Yes, nothing can work without your Oral law, we understand that. I mean, after 2000years of "light shining" , Christians still don't get it. [Stupid learners or stupid instructors?]
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Why do Gentiles assume they should follow the ten commandments?
- Thread starter Whoitbe
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Yes, nothing can work without your Oral law, we understand that. I mean, after 2000years of "light shining" , Christians still don't get it. [Stupid learners or stupid instructors?]
Paul changed nothing, it is that his writings are not understood by us stupid "christians".
I mean> Ask any christian what "mitzvot d 'oraita" or mitzvot d ' rabanan" or Torah sh ' b ' alpeh or Torah sh ' bektav mean and they go ..> huh !
Yet they quote galatians as defence of/for their "understanding"
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Shermana
Heretic
I often wonder if it was Paul himself or the stubborn Schismatic Gentilse who redefined everything he said to suit their anti-Judaizing convenience, James Scott Trimm has an interesting way of reading Galatians and such in a very pro-Law light.
However, few "Christians" will give any credence to the very idea that Paul could have possibly been anything but anti-Law. Because of this, it may be best to just hack off the sick limb.
Harmonious
Well-Known Member
You have entirely missed the point of my post.Yes, nothing can work without your Oral law, we understand that. I mean, after 2000years of "light shining" , Christians still don't get it. [Stupid learners or stupid instructors?]
At no point did I say anything demeaning to Christians. Heck, it's hard for Jews to understand it. We do everything to the best of our ability(for those of us who do), but understanding the symbolism isn't always easy.
A pup tent with branches is NOT a Sukka.
I wouldn't say that Christians are stupid. Just often seriously ill-informed. Especially if your images are supposed to represent Sukkot, among other things.
Harmonious
Well-Known Member
I assume that the chapters in Zecharia that prompted the question involves non-Jews attempting to keep Sukkot, and end up giving up in frustrated rebellion.
This prompted my longer post. I tried to describe in detail the reason for the frustration that Zecharia mentioned.
I hope you got the response you were looking for.
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Shermana
Heretic
No, take 2 minutes to read it. It says the Gentiles must go up to obey Succoth in Jerusalem or they get struck with plagues and droughts.
Harmonious
Well-Known Member
There is a different passage that I was thinking of. I will, when it's not two minutes before Shabbat.
Is the question, then, why Sukkot and not Passover?
Passover is considered private between the Jews, whom God rescued from the bondage of Egypt and made a nation for Himself. No one is permitted to partake of the Passover offering except Jews, whether born or converted. Full stop.
Sukkot is a holiday that is supposed to celebrate the Jews traveling in the Desert within the Clouds of Glory, but the way that the sacrificial offerings work, it is clear that merit for the holiday is shared with the nations of the world, as over the course of the seven day holiday, 70 of one particular animal (I'll look it up later) is supposed to be brought, and 70 represents "the 70 nations of the world".
And you think we are not supposed to try ?
Then go to Google images and fill in "Sukkah" ,......come back and insert an image you would let us understand is more to your liking. come now, please share more of "your light"
You are complaining but not informing, like a mother/father that tells a child not to,... but never gives the reason.
Aha Sire, but are you perhaps conveniently forgetting someone else ? : >
Eze 38:7 Be prepared, yes, prepare yourself, you, and all your companies ,,,,,HUH ? ......So every person who wants to go up to the coming Kingdom must prepare ?
Eze 38:8 After many days you shall be visited: in the latter years you shall come into the land that is brought back from the sword, that is gathered out of many peoples, on the mountains of Israel, which have been a continual waste; but it is brought forth out of the peoples, and they shall dwell securely, all of them.
Eze 46:3 The people of the land shall worship at the door of that gate before the LORD on the Sabbaths and on the new moons.
Eze 46:9 But when the people of the land shall come before the LORD in the appointed feasts.......
Eze 47:21 So you shall divide this land to you according to the tribes of Israel.
