Why do Gentiles assume they should follow the ten commandments?

[Harmonious]

Please forgive me using the Talmud to try and explain why I have been ..................?:

The Complete Babylonian Talmud
in one volume

Anything that claims to be the entire Babylonian Talmud in ONE VOLUME is seriously suspect. The whole Talmud is at least 24 volumes, and that's the short version.

But I will respond to this.

Talmud - Mas. Sanhedrin 98b

R. Simlai expounded: What is meant by, Woe unto you, that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light.?39 This may be compared to a c_ck and a bat who were hopefully waiting for the light [i.e., dawn]. The c_ck said to the bat, ‘I look forward to the light, because I have sight; but of what use is the light to thee?’40
(40) Thus Israel should hope for the redemption, because it will be a day of light to them: but why should the Gentiles, seeing that for them it will be a day of darkness?

Bad.

The Soncino translation of the same passage is thus:

R. Simlai expounded: What is meant by, Woe unto you, that desire the day of the Lord! To what end is it for you? The day of the Lord is darkness, and not light?39 This may be compared to a **** and a bat who were hopefully waiting for the light [i.e., dawn]. The **** said to the bat, 'I look forward to the light, because I have sight; but of what use is the light to thee?'40

There is nothing there about non-Jews. Not on Sanhedrin 98b. Your source made it up.

Talmud - Mas. Sanhedrin 99a
R. Hillel7 said: There shall be no Messiah for Israel,8 because they have already enjoyed him in the days of Hezekiah. R. Joseph said: May God forgive him [for saying so]. Now, when did Hezekiah flourish? During the first Temple. Yet Zechariah, prophesying in the days of the second, proclaimed, Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion, shout, O daughter of Jerusalem, behold, thy king cometh unto thee! he is just, and having salvation, lowly, and riding upon an a_s, and upon a colt the foal of an a_s.9
(8) But the Almighty will himself redeem israel and reign over them (Rashi). [‘He may have been prompted to this declaration by Origen's professed discovery in the Old Testament of Messianic passages referring to the founder of Christianity’ (J.E. VI, 401).]
(9) Zech. IX, 9.

What a surprise that the Almighty himself will redeem Israel and that no Messiah will come for them ?

It is one opinion, and you didn't bother to keep it in context, ie. the other opinions who disagree with Hillel on this point.

Talmud - Mas. T'murah 3a

"...The Master said: ‘No secular use may be made of dedications of a gentile, but the law of sacrilege does not apply to them’. [The ruling that] no secular use may be made of them is Rabbinical,11 and that the law of sacrilege does not apply to them is Biblical. What is the reason? — It is written: If a soul commit a trespass and sin through ignorance.12 We draw an analogy between [the word] ‘sin’ here and sin mentioned in connection with terumah;13 and with reference to terumah it is written:
The children of Israel,14 [intimating] but not gentiles.15 ‘Nor are these subject to the law of piggul, nothar and uncleanness ; because in connection with uncleanness it is written: Speak unto Aaron and unto his sons that they separate themselves from the holy things of the children of Israel16..."
(16) Thus excluding gentiles.

As I can't find my own independent translation, and I'm not a Talmud scholar, I'll work, however grudgingly, with your text.

I would say that the entire passage is out of context. It says that no secular use could be made from something that was dedicated by a non-Jew for a holy purpose. I would imagine that the only purpose that such an item would be used was for its intended holy purpose.

Since Jews are commanded to be holy, and non-Jews are not, there are certain issues of falling out of holiness that do not apply to things that were brought by non-Jews that might apply to things brought by Jews.

The things wherein gentiles are excluded in your passage does NOT mean that non-Jews are excluded in general from more or less anything.

It would make your argument more intelligent if you actually knew what you were talking about, rather than pull a source that seems on the surface to say bad things about non-Jews.

 

[roberto]

........I'm not a Talmud scholar.

Thank you though for your effort you put into answering. I shall await replies of Talmud scholars.

An interesting question to you though......> Did not the Bat kol[voice from heaven] anounce that Hillel (הל&#1500 rulings will forthwith count ?

"..Then a bat kol, a voice from heaven, announced, Eilu v’eilu divrei Elohim Chayim, “These and those are the words of the Living God,” adding, “but the law is in agreement with the rulings of Beit Hillel.”..." >>read more here>>> http://urj.org/learning/torah/ten/eilu/
.

