Why do Gentiles assume they should follow the ten commandments?

[Harmonious]

Doesn't it say that they will know the Law without being taught?

That will be because the Law will be so inherently understandable, because everyone around them is doing it, so people could see examples of how it works, that sitting and studying the theory would be unnecessary.

But actual law will always need to be taught to people who are as yet ignorant or otherwise unknowing.

 

[roberto]

Levite isn't targeting you or your ignorance. He is a Rabbi and a scholar, and one of his jobs and joys is teaching what he knows.

Then he should teach and stop discrediting. As I stated previously ...there is a whole lot of thumbsucking without any proof. Come place/paste the "better" translation verses here and add on positively to what is debated.

I mean have you ever seen a goi having a debate using Talmud[even a bad translation?] then why destroy/discredit even my weakest attempt ?

I'm not one of his students and deserves to be treated in the fasion that Torah says a goi should be treated by one of the Kingdom children.

Please do place/paste some verses and show that you want to teach , then goi can at least learn something other than what they know.

If this stance carries on I shall no longer use Talmud but will revert back to using xtian scriptures to reply or post and where does that leave the debate with Jews ? Is that what he wants to "teach" ?
.

 

[Harmonious]

Roberto, all of this would be a whole lot easier if you just asked what you wanted to know.

There has been so much back and forth, I'm afraid I've lost the plot. Which verse are you looking for, and what are you looking to better understand?

 

[Harmonious]

Then he should teach and stop discrediting. As I stated previously ...there is a whole lot of thumbsucking without any proof. Come place/paste the "better" translation verses here and add on positively to what is debated.

I mean have you ever seen a goi having a debate using Talmud[even a bad translation?]

Yes. Frequently. And the non-Jews involved were usually attempting to use the Talmud to either 1) prove that the Messiah has already come, 2) prove that the Rabbis in the Talmud encourage severe acts of cruelty, 3) take whatever was learned so far out of context, that Jews would have to be hypocrites to believe what was written or badly translated.

then why destroy/discredit even my weakest attempt ?

When a non-Jew tries to use the Talmud to show up Jews, it is usually an attempt to "call Jews out," attempting to make Jews look foolish, stupid, hypocritical, cruel, or some combination thereof.

You can see that this is not something that Jews are really interested in happening. And from the selections of text that you brought, it appeared that you were trying to do something similar.

You can hardly blame him for taking offense. I had taken offense as well, especially as you had spent several posts prior to this whole Talmud thing attacking ME, and attempting to make me and other Orthodox Jews look foolish when I gave you honest answers to whatever questions you asked.

But after the Mod intervention, I decided to give you a second chance, and I still tried to give an honest answer to the best of my ability, despite my misgivings.

At this point, I'm not really sure what you are looking for.

I'm always happy to try to answer an honest question, but I'm not sure what the question is, at present.

 

[roberto]

Yes. Frequently. And the non-Jews involved were usually attempting to use the Talmud to either 1) prove that the Messiah has already come, 2) prove that the Rabbis in the Talmud encourage severe acts of cruelty, 3) take whatever was learned so far out of context, that Jews would have to be hypocrites to believe what was written or badly translated.



When a non-Jew tries to use the Talmud to show up Jews, it is usually an attempt to "call Jews out," attempting to make Jews look foolish, stupid, hypocritical, cruel, or some combination thereof.

You can see that this is not something that Jews are really interested in happening. And from the selections of text that you brought, it appeared that you were trying to do something similar.

You can hardly blame him for taking offense. I had taken offense as well, especially as you had spent several posts prior to this whole Talmud thing attacking ME, and attempting to make me and other Orthodox Jews look foolish when I gave you honest answers to whatever questions you asked.

But after the Mod intervention, I decided to give you a second chance, and I still tried to give an honest answer to the best of my ability, despite my misgivings.

At this point, I'm not really sure what you are looking for.

I'm always happy to try to answer an honest question, but I'm not sure what the question is, at present.

Then ANSWER my Question/statement that I made previously :

Will sojourners to the scattered be given a new language[Hebrew/Aramaic] in the coming of the Messiah ?

 

[Harmonious]

Then ANSWER my Question/statement that I made previously :

Will sojourners to the scattered be given a new language[Hebrew/Aramaic] in the coming of the Messiah ?

I don't understand the question.

Will the ingathered tribes have to learn Hebrew or Aramaic? Is that the question?

If not, what do you mean?

It sounds like you are asking about something specific, something that comes from a verse used to describe a prophecy, but I have no idea what it is, where it's from, or the reference you are using.

 

[roberto]

You seem to not understand the times we live in :
1. I have not got the money.
2. My Chryler will have to suffice.
3. When Moshiach arrives no one will need to learn Hebrew or Aramaic as the "order" Yahweh placed on tower of Babel people will be reversed, and no one will ask his neighbor if he knows Yahweh.

Yirmiyahu - Jeremiah - Chapter 31
33. And no longer shall one teach his neighbor or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.
Yirmiyahu - Chapter 31 - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible
.