Eze 47:22 It shall happen, that you shall divide it by lot for an inheritance to you and to the aliens who live among you, who shall father children among you; and they shall be to you as the native-born among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.
Eze 47:23 It shall happen, that in what tribe the stranger lives, there you shall give him his inheritance, says the Lord GOD.
Mat 5:14 You are the light of the world. A city located on a hill can’t be hidden.
Mat 5:15 Neither do you light a lamp, and put it under a measuring basket, but on a stand; and it shines to all who are in the house.
Mat 5:16 Even so, let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
You are the light of the world....... Huh ? Harmonious, should goyim in your opinion not prerare/train for going up to the Kingdom ? Will the coming Kingdom thus exist out of only Judah/Jews in your opinion? A one tribed Kingdom?
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Harmonious
Well-Known Member
I don't understand the question. I know that there are some people who don't try. I never said that people shouldn't.
Sure thing.
The Sukkah Project
You accused me of calling Christian teachers and students stupid. I never did.
I said they were wrong. Not stupid.
What are you trying to say here?
Not sure your impetus for vicious sarcasm, but dude - I'm a woman.
Actually, the context is more along the lines of explaining that at the end of days, there would be the war of Gog and Magog, and while raging against the non-Jewish nations who were evil to Jews during our time of exile, God warns via the prophet that those evil people would be cut down.
The being prepared is more like a warning: brace yourselves, because you won't like what's coming.
More of the same.
Okay... I fail to see what point you mean to draw out from this.
This is more or less contingent upon the idea that the non-Jews, or "strangers" and "aliens" you mention would convert to Judaism, so that they would have a place amongst the tribes.
As it stands, converts don't have a tribe. During the time being described by Ezekiel, converts would indeed be absorbed into the tribes.
You do realize that I don't assign the Christian scriptures any useful meaning other than to understand what Christians believe, right?
I think you are seriously misinformed of the context of the passages in the Hebrew scriptures to make them mean what you want them to mean, to subscribe to your belief system.
But as long as the Jews work to complete as many as we can of the 613 commandments (or 620, since the advent of Purim and Chanuka), and non-Jews work on fulfilling the Seven Commandments of Noah, we are all doing what we need to do to serve God. And to belong to whatever kingdom you are hoping to be a part of.
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Harmonious
Well-Known Member
Ah. I read the chapters you mentioned, Zechariah Chapters 12 to the end.
I think the verse I had in mind was a different one.
In any event, the prophet speaks of people being of one accord, and sharing the same beliefs.
Sukkot happens to be the holiday wherein the world is judged for the rainfall. That would explain why - if the non-Jews, who are then supposed to believe in God the way Jews do (even while not being Jews) would be plagued with droughts, as they would be judged negatively.
Levite
Higher and Higher
Oh, they make nice sukkot. My folks have one of theirs, and we just inherited one from one of my wife's congregants, this past Sukkot. Very handy.
And you really can imagine people fleeing into the desert carrying iron poles with them [each pole about 7ft] or solid wooden frames [7ft x 2x3 inces x8] not to speak of solid wooden chairs ? [What Century are you guys living in ?]
Same thing after 2000years.
As do all Judaism Jews.
Convert to Judaism and thus we will have a one-tribed Kingdom called "the Jews". Please indicate to me who the redeemer was/is of all those "tribes" whom have returned to Israel as of late.
I have no problem with this as I myself don't assign any usefull meaning to the Talmud other than to understand what Jews believe.[It would be great if Jews would paste a few references to the Talmud though].
You may believe/think as you wish, one question though... Do you believe we are in the last generation period ?
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Harmonious
Well-Known Member
Dude, the construction of a Sukka is relatively simple. They DID have cloth to use for walls. They did have the wherewithal to make poles for the frames.
The furnishings inside aren't as important as the actual structure itself.
But I see that you aren't really interested in my answers, as much as you are looking to pick a fight.
Christians believe in Jesus, for one reason or another. Even after 2000 years. So, yeah. I'm going with misinformed. Not stupid.