 

[Harmonious]

Thank you though for your effort you put into answering. I shall await replies of Talmud scholars.

An interesting question to you though......> Did not the Bat kol[voice from heaven] anounce that Hillel (הל&#1500 rulings will forthwith count ?
.

Perhaps. But you know... There are at least three separate rulings in Masechta Beitza that Hillel very specifically lost to Shamai.

So... Don't get your hopes up on this one, as I believe it is a misreading to start with.

Considering that it is one of the 13 principles of faith that Jews look forward to the Messiah from David until he gets here, I'm pretty sure that whatever else is going on in that Gemara, it wouldn't pan out to what seems to be prima facia.

 

[roberto]

Perhaps. But you know... There are at least three separate rulings in Masechta Beitza that Hillel very specifically lost to Shamai.

So... Don't get your hopes up on this one, as I believe it is a misreading to start with.

Considering that it is one of the 13 principles of faith that Jews look forward to the Messiah from David until he gets here, I'm pretty sure that whatever else is going on in that Gemara, it wouldn't pan out to what seems to be prima facia.

Interesting

Shalom my friend, I have to continue studying now.

Bye the way , I am now too sh_t scared to go to other posts for reason I might be blamed for following someone around or to go check out who a new poster is by clicking on his/her avatar and then get blamed for writing to a he instead of a she. A real catch 22.
.

 

[roberto]

Anything that claims to be the entire Babylonian Talmud in ONE VOLUME is seriously suspect. The whole Talmud is at least 24 volumes, and that's the short version.

Contents

Séder Z'ra'im:
B'rachot ................................................................... 4
Pé'ah.................................................................... 254
D'mai................................................................... 278
Kil'ayim ............................................................... 295
Sh'viy'it ................................................................ 324
T'rumot ................................................................ 352
Ma'asrot .............................................................. 383
Ma'asér Shéni...................................................... 398
��allah.................................................................. 414
Orlah ................................................................... 435
Bikkurim .............................................................. 451
Séder Mo'éd:
Shabbat................................................................ 462
Éruvin.................................................................. 973
P'sa��im.............................................................. 1465
Sh'kalim ............................................................. 1862
Yoma.................................................................. 1882
Sukkah ............................................................... 2153
Bétzah................................................................ 2343
Rosh Hashanah ................................................. 2471
Ta'anit ............................................................... 2582
M'gillah ............................................................. 2682
Mo'éd Katan ....................................................... 2809
��agigah............................................................. 2929
Séder Nashim:
Y'vamot.............................................................. 3038
K'tubbot ............................................................. 3637
N'darim.............................................................. 4131
Nazir.................................................................. 4311
Sotah.................................................................. 4474
Gittin ................................................................. 4646
Kiddushin .......................................................... 4912
Séder N'zikin:
Bava Kama........................................................ 5189
Bava M'tziy'a..................................................... 5634
Bava Batra ........................................................ 6053
Sanhedrin .......................................................... 6579
Makkot............................................................... 7089
Sh'vu'ot .............................................................. 7196
Éduyot ............................................................... 7391
Avodah Zarah..................................................... 7421
Avot ................................................................... 7648
Horayot ............................................................. 7703
Séder Kodoshim:
Z'va��im.............................................................. 7769
M'na��ot ............................................................. 8145
��ullin ................................................................ 8555
B'chorot ............................................................. 9049
Arachin.............................................................. 9293
T'murah ............................................................. 9412
K'ritot ................................................................ 9573
M'ilah ................................................................ 9704
Tammid.............................................................. 9754
Middot ............................................................... 9776
Kinnim............................................................... 9789
Séder Tohorot:
Kélim ................................................................. 9803
Oholot................................................................ 9887
N'ga'im .............................................................. 9932
Parah................................................................. 9971
Tohorot............................................................ 10003
Mikva'ot........................................................... 10037
Niddah............................................................. 10060
Mach'shirin ..................................................... 10404
Zavim............................................................... 10421
T'vul Yom......................................................... 10434
Yadayim........................................................... 10443​

Uk'tzin ............................................................. 10455

 

[Levite]

Contents

Séder Z'ra'im:
B'rachot ................................................................... 4
Pé'ah.................................................................... 254
...
Bava M'tziy'a..................................................... 5634
Bava Batra ........................................................ 6053....​

​

Just as an example, let's use the first tractate, Brachot. Your alleged translation of the Talmud in one volume lists this tractate at 200 pages.

