Why do Gentiles assume they should follow the ten commandments?

[Nakosis]

To what extent do gentiles not want to follow the Law? What is such a burden? Is switching to Turkey bacon a burden? It's the bacon isn't it.

They might do so just to be more healthy but for them they have no religious requirement to do so.

 

[Pegg]

Ok. People have always been passive. How is this prophetic? If I say, "The sky is blue," that's not prophetic.

it means that when Jesus is in power in his heavenly position, people will not recognize it...they will continue to go about their lives as if he were not there.

 

[roberto]

Joh 8:28[HNV] Yeshua therefore said to them, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and I do nothing of myself, but as my Father taught me, I say these things.
Joh 12:34 The multitude answered him, "We have heard out of the law that the Messiah remains forever.[6] How do you say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up?’ Who is this Son of Man?"

Go check out what was written above his head when he was "lifted up" : Yeshua Ha’Netzeret V‘mlech Ha’Yehudim
Why do you think the chief priests complained to Pilate ? :
Joh 19:21[HNV] The chief priests of the Judeans therefore said to Pilate, "Don’t write, ‘The King of the Jews,’ but, ‘he said, I am King of the Jews.’"
Joh 19:22 Pilate answered, "What I have written, I have written."

Eze 7:1[HNV] Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
Eze 7:2 You, son of man, thus says the Lord GOD to Eretz-Israel, An end: the end has come on the four corners of the land.
Eze 7:3 Now is the end on you, and I will send my anger on you, and will judge you according to your ways; and I will bring on you all your abominations.
Eze 7:4 My eye shall not spare you, neither will I have pity; but I will bring your ways on you, and your abominations shall be in the midst of you: and you shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 7:5 Thus says the Lord GOD: An evil, an only evil; behold, it comes.
Eze 7:6 An end has come, the end has come; it awakes against you; behold, it comes.
Eze 7:7 Your doom has come to you, inhabitant of the land: the time has come, the day is near, a day of tumult, and not of joyful shouting, on the mountains.
Eze 7:8 Now will I shortly pour out my wrath on you, and accomplish my anger against you, and will judge you according to your ways; and I will bring on you all your abominations.
Eze 7:9 My eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: I will bring on you according to your ways; and your abominations shall be in the midst of you; and you shall know that I, the LORD, do strike.
Eze 7:10 Behold, the day, behold, it comes: your doom is gone forth; the rod has blossomed, pride has budded.
Eze 7:11 Violence has risen up into a rod of wickedness. None of them shall remain, nor of their multitude, nor of their wealth. There shall be nothing of value among them.
Eze 7:12 The time has come, the day draws near: don’t let the buyer rejoice, nor the seller mourn; for wrath is on all its multitude.
Eze 7:13 For the seller shall not return to that which is sold, although they be yet alive: for the vision is touching the whole multitude of it, none shall return; neither shall any strengthen himself in the iniquity of his life.
Eze 7:14 They have blown the shofar[1], and have made all ready; but none goes to the battle; for my wrath is on all its multitude.
Eze 7:15 The sword is outside, and the pestilence and the famine within: he who is in the field shall die with the sword: and he who is in the city, famine and pestilence shall devour him.
Eze 7:16 But those of those who escape shall escape, and shall be on the mountains like doves of the valleys, all of them moaning, every one in his iniquity.
Eze 7:17 All hands shall be feeble, and all knees shall be weak as water.
Eze 7:18 They shall also clothe themselves with sackcloth, and horror shall cover them; and shame shall be on all faces, and baldness on all their heads.
Eze 7:19 They shall cast their silver in the streets, and their gold shall be as an unclean thing; their silver and their gold shall not be able to deliver them in the day of the wrath of the LORD: they shall not satisfy their souls, neither fill their bowels; because it has been the stumbling block of their iniquity.
Eze 7:20 As for the beauty of his ornament, he set it in majesty; but they made the images of their abominations and their detestable things therein: therefore have I made it to them as an unclean thing.
Eze 7:21 I will give it into the hands of the strangers for a prey, and to the wicked of the earth for a spoil; and they shall profane it.
Eze 7:22 My face will I turn also from them, and they shall profane my secret place; and robbers shall enter into it, and profane it.
Eze 7:23 Make the chain; for the land is full of bloody crimes, and the city is full of violence.
Eze 7:24 Therefore I will bring the worst of the nations, and they shall possess their houses: I will also make the pride of the strong to cease; and their holy places shall be profaned.
Eze 7:25 Destruction comes; and they shall seek peace, and there shall be none.
Eze 7:26 Mischief shall come on mischief, and rumor shall be on rumor; and they shall seek a vision of the prophet; but the law shall perish from the priest, and counsel from the elders.
Eze 7:27 The king shall mourn, and the prince shall be clothed with desolation, and the hands of the people of the land shall be troubled: I will do to them after their way, and according to their own judgments will I judge them; and they shall know that I am the LORD.

