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Why do Gentiles assume they should follow the ten commandments?

Levite

Higher and Higher
roberto said:
Similarly , we [of the ten tribes]that are still in "Egypt"/diaspora , when conversing with you on the Internet , are not recognised by you guys calling yourself Yehudah.

Until the messiah comes and brings full and true knowledge of everyone's bloodlines, we hold that only those born to Jewish mothers or properly converted according to Jewish Law are held to be of descent (either by blood or adoption) from the twelve tribes. Anyone not so is presumed to be non-Jewish, without any claim to such descent. Therefore, there is de facto no such thing as "we of the ten tribes." There is only Jewish and non-Jewish. And any claims to the contrary are certainly not helped by clinging to the Jesus heresy and the scriptures of apostates.

...knowing that the Beit HaMikdash is about to be built.

There will be no rebuilding of the Temple until the messiah comes. And that will not happen until we have achieved tikkun olam ("the healing/amending/repair of the world") which appears deeply unlikely to occur at any time in the foreseeable future. So unless "about to be built" means some time in the next several millennia, it seems over-optimistic to say....

Would you be so kind as to copy paste reference of the Talmud ?

If I have the citations to hand, sure.
 

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
There will be no rebuilding of the Temple until the messiah comes. And that will not happen until we have achieved tikkun olam ("the healing/amending/repair of the world") which appears deeply unlikely to occur at any time in the foreseeable future. So unless "about to be built" means some time in the next several millennia, it seems over-optimistic to say....

.

hehehe....I couldn't agree more
 

Shermana

Heretic
And any claims to the contrary are certainly not helped by clinging to the Jesus heresy and the scriptures of apostates.
I still have yet to understand why its a heresy when examined in its original Nazarene lens apart from the post-Paul gentile Schism lens. As for "Apostates", apostate to Rabbinicists? I also still don't quite understand why pork-eating reform or Atheist Jews aren't considered apostate. But maybe that's for another thread.

There will be no rebuilding of the Temple until the messiah comes.
And apparently the grisly events of Zechariah 14 have to pass first.
There is only Jewish and non-Jewish.
So if a person is born from a Jewish mother (and/or Father), and they don't believe in G-d and eat pork, they're still "Jewish", but if a person takes on a reactionary Retro-Nazarene position, they lose their Jew card? Says who? You? Rabbinicists? Atheist = Jew, Nazarene = non-Jew? If that's the case I'll take the term "Israelite" instead.

I think the problem here is that Rabbinicists think they own the word "Jewish" just like how Paulinists think they own the word "Christianity", at what point in history did the word "Judaism" equate to "Rabbinicism"? Most Reform have absolutely no regard for the Rabbinicists or the Talmud, but hey no problem. I don't think the Qarites would agree either, but they're too small to matter? So it's appeal to majority? An entire definition based on a big logical fallacy?

Are the CHassidim apostate too? Wasn't the Baal Shem Tov totally excommunicated? So why aren't they apostate then?
 
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-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
"...And to what are the wicked compared in this world? To a tree standing wholly in a place of uncleanness..."

No wonder the Jews don't want to converse with goy.

You must have a big beef with the Old Testament as well considering it's literally packed with much of the same speech from God

Hosea 5

4 “Their deeds do not permit them
to return to their God.
A spirit of prostitution is in their heart;
they do not acknowledge the Lord.
5 Israel’s arrogance testifies against them;
the Israelites, even Ephraim, stumble in their sin;
Judah also stumbles with them.
6 When they go with their flocks and herds
to seek the Lord,
they will not find him;
he has withdrawn himself from them.
7 They are unfaithful to the Lord;
they give birth to illegitimate children.
When they celebrate their New Moon feasts,
he will devour[a] their fields.

Deuteronomy 9:

13 And the Lord said to me, “I have seen this people , and they are a stiff-necked people indeed! 14 Let me alone, so that I may destroy them and blot out their name from under heaven. And I will make you into a nation stronger and more numerous than they
 
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roberto

Active Member
I still have yet to understand why its a heresy when examined in its original Nazarene lens apart from the post-Paul gentile Schism lens. As for "Apostates", apostate to Rabbinicists? I also still don't quite understand why pork-eating reform or Atheist Jews aren't considered apostate. But maybe that's for another thread.
Because Judaism says so.