Actually, I was asking you to explain your argument. But you would much rather be argumentative than usefully explain your position so I could address it.
But why does anyone need to convert to Judaism? I'm not seeing your point.
Non-Jews are just as beloved. Just different than Jews.
What, in the name of all that is pink and fuzzy, are you attempting to say?
You know what... I don't really care anymore.
If you don't find any useful meaning in the Talmud, then what use would it be to you if we posted references to it?
Again, this is just you being argumentative without purpose.
I hope so.
I've answered your questions respectfully and have received nothing but scorn in return.
I'm beginning to fail to see the point in responding to you, as you can't answer a question respectfully or decently.
You put rude words in my mouth, and I can't see the point in continuing to argue with you.
Proves the point that you are living in the past with reference to the Sukkah. What about the coming Exodus/escape to the hills ? Are you conna use modern technology ?[Super light poles/frames]
We are communicating from two timeframes as you guys are not preparing for what is coming and use the same "head in the sand" attitude as Christians.
You should read what your Talmud suggests about jeshu to get properly informed about Christianity.
Wow, you should ask your Rabbi that.
This attitude has kept xtianity for 2000years.
Battered housewife syndrom.
Please indicate to me who the redeemer was/is of all those "tribes" whom have returned to Israel as of late.
I believe for you Judaism women there are many, many, less laws to complete than the 613 or 620 ? Even my Messiah Yeshua did not complete the 613.
I respect your using your Talmud even if I think the oral law was not pased down from generation to generation so why do you not respect my using my "new testament" even if you think it was/is a shambles ? Point out to me one instance where my "new testament" refers to 7 noahide laws please. Remember that my Messiah came to take away "gates" around the Torah which is exactly what your Talmud does.
The Kingdom I 're hoping to be part of will definitaly not exist out of one tribe to which every one will have to convert to Judaism.
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Harmonious
Well-Known Member
No one person could do all 613 commandments. There are commandments specifically for men who are Cohanim. No one else can do them. There are commandments specifically for men who are Levi'im. No one else can do them. There are commandments specifically for men who are from any other tribe, or no tribe at all.
There are commandments, specific to married couples. There are commandments specific to farmers. There are commandments specific to people who own houses with flat roofs. There are commandments specific to poor people. There are commandments specific to rich people.
There are commandments specific to parents. There are commandments specific to children with living parents.
There are commandments specific to kings.
In order to complete the full complement of commandments, Jews would need to be in a Jewish community, in Israel, when the Temple is standing.
Some commandments involve situations which are either over, or impossible to do. We aren't held accountable for not doing the impossible.
The better point is in understanding WHY you thought to bring it as a proof.
If I wanted to bring an explanation that furthered why Jews do what we do, I might bring a passage from the Talmud as proof. If I wanted to explain to you why YOU should believe as I do, bringing a quote from a set of texts you don't believe in isn't going to convince you of anything.
If I wanted to convince you to believe as I do, I would attempt to bring proofs from texts that we both agree that we believe in.
They aren't there. As a matter of fact, they are not found in any scriptures in a nice, neat little list.
I have a nice link that explains everything very nicely, but for a quick start, I'll post the relevant part here:
1. Do Not Murder.
The edict against murder is stated in Genesis 9:6: "Whoever sheds the blood of man, among man, his blood shall be shed; for in the image of G-d He made man."