The best concise translation of the tractate I have ever come across is the new Koren Steinsaltz Talmud Bavli Berakhot. The translation side alone (that is, not including the reproduced pages of the Aramaic original) is 417 pages, and even the commentator/editor R. Steinsaltz-- probably the greatest living Talmudist of our age-- acknowledges that his translation and commentary are only a beginning, and do not do full justice to the original.

The next best translation-- a full, non-concise one-- of Brachot that I know of is the Schottenstein Talmud Berachos, edited by Nosson Sherman. It is in two volumes, totalling 1264 pages. Whether Artscroll (the publishing house producing the edition) admits it or not, I can certainly vouch for the fact that it is still flawed, only a beginning, and does not do full justice to the original.

Brachot is one of the easier, clearer tractates of the Talmud.

If we look at one of the more difficult tractates, Bava Metzia, your volume lists it at 419 pages. The Schottenstein edition offers it in three volumes, totalling 1884 pages, at which length it is still dense and incredibly difficult to comprehend. And that's not even necessarily the most complex tractate in Talmud.

The idea of a "complete" Talmud in one volume-- even an impressively large volume-- simply is untenable. The original Talmud is 63 tractates, each containing the texts of the Mishnah and Gemara, the commentaries of Rashi, Tosafot, Rif, Rabbenu Chananel, and numerous others-- despite which fact, all Talmud scholars routinely consult commentaries not published in most volumes of Talmud. These things are all necessary to understand the Talmud in any meaningful way, to say nothing of beginning to actually apply what is in it to practical law and ritual life. (And saying nothing of the fact that students of Talmud must be painstakingly taught how to follow arguments, lines of reasoning, how to date passages, deconstruct them for meaning, understand attributions, and many more things-- incalculable length of lessons if quantified in numbers of written pages they might take up-- all of which is necessary before being able to truly grasp the Talmud with all the commentators and scholarly apparatus.)

Saying "The Entire Talmud In One Volume" is like saying "The Unabridged Encyclopedia Brittanica and Unabridged Oxford English Dictionary All In One Volume," only more so.

 

[roberto]

Just as an example, let's use the first tractate, Brachot. Your alleged translation of the Talmud in one volume lists this tractate at 200 pages.

The best concise translation of the tractate I have ever come across is the new Koren Steinsaltz Talmud Bavli Berakhot. The translation side alone (that is, not including the reproduced pages of the Aramaic original) is 417 pages, and even the commentator/editor R. Steinsaltz-- probably the greatest living Talmudist of our age-- acknowledges that his translation and commentary are only a beginning, and do not do full justice to the original.

The next best translation-- a full, non-concise one-- of Brachot that I know of is the Schottenstein Talmud Berachos, edited by Nosson Sherman. It is in two volumes, totalling 1264 pages. Whether Artscroll (the publishing house producing the edition) admits it or not, I can certainly vouch for the fact that it is still flawed, only a beginning, and does not do full justice to the original.

Brachot is one of the easier, clearer tractates of the Talmud.

If we look at one of the more difficult tractates, Bava Metzia, your volume lists it at 419 pages. The Schottenstein edition offers it in three volumes, totalling 1884 pages, at which length it is still dense and incredibly difficult to comprehend. And that's not even necessarily the most complex tractate in Talmud.

The idea of a "complete" Talmud in one volume-- even an impressively large volume-- simply is untenable. The original Talmud is 63 tractates, each containing the texts of the Mishnah and Gemara, the commentaries of Rashi, Tosafot, Rif, Rabbenu Chananel, and numerous others-- despite which fact, all Talmud scholars routinely consult commentaries not published in most volumes of Talmud. These things are all necessary to understand the Talmud in any meaningful way, to say nothing of beginning to actually apply what is in it to practical law and ritual life. (And saying nothing of the fact that students of Talmud must be painstakingly taught how to follow arguments, lines of reasoning, how to date passages, deconstruct them for meaning, understand attributions, and many more things-- incalculable length of lessons if quantified in numbers of written pages they might take up-- all of which is necessary before being able to truly grasp the Talmud with all the commentators and scholarly apparatus.)