So if a person is born from a Jewish mother (and/or Father), and they don't believe in G-d and eat pork, they're still "Jewish", but if a person takes on a reactionary Retro-Nazarene position, they lose their Jew card? Says who? You? Rabbinicists? Atheist = Jew, Nazarene = non-Jew? If that's the case I'll take the term "Israelite" instead.
Because Judaism says so.

I think the problem here is that Rabbinicists think they own the word ...
According to them, they may change any law and YHVH has to listen. They subtract from written Torah to prove their point.


So it's appeal to majority? An entire definition based on a big logical fallacy
According to them, they may change any law and YHVH has to listen. They subtract from Torah to prove their point.[Majority rules]

Are the CHassidim apostate too? Wasn't the Baal Shem Tov totally excommunicated? So why aren't they apostate then?
They've got the same mentality as the christians......>They only like to bash christians.
 
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roberto

Active Member
You must have a big beef with the Old Testament as well considering it's literally packed with much of the same speech from God

Hosea 5

4 “Their deeds do not permit them
to return to their God.
A spirit of prostitution is in their heart;
they do not acknowledge the Lord.
5 Israel’s arrogance testifies against them;
the Israelites, even Ephraim, stumble in their sin;
Judah also stumbles with them.
6 When they go with their flocks and herds
to seek the Lord,
they will not find him;
he has withdrawn himself from them.
7 They are unfaithful to the Lord;
they give birth to illegitimate children.
When they celebrate their New Moon feasts,
he will devour[a] their fields.

Nice to see a Christian in training use "the old testament" :clap

Can you now explain :

Hos 1:9 He said, "Call his name Lo-Ammi ; for you are not my people, and I will not be yours.
Hos 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel will be as the sand of the sea, which can’t be measured nor numbered; and it will come to pass that, in the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’
Hos 1:11 The children of Judah and the children of Israel will be gathered together, and they will appoint themselves one head, and will go up from the land; for great will be the day of Jezreel.

Does it mention anything about Christians ?
.
 
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-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
Nice to see a Christian in training use "the old testament" :clap

Can you now explain :

Hos 1:9 He said, "Call his name Lo-Ammi[4]; for you are not my people, and I will not be yours.
Hos 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel will be as the sand of the sea, which can’t be measured nor numbered; and it will come to pass that, in the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’
Hos 1:11 The children of Judah and the children of Israel will be gathered together, and they will appoint themselves one head, and will go up from the land; for great will be the day of Jezreel.

Does it meantion anything of Christians ?
.

For Christians, I'm pretty sure this is one of the prophecies that the gentiles will become part of Israel.
 

roberto

Active Member
For Christians, I'm pretty sure this is one of the prophecies that the gentiles will become part of Israel.

You are quite right that the WHOLE of Hosea is a prophecy about the Northern tribes that were scattered in more or less the year 720Bce.

But in the end times YHVH will gather the scattered again from the four corners of the earth and mend them together as a Kingdom with one King[Yeshua] in Israel.

Can you explain to me why it is said of the Northern Kingdom that :
Hos 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel will be as the sand of the sea, which can’t be measured nor numbered...


Where are these unmeasurable people ?

Please also explain:
Hos 1:7
But I will have mercy on the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God

 
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-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
You are quite right that the WHOLE of Hosea is a prophecy about the Northern tribes that were scattered in more or less the year 720Bce.

But in the end times YHVH will gather the scattered again from the four corners of the earth and mend them together as a Kingdom with one King[Yeshua] in Israel.

Can you explain to me why it is said of the Northern Kingdom that :
Hos 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel will be as the sand of the sea, which can’t be measured nor numbered...

Where are these unmeasurable people ?
.

I think it goes back to the idea that God's plan to Abraham use was a global agenda instead of a tribal one. We see even in the OT that God is setting the stage to reach out to us gentiles. Given that there's a lot more of us then there is of you, I'm thinking a big part of the "sand" is made up of repentant gentiles
 

roberto

Active Member
I think it goes back to the idea that God's plan to Abraham use was a global agenda instead of a tribal one. We see even in the OT that God is setting the stage to reach out to us gentiles. Given that there's a lot more of us then there is of you, I'm thinking a big part of the "sand" is made up of repentant gentiles

The Northern Kingdom was scattered for a particular reason and that reason is that they went whoring after other gods.Hos 4:12 My people consult with their wooden idol, and answer to a stick of wood. Indeed the spirit of prostitution has led them astray, and they have been unfaithful to their God.