Please see item 3 above.
"....3. When Moshiach arrives no one will need to learn Hebrew or Aramaic as the "order" Yahweh placed on tower of Babel people will be reversed...."
.

 

[Harmonious]

Please see item 3 above.
"....3. When Moshiach arrives no one will need to learn Hebrew or Aramaic as the "order" Y- placed on tower of Babel people will be reversed...."
.

This is the first time I have heard this theory.

I'm pretty sure that, at the very least, all Jews will need to learn Hebrew, as during the time of Moshiach, the Jews will all live in Israel.

As far as the concept of the curse God put on humanity after the Tower of Babel, that is already more or less in the process. People learn different languages all the time, as Rosetta Stone, and other programs to help people learn languages are successfully teaching people.

After all this time, Hebrew is still the language Jews prefer to pray in. Hebrew and Aramaic will play a fundamental role in whatever will happen.

The idea that no one will have to learn Hebrew anymore isn't something I've ever heard before.

 

[roberto]

This is the first time I have heard this theory.

I'm pretty sure that, at the very least, all Jews will need to learn Hebrew, as during the time of Moshiach, the Jews will all live in Israel.

As far as the concept of the curse God put on humanity after the Tower of Babel, that is already more or less in the process. People learn different languages all the time, as Rosetta Stone, and other programs to help people learn languages are successfully teaching people.

After all this time, Hebrew is still the language Jews prefer to pray in. Hebrew and Aramaic will play a fundamental role in whatever will happen.

The idea that no one will have to learn Hebrew anymore isn't something I've ever heard before.

Thank you for being honest Harmonious. So if I have scriptural proof of my statement, would you not agree that we have both learned from one another ?
That is why I'm here, to learn from your scriptural placements and visa versa, not so ?
Should I place the reference ?

 

[Harmonious]

Thank you for being honest Harmonious. So if I have scriptural proof of my statement, would you not agree that we have both learned from one another ?

Sure. I don't guarantee that I'll agree with your conclusion, but I would find a new understanding of something I hadn't learned before.

That is why I'm here, to learn from your scriptural placements and visa versa, not so ?

More or less.

Should I place the reference ?

Yes, please.

 

[roberto]

Sure. I don't guarantee that I'll agree with your conclusion, but I would find a new understanding of something I hadn't learned before.

More or less.

Yes, please.

Zep 3:9 Denn alsdann will ich den Völkern die Sprache ändern, daß sie rein werde, daß sie alle des HERRN Namen anrufen und ihm einträchtig dienen.

 

[Shermana]

Zep 3:9 Denn alsdann will ich den Völkern die Sprache ändern, daß sie rein werde, daß sie alle des HERRN Namen anrufen und ihm einträchtig dienen.

I think your translation has "Speech" as in "Language" instead of "talk", the NIV, though I don't like it that much as a whole, correctly translates it as "Purify their speech" (lips) as in make them not talk about evil things. It's not about their specific language like German or French or Aramaic, but their "language" as in "Hey, watch your language!". Can "Sprache" also be used for how and what one talks about in addition to languages?

 

[roberto]

I think your translation has "Speech" as in "Language" instead of "talk", the NIV, though I don't like it that much as a whole, correctly translates it as "Purify their speech" (lips) as in make them not talk about evil things. It's not about their specific language like German or French or Aramaic, but their "language" as in "Hey, watch your language!". Can "Sprache" also be used for how and what one talks about in addition to languages?

Hi, Shermana , therefore it is always better to refer to the "Jewish" bible when pasting ?

Tzefaniah - Zephaniah - Chapter 3
9. For then I will convert the peoples to a pure language that all of them call in the name of the Lord, to worship Him of one accord. ?.
10. From the other side of the rivers of Cush, My supplicants, the community of My scattered ones-they shall bring Me an offering. ?.
From the other side of the rivers of Cush: They will bring Me an offering. :
My supplicants: those who pray to me. :
the community of My scattered ones: The gatherings of My scattered ones, whom I scattered.
Tzefaniah - Chapter 3 - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible
Use the above link Shermana and please make it part of your "favorites" as I have done.[its freely available online]
.

 

[Harmonious]

Hi, Shermana , therefore it is always better to refer to the "Jewish" bible when pasting ?

Tzefaniah - Zephaniah - Chapter 3
9. For then I will convert the peoples to a pure language that all of them call in the name of the Lord, to worship Him of one accord. ?.
10. From the other side of the rivers of Cush, My supplicants, the community of My scattered ones-they shall bring Me an offering. ?.
From the other side of the rivers of Cush: They will bring Me an offering. :
My supplicants: those who pray to me. :
the community of My scattered ones: The gatherings of My scattered ones, whom I scattered.
Tzefaniah - Chapter 3 - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible
Use the above link Shermana and please make it part of your "favorites" as I have done.[its freely available online]
.

Roberto, I don't see where this would mean that everyone stops learning Hebrew and/or Aramaic. The pure language would be Hebrew that everyone would learn, as Jews would live in Israel.