If we do not learn the mistakes of the past, history WILL repeat itself.
.

 

[roberto]

it means ..........is in power in his heavenly position..

Yeshua will rule from his earthly position[Israel].
His bride[12 tribes] will be with him on earth[Israel]
Any one from the Nations may join them like Ruth did.
.

 

[Pegg]

Yeshua will rule from his earthly position[Israel].
His bride[12 tribes] will be with him on earth[Israel]
Any one from the Nations may join them like Ruth did.
.

according to Daniel, the messiah is in close proximity to God

Daniel 7:13 “I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin

how could an earthly king gain access to the heavenly realm?

 

[roberto]

according to Daniel, the messiah is in close proximity to God

Daniel 7:13 “I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin

how could an earthly king gain access to the heavenly realm?

Ever studied Messiah son of Joseph and Messiah son of David ?

Do not fear, I know Christians want to go to heaven when they die but ask yourself this; Why would "jesus" come back to earth and leave his bride in heaven for 1000years ?

 

[Pegg]

Ever studied Messiah son of Joseph and Messiah son of David ?

Do not fear, I know Christians want to go to heaven when they die but ask yourself this; Why would "jesus" come back to earth and leave his bride in heaven for 1000years ?

jesus never said he'd be back in the flesh....he said "just a little while longer and the world will behold me no more" which indicates that he would not be back in the flesh.

But he did say he would be coming 'on the clouds of heaven' and I dont think its possible for a phyiscal person to do that.

As for going to heaven, well i dont have a desire to go there, but i do have a desire to remain on earth

 

[gerobbins]

Whether you think that Torah was given by God to the Jewish people, or whether you think that Torah was written by Jewish authors for the Jewish people, the point remains the same. It's a Jewish text, with Jewish rules, intended for Jews, and designed to be interpreted by Jewish methodologies.

I get that Christians feel that somehow their covenant with Jesus entitles them to connect to Jewish text. But I have never understood the contention that while Jesus' covenant somehow frees them from the obligation to keep the commandments of the Old Covenant, they still free free to cite and rely upon those of the commandments that they like or relate to (like the Ten Commandments, or, in many cases those concerning homosexuality and other forbidden sexual relations; but they can dispense with those that they dislike or do not relate to, like keeping kosher, rules of shaatnez (forbidden mixtures, like linen and wool), or observing the holidays.

It's always seemed to me that Torah, and the obligation to do mitzvot (commandments) is entire: one either accepts the entirety of Torah and the attendant obligations, or one accepts none of it. But in Torah there is no rule of halfsies: one can redefine certain obligations using the rules of halakhah, but one cannot simply cherry-pick a few mitzvot you like, and then dispense with all of those you feel are too confining or troublesome, with a shrug and a whistle.

At least, that's how I understand things.

As a Christian this is what I don't understand: Why don't Christians observe Jewish holidays and traditions? I mean Jesus was Jewish and he observed the traditions such as Passover etc... So why don't Christians?

I mean really?

 

[sojourner]

As a Christian this is what I don't understand: Why don't Christians observe Jewish holidays and traditions? I mean Jesus was Jewish and he observed the traditions such as Passover etc... So why don't Christians?

I mean really?

Because most of us aren't Jewish. Most of us are Gentile.

 

[roberto]

jesus never said he'd be back in the flesh....he said "just a little while longer and the world will behold me no more" which indicates that he would not be back in the flesh.

jesus will never be back as he never was here in the first place but Yeshua the true Messiah will be back :

Amo 9:11 In that day I will raise up the tent of David who is fallen, and close up its breaches, and I will raise up its ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old;
Amo 9:12 that they may possess the remnant of Edom, and all the nations who are called by my name," says the LORD who does this.