Hosea specifically says that YHVH will not be their God annymore where He will scatter them to[under the Nations where they are still whoring with other gods in christianity]Hos 4:17 Ephraim is joined to idols. Leave him alone! Hos 7:8 Ephraim, he mixes himself among the nations.

It is only in the end of days [after two days] that the remnant of the Northern Kingdom will cry out to YHVH
Hos 3:4 For the children of Israel shall live many days without king, and without prince, and without sacrifice, and without sacred stone, and without ephod or idols.
Hos 3:5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king, and shall come with trembling to the LORD and to his blessings in the last days.

Then after [two days] the remnant who is still mixed with christianity will :

Hos 2:16 It will be in that day," says the LORD,
"that you will call me ‘my husband,’
and no longer call me ‘my master.’

No longer can the remnant thus use words like "God/Lord" but will call YHVH by His correct name and same applies to their Messiah.

Hos 2:16 (15) En in daardie dag, sê Yahweh, sal jy My noem: My man; en jy sal my nie meer noem: My Baál nie.
Hos 2:17 (16) Dan verwyder Ek die name van die Baáls uit haar mond, sodat hulle by hul naam nie meer genoem sal word nie.
Hos 2:18 (17) Verder sluit Ek in daardie dag vir hulle 'n verbond met die wilde diere van die veld en met die voëls van die hemel en die kruipende diere van die aarde; ja, boog en swaard en oorlog sal Ek verbreek uit die land, en Ek sal hulle in veiligheid laat rus.
Hos 2:19 (18) En Ek sal My met jou verloof tot in ewigheid en My met jou verloof in geregtigheid en in reg en in goedertierenheid en in ontferming.
Hos 2:20 (19) En Ek sal My met jou verloof in trou; dan sal jy Yahweh ken.
Hos 2:21 (20) En in daardie dag sal Ek verhoor, sê Yahweh, Ek sal die hemel verhoor en dit sal die aarde verhoor.
Hos 2:22 (21) En die aarde sal die koring verhoor en die mos en die olie, en dit sal Yiezreél verhoor.
Hos 2:23 (22) En Ek sal haar vir My saai in die land en My oor Lo-Rugama ontferm, en aan Lo-Ammi sê: Jy is my volk; en hy sal sê: My Elohiem!


Talmud - Mas. Sanhedrin 97b
...."But the Holy One, blessed be He, will set up a king over them, whose decrees shall be as cruel as Haman's, whereby Israel shall engage in repentance, and he will thus bring them back to the right path..".28
(28) [in the Jerushalmi, the last sentence, ‘But the Holy . . . right path’ is given as R. Eliezer's reply to R. Joshua.]
 
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-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal

Hos 1:7 But I will have mercy on the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God

This passage makes me think about Romans chapter 11



Romans 11:


1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew....



7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written:
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.”[c]

9 And David says:
“May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever.”[d]

11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!.....





25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”[g]



Like I said, Christians believe a time will come when Israel is made up of Jews and Gentiles, that God will have mercy on both
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
What planet are you from ?
Go check out the video on this website to see how close the coming of the Madi is

This article is nothing but an account of fanatical jihadist elements in Iranian government. That doesn't even have anything to do with sanity, let alone the coming of the messiah.

I still have yet to understand why its a heresy when examined in its original Nazarene lens apart from the post-Paul gentile Schism lens. As for "Apostates", apostate to Rabbinicists? I also still don't quite understand why pork-eating reform or Atheist Jews aren't considered apostate. But maybe that's for another thread.

There are no extant original documents recording what Jesus actually taught to his students. My guess, reading between the lines of the Christian scriptures, is that if they did exist, they might indeed describe a kind of sectarian Judaism that would be comparatively mild in its heresy (presuming that he did not, in fact, reject the yoke of Oral Torah altogether, but only disagreed with the Rabbis as to its interpretation, and presumed too great an interpretive authority derived from his pretensions to be the moshiach). But no such documents exist, and even if they did, it would likely be too late to try and reclaim anything from them. Jesus has been a figure of non-Jewish religion for 1800+ years. And the only documents we have describing his teachings describe not merely a rogue Rabbi who falsely claimed to be the moshaich, but a man who at worst tried to deify himself or at best did not reject it when others called him a god, and (as Paul and his followers depict him) clearly fits the quintessential definition of a false prophet. And that's not even getting into the Pauline rejection of Torah and the "supercession" of the covenant of Sinai with a supposed "new covenant."