Everyone else would learn to pray in Hebrew, as the Jews do.

Either that, or the "pure language" refers to the words people use when speaking, such that no one would refer to idols or deities who are not God when praying.

 

[roberto]

Roberto, I don't see where this would mean that everyone stops learning Hebrew and/or Aramaic. The pure language would be Hebrew that everyone would learn, as Jews would live in Israel.

Everyone else would learn to pray in Hebrew, as the Jews do.

Either that, or the "pure language" refers to the words people use when speaking, such that no one would refer to idols or deities who are not God when praying.

Rule #6: “If the Plain Text Makes Perfect Sense, Seek No Other Sense.” >> As I read it in the plain text, it makes perfect sense to me Harmonious. Convert means convert.

If I converted to Judaism it means I changed from something to something else.[in this case to a pure language, Hebrew] it does not say that the Father will teach us , it says He will convert.
.

 

[Shermana]

Hi, Shermana , therefore it is always better to refer to the "Jewish" bible when pasting ?

Tzefaniah - Zephaniah - Chapter 3
9. For then I will convert the peoples to a pure language that all of them call in the name of the Lord, to worship Him of one accord. ?.
10. From the other side of the rivers of Cush, My supplicants, the community of My scattered ones-they shall bring Me an offering. ?.
From the other side of the rivers of Cush: They will bring Me an offering. :
My supplicants: those who pray to me. :
the community of My scattered ones: The gatherings of My scattered ones, whom I scattered.
Tzefaniah - Chapter 3 - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible
Use the above link Shermana and please make it part of your "favorites" as I have done.[its freely available online]
.

There is no "The" Jewish translation. The JPS and others are loaded with controversial and questionable translations on key passages that are heavily disputed. The only context for "pure language" I see fitting is in the context of "language" as in choice of words rather than Spanish, German, Aramaic, etc.

 

[Levite]

Tzefaniah - Zephaniah - Chapter 3
9. For then I will convert the peoples to a pure language that all of them call in the name of the Lord, to worship Him of one accord. ?.
10. From the other side of the rivers of Cush, My supplicants, the community of My scattered ones-they shall bring Me an offering. ?.
From the other side of the rivers of Cush: They will bring Me an offering. :
My supplicants: those who pray to me. :
the community of My scattered ones: The gatherings of My scattered ones, whom I scattered.
Tzefaniah - Chapter 3 - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible
Use the above link Shermana and please make it part of your "favorites" as I have done.[its freely available online]
.

Tzefaniah 3:9-10
כי אז אהפך אל עמים שפה ברורה לקרא כלם בשם ה' לעבדו שכם אחד׃ מעבר לנהרי כוש עתרי בת פוצי יובלון מנחתי׃
"At that time I shall invert for all peoples to clear speech, so that all may call out in Hashem's name to serve Him, all with the same urgency, as one. From across the rivers of Kush shall the descendant [lit. "daughter"] of my scattered ones offer incense to me, shall make offerings of my Jubilee."

According to all the major commentators on Tzefaniah (Rashi, Radak, Tzror ha-Mor, Metzudat David, Malbim), this means that in the aftermath of the apocalyptic war that Tzefaniah and some other prophets predict prior to the messianic age, some of the scattered communities from beyond the river of Kush shall return to the Land of Israel, and they shall bring with them communities of non-Jews who will convert to Judaism. At that time, all of these communities shall begin speaking Hebrew with one another, because as the Holy Language, it is the one that offers the best clarity for serving God.

Rule #6: “If the Plain Text Makes Perfect Sense, Seek No Other Sense.”

This rule, wherever it comes from, is utterly foreign to Jewish thought, and is incompatible with the way that Jews read Jewish text.

 

[roberto]

I prefer to go with the commentary Rashi gave of Tzefaniah - Zephaniah - Chapter 3 verse 9 which can be found at this link : > http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16202/showrashi/true

I believe Rashi understood how to read the Jewish Bible. no ?
Rule number one : don't fiddle with it if it's working :yes:
.

 

[roberto]

There is no "The" Jewish translation. The JPS and others are loaded with controversial and questionable translations on key passages that are heavily disputed. The only context for "pure language" I see fitting is in the context of "language" as in choice of words rather than Spanish, German, Aramaic, etc.

I agree.
What a bummer for all those trying to sell Hebrew courses ?:yes:

 

[Levite]

I prefer to go with the commentary Rashi gave of Tzefaniah - Zephaniah - Chapter 3 verse 9... I believe Rashi understood how to read the Jewish Bible. no ?

He did, but his commentary on these verses is both sparse and linguistically vague; which means for a fuller understanding of the verse, one must consult additional commentators, to contextualize and give depth to the few words Rashi offers-- none of which contravene or negate the fuller commentary I noted above.

Rule number one: don't fiddle with it if it's working

Again, I don't know whose rule this is, but it is a foreign concept to the Jewish approach to text.