2. Do Not Have Forbidden Sexual Relations.
Five of the six types of relations which are forbidden by G-d to Gentiles are covered in Gen. 2:24: "Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and cling to his wife and they shall become one flesh." This verse explicitly forbids relations with one's mother, one's father's wife, a wife of another man, another male, and an animal. A Gentile is also forbidden to have relations with his maternal sister, which is learned from Gen. 20:13: "Moreover, she is indeed my sister, my father's daughter, though not my mother's daughter; and she became my wife." (Note that Abraham said this to appease Abimelech. It was actually only figuratively true in his case, since Sarah was the daughter of Abraham's brother. So they had the same paternal grandfather, who people often referred to as "father".) It also was universally accepted that father-daughter relations would be included, as evidenced by the disgrace of Lot after he had relations with his two daughters, following G-d's destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen. 19:29-36, and Rashi's explanation of Gen. 20:1). Relations of a female with a female are likewise an abomination to G-d which is included as one of the subjects of the verse Lev. 18:3, which speaks against the immoral practices of the ancient Egyptians and Canaanites, and which Lev. 18:30 refers to as "abominable traditions." About these the Midrash (Sifra) specifies: "A man would marry a man, a woman would marry a woman, and a woman would be married to two men."
3. Do Not Commit Theft.
The prohibition of theft is contained within the permission which G-d granted to Adam and Eve in Genesis 2:16 to eat from the trees of the garden. This implies that if the permission had not been granted, they would have been forbidden to do so, because the property did not belong to them. This applied specifically to the fruit of the Tree of "Knowledge of Good and Evil" which was forbidden for them to take, under penalty of death (Genesis 2:17).
(Note that Adam and Eve were not given permission to eat animals, so all humans were constrained to be vegetarians until after the Flood. G-d permitted the eating of meat for the first time to Noah and his family after they left the Ark, which is why G-d at that time added the seventh commandment, which prohibits the eating of flesh removed from a living animal.)
4. Establish Laws and Courts of Justice.
This can be learned from the story of Shechem, Dinah, and the sons of Jacob. In Genesis 34:2 it relates, "Shechem, son of Hamor the Hivvite, the prince of the land, saw her; he took her, and he lay with her, and violated her." His "taking" her against her will was a form of kidnapping, which was forbidden as a type of theft. Since the men of Shechem's city did not convene a court of justice and convict him for his crimes, they failed to obey this commandment and also collectively became accomplices to his crime. Jacob's sons therefore formed a court, convicted them, and executed them.
5. Don't Eat Flesh Taken From a Live Animal.
This commandment (the seventh) was given to Noah in Genesis 9:4. ("Nevertheless, you may not eat flesh with its life, which is its blood.")
6. Do Not Commit Blasphemy.
Leviticus 24:10-17 relates the incident of a Jew who violated the injunction of Exodus 22:27 and blasphemed in anger, and the Divine edict proclaiming this to be a capital offense. Moreover, it states there "ish ish (any man) who curses his G-d shall bear his sin." Why the double _expression of ish ish (literally: a man, a man)? To include all mankind, Jews and Gentiles. This demonstrates that blasphemy thus is prohibited to Gentiles as a capital offense even as it is for Jews. (Sanhedrin 56a)
The source for the remaining law, which prohibits worship of false gods, is explained below.
But first note that the recounting and recording of the Seven Noahide Laws by Moses took place at Mt. Sinai, two days before G-d spoke the Ten Utterances in Ex. 20:1-14. In Exodus 24:3, it says "Moses came [before G-d spoke the Ten Utterances] and told the people all the words of G-d and ALL THE LAWS ..." The words "all the laws" refer to the Seven Noahide Laws and three additional Jewish laws, which the Children of Israel had already been commanded before they arrived at Mt. Sinai. (Moses told this total of 10 laws to the Israelites at Marah, after they crossed through the sea - see Exodus 15:25.) The next verse, Exodus 24:4, states that "Moses wrote all the words of G-d ..." These words were the Book of Genesis, which contains the Noahide Covenant and the Noahide Laws, and the Book of Exodus up to that point. G-d thus commanded the Jewish People at that time to remember the Noahide Laws, to teach them to all the nations of the world for all generations, and to provide for the establishment of Noahide courts in the Land of Israel for those Gentiles who choose to live there.
My source: Noahide.org - Noahide Laws Sources
I would post more, but it also references heavily the Oral Law, and you don't seem to appreciate that. So I won't.
Um, no. The Talmud, if anything, puts UP gates around the Torah, so that we don't come to make a mistake and commit a sin.