Saying "The Entire Talmud In One Volume" is like saying "The Unabridged Encyclopedia Brittanica and Unabridged Oxford English Dictionary All In One Volume," only more so.

Hey, I did not determine the page sizes. But thanks for the information.
Perhaps you could supply a link where I can download free of charge one of these "upgraded" Talmuds ?
So I am driving a volkswagon and you are saying I should drive a Mertzedes Bentz .....I don't have the finances to do so.
.

 

[Tarheeler]

Hey, I did not determine the page sizes. But thanks for the information.
Perhaps you could supply a link where I can download free of charge one of these "upgraded" Talmuds ?
So I am driving a volkswagon and you are saying I should drive a Mertzedes Bentz .....I don't have the finances to do so.
.

A better analogy is that you're wanting to do scholarly work using nothing but Wikipedia.

The issue isn't page size; it's the fact that your reference provides incomplete, and therefore quite possibly inaccurate, information. The editions that both Harmonious and Levite refer to are not "upgraded" Talmuds, they are "the" Talmud.

 

[roberto]

A better analogy is that you're wanting to do scholarly work using nothing but Wikipedia.

The issue isn't page size; it's the fact that your reference provides incomplete, and therefore quite possibly inaccurate, information. The editions that both Harmonious and Levite refer to are not "upgraded" Talmuds, they are "the" Talmud.

What shall I say, now I have both a wikipedia Talmud and a wikipedia new testament.

 

[Levite]

Hey, I did not determine the page sizes. But thanks for the information.
Perhaps you could supply a link where I can download free of charge one of these "upgraded" Talmuds ?
So I am driving a volkswagon and you are saying I should drive a Mertzedes Bentz .....I don't have the finances to do so.
.

You get what you pay for, unfortunately; and there's no such thing as a free lunch.

It's not that you got a VW instead of a Mercedes, I'm saying that you've bought something that has slapped the logo for a Mercedes onto a Chrysler. It can't be what it says it is.

If you actually want to know and understand Talmud, the best thing you can do is to purchase the tractates volume by volume, slowly, and find classes taught by a reputable teacher of Talmud who can teach you how to make your way through what you've purchased. Trust me, it will take a long enough time that you'll be able to afford new volumes when you've finished those you have.

Or, even better, learn Hebrew and Aramaic, and you can get a set in the original.

 

[roberto]

You get what you pay for, unfortunately; and there's no such thing as a free lunch.

It's not that you got a VW instead of a Mercedes, I'm saying that you've bought something that has slapped the logo for a Mercedes onto a Chrysler. It can't be what it says it is.

If you actually want to know and understand Talmud, the best thing you can do is to purchase the tractates volume by volume, slowly, and find classes taught by a reputable teacher of Talmud who can teach you how to make your way through what you've purchased. Trust me, it will take a long enough time that you'll be able to afford new volumes when you've finished those you have.

Or, even better, learn Hebrew and Aramaic, and you can get a set in the original.

You seem to not understand the times we live in :
1. I have not got the money.
2. My Chryler will have to suffice.
3. When Moshiach arrives no one will need to learn Hebrew or Aramaic as the "order" Yahweh placed on tower of Babel people will be reversed, and no one will ask his neighbor if he knows Yahweh.

Yirmiyahu - Jeremiah - Chapter 31
33. And no longer shall one teach his neighbor or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16028/showrashi/true
.

 

[Levite]

You seem to not understand the times we live in :
1. I have not got the money.
2. My Chryler will have to suffice.
3. When Moshiach arrives no one will need to learn Hebrew or Aramaic as the "order" Yahweh placed on tower of Babel people will be reversed, and no one will ask his neighbor if he knows Yahweh.

Yirmiyahu - Jeremiah - Chapter 31
33. And no longer shall one teach his neighbor or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.
Yirmiyahu - Chapter 31 - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible
.

I understand the times we live in. I understand that we all make priorities about what is important to us, and we spend our money accordingly. And I understand that these days, many people feel that it is simply easier and less effort to blindly trust that the works of translators and editors is adequate for conveying whatever level of knowledge they need, than to devote the time and energy needed to learning how to read text properly in the language it was written in.