Act 15:16[HNV] ‘After these things I will return.
I will again build the tabernacle of David, which has fallen.
I will again build its ruins.
I will set it up..]

Don't you believe him ?
What is this thing called "tabernacle of David" and when did it " fall " , Pegg ?

 

[Shermana]

As a Christian this is what I don't understand: Why don't Christians observe Jewish holidays and traditions? I mean Jesus was Jewish and he observed the traditions such as Passover etc... So why don't Christians?

I mean really?

That's what Jesus intended for them to do from the start. It was Paul who apparently changed things.

 

[sojourner]

That's what Jesus intended for them to do from the start. It was Paul who apparently changed things.

among others. But then, Jesus was leading a group of Jews. Had his ministry been more cosmopolitan in nature, what would he have advocated?

 

[Pegg]

As a Christian this is what I don't understand: Why don't Christians observe Jewish holidays and traditions? I mean Jesus was Jewish and he observed the traditions such as Passover etc... So why don't Christians?

I mean really?

Paul helped jewish christians understand why they had become discharged from the law using a really good illustration in the letter to the Romans:

Romans 7:1 Can it be that YOU do not know, brothers, (for I am speaking to those who know law,) that the Law is master over a man as long as he lives? 2 For instance, a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is alive; ...But if her husband dies, she is free from his law, so that she is not an adulteress if she becomes another man’s.
4 So, my brothers, YOU also were made dead to the Law through the body of the Christ, that YOU might become another’s, the one’s who was raised up from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God

Christians were to abide by the law of the Christ which they understood to be the 'law of love'
By striving to live by the law of love, they are in effect fulfilling the mosaic law because Jesus said that love fulfills the law.
Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.

As regards the festivals and observances, they are strictly for those living under the mosaic law....christians though are living by a different law - the law of Christ.
1Cor 9:21 To those without law I became as without law, although I am not without law toward God but under law toward Christ

so to turn to the mosaic law, we would have to forego living under Christ as our shephard and turn back to Moses....and if you want to do that you might as well become a Jewish proselyte and forget that Jesus is the Messiah.

 

[Shermana]

In Zeceriah 14, at the end times, the gentiles have to go to Jerusalem to celebrate the feasts or they get crushing plagues and droughts.

 

[Pegg]

In Zeceriah 14, at the end times, the gentiles have to go to Jerusalem to celebrate the feasts or they get crushing plagues and droughts.

It is what Jerusalem and the festivals 'represent' that Gentiles celebrate.

 

[Shermana]

It is what Jerusalem and the festivals 'represent' that Gentiles celebrate.

Of course. And I imagine that everything in Zecheriah 12 and 13 and 14 up until that part is literal, right? Isn't that always the case, the one part that proves them wrong is somehow metaphorical.

Feel free to explain what celebrating Succoth means as opposed to celebrating Passover, in your metaphorical view.

 

[Harmonious]

Of course. And I imagine that everything in Zecheriah 12 and 13 and 14 up until that part is literal, right? Isn't that always the case, the one part that proves them wrong is somehow metaphorical.

Feel free to explain what celebrating Succoth means as opposed to celebrating Passover, in your metaphorical view.

Passover is easy to understand. There was slavery, there was freedom. God was responsible. And the biggest event to deal with as a holiday is not only the offerings, but the family, the retelling of the story, and the meal, where everything symbolic is relatively easy to grasp.

Sukot is, from start to finish, practically mystical in its symbolism. Further, besides the holiday sacrifices described, NOTHING has its details written in the Torah. This holiday, in order to even VAGUELY grasp it seriously involves Oral Law, tradition, and trust in the teachers that the oral everything is right.

From the living out in the Sukkot, or the booths, to what they are supposed to look like, to what they are made of... To the Four Species, and what they are supposed to be, and when and where and HOW to wave them. To the Hakafot, or the marching around the shul or with the Four Species. To the Welcoming of the seven spiritual guests (and they are mentioned where? Only in Oral Traditions, nowhere else...).

To WHY, in heaven's name, are people supposed to sit in Sukkot outside when the weather is just turning cold and rainy.

Passover is practical, and relatively easy to understand. Sukkot has lots of physical commandments, but understanding WHY the commandments... not so much.

I've heard of lots of Christians hold their own version of Passover Sederim. I have never heard of a Christian all that interested in trying to figure out Sukkot, even when I've met a Christian who more or less venerated the concept, in his own way, completely ignoring the commandments involved.