So things that aren't specifically prohibited by direct Torah law, ARE prohibited by the Rabbis, so that we don't accidentally come to do that which was prohibited by direct Torah law.
I'm not going to give you a whole listing here and now, but I might give you a few examples later. Maybe.
Well, that's good. No one ever said that non-Jews have to convert to Judaism. Not my rabbis, or any rabbis.
If anything, the suggestion is to get Jews to be more observant of the Torah that we already have, and to get non-Jews to observe the Noachide Laws.
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Please keep it civil, everyone. Keep Rule 3 in mind when posting:
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We recognize three areas of unacceptable trolling (Please note that these apply to PMs, signature lines, frubal comments, and visitor messages as well, if they are reported):
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Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
festival of booths was a celebration of in-gathering....harvest. It marked the end of the major part of the agricultural year for Israel. It was, therefore, a time of rejoicing and thanksgiving for all the blessings Jehovah had given in the fruitage of all their crops.
Jesus gave an illustration in which he likened mankind to a field that was ripe for 'harvesting' ...thus the literal festival prefigured the work of the messiah of bringing the nations back to God.
But the passover was significant of the Messiah himself in his role as the sacrificed lamb of God. Those who acted in obedience to paint the blood of the lamb on their doorposts were saved. So it is with Christians who put faith in the redeeming value of Christs blood...salvation will be possible for them too.
Please forgive me using the Talmud to try and explain why I have been ..................?:
The Complete Babylonian Talmud
in one volume
Talmud - Mas. Sanhedrin 98b
R. Simlai expounded: What is meant by, Woe unto you, that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light.?39 This may be compared to a c_ck and a bat who were hopefully waiting for the light [i.e., dawn]. The c_ck said to the bat, ‘I look forward to the light, because I have sight; but of what use is the light to thee?’40
(40) Thus Israel should hope for the redemption, because it will be a day of light to them: but why should the Gentiles, seeing that for them it will be a day of darkness?
So basically what the above means is that Gentiles should be kept in the dark......., like mushrooms?.
Talmud - Mas. Sanhedrin 99a
R. Hillel7 said: There shall be no Messiah for Israel,8 because they have already enjoyed him in the days of Hezekiah. R. Joseph said: May God forgive him [for saying so]. Now, when did Hezekiah flourish? During the first Temple. Yet Zechariah, prophesying in the days of the second, proclaimed, Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion, shout, O daughter of Jerusalem, behold, thy king cometh unto thee! he is just, and having salvation, lowly, and riding upon an a_s, and upon a colt the foal of an a_s.9
(8) But the Almighty will himself redeem israel and reign over them (Rashi). [‘He may have been prompted to this declaration by Origen's professed discovery in the Old Testament of Messianic passages referring to the founder of Christianity’ (J.E. VI, 401).]
(9) Zech. IX, 9.
What a surprise that the Almighty himself will redeem Israel and that no Messiah will come for them ?
Talmud - Mas. T'murah 3a
"...The Master said: ‘No secular use may be made of dedications of a gentile, but the law of sacrilege does not apply to them’. [The ruling that] no secular use may be made of them is Rabbinical,11 and that the law of sacrilege does not apply to them is Biblical. What is the reason? — It is written: If a soul commit a trespass and sin through ignorance.12 We draw an analogy between [the word] ‘sin’ here and sin mentioned in connection with terumah;13 and with reference to terumah it is written:
The children of Israel,14 [intimating] but not gentiles.15 ‘Nor are these subject to the law of piggul, nothar and uncleanness ; because in connection with uncleanness it is written: Speak unto Aaron and unto his sons that they separate themselves from the holy things of the children of Israel16..."
(16) Thus excluding gentiles.
Am I correct in assuming that this is one of the reasons for us Gentiles being excluded from Torah ?
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Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
the calamity mankind experiences when they forget their maker. Plagues and drought bring with them death.
mankind who refuse to submit to Gods rulership will experience death.