And the verse from Jeremiah you cited has nothing to do with learning Hebrew or Aramaic. It has to do with basic monotheistic theology as a universal concept, and with all Jews devoting time in their lives to learning Torah.

 

[roberto]

And the verse from Jeremiah you cited has nothing to do with learning Hebrew or Aramaic. It has to do with basic monotheistic theology as a universal concept, and with all Jews devoting time in their lives to learning Torah.

Yeh, and which Chrystler Talmud did you get that out of ?

 

[Levite]

Yeh, and which Chrystler Talmud did you get that out of ?

It's the standard interpretation of the verse. Radak, the Metzudat David, Malbim, the Mechaber, all the major commentators on Nach say versions of this same idea.

And though I don't recall the Rabbis of the Talmud dealing directly with this specific verse, it's hardly likely that they would envision a time when none needed to learn Hebrew or Aramaic, or needed to learn Torah, considering that one of their primary visions of the reward of the righteous in the World To Come is to sit beside the wisest souls in our people's history and to learn Torah with them for eternity.

It seems to be a consistent problem with your readings of Jewish text, that they are utterly foreign both to any extant tradition of interpretation known to Judaism, and they usually are directly at odds with the worldview and spirit of Jewish learning and scholarship. If you're going to cite Jewish text, it really might help you to learn something about it.

 

[roberto]

It's the standard interpretation of the verse. Radak, the Metzudat David, Malbim, the Mechaber, all the major commentators on Nach say versions of this same idea.

And though I don't recall the Rabbis of the Talmud dealing directly with this specific verse, it's hardly likely that they would envision a time when none needed to learn Hebrew or Aramaic, or needed to learn Torah, considering that one of their primary visions of the reward of the righteous in the World To Come is to sit beside the wisest souls in our people's history and to learn Torah with them for eternity.

It seems to be a consistent problem with your readings of Jewish text, that they are utterly foreign both to any extant tradition of interpretation known to Judaism, and they usually are directly at odds with the worldview and spirit of Jewish learning and scholarship. If you're going to cite Jewish text, it really might help you to learn something about it.

I thank heaven that you are not my rabbi.
You seem to hate everything I try to say and turn it on me as a person.
The following I found in my chrysler talmud , applicable to your answers with me :

Talmud - Mas. Pesachim 49b
Six thing were said of the ‘amme ha-arez’:
We do not commit testimony to them; we do not accept testimony from them; we do not reveal a secret to them...
Whoever studies the Torah in front of an ‘am ha-arez, is as though he cohabited with his betrothed in his presence..

'AM HA-AREZ
(b) an illiterate or uncultured man

Please concentrate your efforts with your students and leave me alone. I know I'm "an illiterate or uncultured man", no need for you to rub it in.
.

 

[Levite]

...You seem to hate everything I try to say and turn it on me as a person...Please concentrate your efforts with your students and leave me alone.

I have no interest in you as a person. My only interest is in responding to misrepresentative or problematic statements about Judaism and/or Jewish text.

If you post nothing of that nature, you will not hear from me.

 

[Harmonious]

^Deleted Post^

Levite isn't targeting you or your ignorance. He is a Rabbi and a scholar, and one of his jobs and joys is teaching what he knows.

He is expressing his thoughts concerning your consistent line of argumentation.

As far as he is concerned, especially as he just said, this isn't personal. YOU are taking his words far more personally than he has written them.

I'm not sure why, I only see that this is so.

 

[ForeverFaithful]

The ten commandments are a good summary of what God wants, most of them confirmed in the sermon on the mount

 

[Nakosis]

The ten commandments are a good summary of what God wants, most of them confirmed in the sermon on the mount

Oh good!
Then we can toss out the rest of the Bible?

I'm not trying to be rude or stupid but you have to think there is a point to the rest of the Bible being there.

 

[Shermana]

I understand the times we live in. I understand that we all make priorities about what is important to us, and we spend our money accordingly. And I understand that these days, many people feel that it is simply easier and less effort to blindly trust that the works of translators and editors is adequate for conveying whatever level of knowledge they need, than to devote the time and energy needed to learning how to read text properly in the language it was written in.

And the verse from Jeremiah you cited has nothing to do with learning Hebrew or Aramaic. It has to do with basic monotheistic theology as a universal concept, and with all Jews devoting time in their lives to learning Torah.

Doesn't it say that they will know the Law without being taught?