
I did not mean literally "nothing". The mind, in its bare and pure state, is not "nothing". The point I was making was that (if you read back) contemplation is a supreme act of humility and self-surrender whereby our minds are conformed to the example of Christ, who "emptied" himself and became as "nothing" (ie no repute, a human being). In the same way, by a sort of parallel means, to attain the mind of Christ we have to "empty" ourselves of our "human" thoughts and desires so as to put on Christ just as He for us put on an inferior human nature. It is in keeping with the ancient saying, "God became man that might become god". Just as Christ "emptied" himself to the human level, thus we are to "empty" ourselves through grace to the divine through the humility of contemplative prayer.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
bollocks! Xy doesn't "condemn spiritual growth and free thought."