That is my take on this.

 

[javajo]

Most of the Ten Commandments were given again in the NT to Christians, not to save us or help keep us saved, but because they are the right thing to do, don't kill, commit adultery, lie, steal, etc. And the NT Jewish Christians began to meet on Sunday and give their offerings then. They call it the Lord's Day in the NT because of the great significance of Christ's resurrection on that day. For we are under a new covenant or testament, or contract, brought about by the death of the testator, Jesus. We have the Law, not on hard tablets of stone, but written in our hearts made soft by the love of God who died for us. We do not judge others for honoring or not honoring any 'holy' day or sabbath or new moon or whatnot. Galatians is all about folks falling from the grace of Christ through faith and turning back to the Law. The greatest thing God did because he loved us was to send his Son to die for us, to pay a debt he did not owe for people who had a debt they could not pay. That is the significance.

 

[roberto]

Paul helped jewish christians understand why they had become discharged from the law using a really good illustration in the letter to the Romans:
Romans 7:1 Can it be that YOU do not know, brothers, (for I am speaking to those who know law,) that the Law is master over a man as long as he lives?
2 For instance, a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is alive; ...But if her husband dies, she is free from his law, so that she is not an adulteress if she becomes another man’s.
4 So, my brothers, YOU also were made dead to the Law through the body of the Christ, that YOU might become another’s, the one’s who was raised up from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God

You are mixing aples and pears my dear.
What Paul is explaining here is that the whoring Northern tribes needed a redeemer and that to redeem[buy back] these tribes Yeshua would have to die otherwise the Law of "the old testament" would make the Northern tribes "a whore", if Yeshua would marry her again seeing as she was cast out into the nations by the Father.

Christians were to abide by the law of the Christ which they understood to be the 'law of love'
By striving to live by the law of love, they are in effect fulfilling the mosaic law because Jesus said that love fulfills the law.
Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.

"40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs">>> Yes like the weights on a Grandfather clock. If these weights are removed the clock will no longer work, which is exactly what christians are doing by removing the law.

As regards the festivals and observances, they are strictly for those living under the mosaic law....christians though are living by a different law - the law of Christ.

Yes, you are right/correct, christians have efectively replaced "the Father of the Jews".. with the Pope.

so to turn to the mosaic law, we would have to forego living under Christ as our shephard and turn back to Moses....and if you want to do that you might as well become a Jewish proselyte and forget that Jesus is the Messiah.

Tell me Pegg, why did Paul then turn back to the mosaic law in ACT on/at demand of the elders ?:

Act 21:18 The day following, Paul went in with us to Jacob; and all the elders were present.
Act 21:23 Therefore do what we tell you. We have four men who have taken a vow.
Act 21:24 Take them, and purify yourself with them, and pay their expenses for them, that they may shave their heads..
Act 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purified himself and went with them into the temple, declaring the fulfillment of the days of purification, until the offering was offered for every one of them.
"....until the offering was offered for every one of them..." ??? :>

Num 6:13 “‘This is the law of the Nazirite: when the days of his separation are fulfilled, he shall be brought to the door of the Tent of Meeting,
Num 6:14 and he shall offer his offering to the LORD, one male lamb a year old without blemish for a burnt offering, and one ewe lamb a year old without blemish for a sin offering, and one ram without blemish for peace offerings,
Num 6:21 “‘This is the law of the Nazirite who vows, and of his offering to the LORD for his separation, besides that which he is able to get. According to his vow which he vows, so he must do after the law of his separation.’”

 

[Shermana]

By striving to live by the law of love, they are in effect fulfilling the mosaic law because Jesus said that love fulfills the law.
Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.

That passage doesn't say that by 'love' (in some non-defined non-exact vague and ambiguous meaning of "Agapao in your definition) alone fulfills the obedience to All the Laws. The word "hangs" here means "Summarizes", I've used this example before. It's like saying "All the rules of Traffic hang on not hitting anyone". Does this mean by not hitting anyone that you can drive on the Sidewalk if no one's there? Can you 150 mph if you don't hit anyone? No.

The very meaning of that passage is that each of the commandsments has to do somehow with love of God or neighbor. It's truly amazing how horribly it's twisted, so commonly to get it to mean something else than that.