Reform Jews are not apostates. Most are in error, and at worst, some may be heretics. But they do not reject the Torah. They do not reject the covenant of Sinai. They do not deny or infringe upon the unity of God. They do not worship human beings. They do not even, technically, claim to reject Rabbinic Judaism or the Oral Torah, and the right wing of their movement are often surprisingly observant of mitzvot-- though in the end, I admit that I personally see no rational defense for "non-halachic" Rabbinic Judaism.

Where heresy is beginning is in the assimilation and intermarriage problems. If they cannot stem that and turn away from their current disastrous practices in this area, they really will become lost to us in a few more generations.

But Reform heresy, where such heresy even exists, is a heresy of apathy, a passive heresy. Their problem is what they do not do, not what they do. Christian syncretism and "messianic Judaism" and other sorts of apostatic practices are active and aggressive heresy. Not only are they insufficiently observant of mitzvot, but the more serious compounding of the issue is that in place of observance (rather than simple apathetic secularism) are theologies and practices forbidden to us.

And apparently the grisly events of Zechariah 14 have to pass first.

Some say those events are not inevitable, but only depend on how we act as a people. Others say they may happen metaphorically. Many don't believe they must literally happen as Zechariah describes.

So if a person is born from a Jewish mother (and/or Father), and they don't believe in G-d and eat pork, they're still "Jewish", but if a person takes on a reactionary Retro-Nazarene position, they lose their Jew card? Says who? You? Rabbinicists? Atheist = Jew, Nazarene = non-Jew? If that's the case I'll take the term "Israelite" instead.

If a person is born to a Jewish mother or was properly converted according to halachah, it doesn't matter what they do or don't do, or profess to believe: they are Jewish, permanently and irreversibly. They may be sinners and/or heretics, or even apostates, but they are always Jewish.

What I am talking about is non-Jews who dress up Christianity in borrowed Jewish clothing, and think that just because they feel some sort of kinship with ancient Judaism, that makes them authentic Jews and inheritors of the covenant.

So if a person is born to a Jewish mother or properly converted and then goes and calls themselves a Nazarene, they are Jewish, certainly. They're simply heretics or apostates. But they are certainly Jewish.

But if a person is not born to a Jewish mother, or never had a halachic conversion, then they are not Jewish. And no amount of using Hebrew terminology for Christian scriptures or holy figures, and no amount of baseless claims of descent from the Lost Tribes is going to change their non-Jewishness, or make what they profess anything but non-Jewish religion, forbidden practices to Jews.

...at what point in history did the word "Judaism" equate to "Rabbinicism"?

Since the Tzedokim and Isim and other sectarian groups of the Second Temple Period opposed the Perushim with customs and practices not grounded in Oral Torah. Once the Temple fell, and these groups became extinct, it became clear that normative Judaism is the Judaism of the Perushim, which is the Judaism of the Rabbis of the Talmud. Anything else is heresy.

Most Reform have absolutely no regard for the Rabbinicists or the Talmud, but hey no problem. I don't think the Qarites would agree either, but they're too small to matter? So it's appeal to majority? An entire definition based on a big logical fallacy?

Like I said, Reform Judaism is in error. But they are, for the most part, not trying to cut themselves off from Rabbinic Judaism, or from the halachic movements. I am inclined to withhold labeling them as heretics because I think their movement will eventually fracture, and part will rejoin the halachic mainstream (albeit at the far left), and part will eventually truly become heretical-- if only by virtue of apathy and assimilation-- and will eventually become lost to us.

Most Reform Jews I know are doing the best they can, and are not actually eaters of pork or atheists (I do think atheism walks the line of heresy, although I have met Jews who observed the mitzvot but were deeply agnostic, and I am not inclined to label them as heretics, since they are clearly struggling to remain part of Jewish society and observance). And I know many who study Talmud, and consider the words of the Rabbis carefully. I don't agree with how they use those words, but they do care about them, and they do acknowledge the power of the Rabbis in the core and root of the tradition.

Are the Hasidim apostate too? Wasn't the Baal Shem Tov totally excommunicated? So why aren't they apostate then?

There is nothing in Hasidism that is heretical (with the sole exception of those modern-day Lubavitchers who claim that the Rebbe will return from the dead to be the moshiach. Those guys are heretics, no question). The original Hasidic masters were excommunicated by the Vilna Gaon and his followers (the differences were well within the bounds of traditional tolerance of varying opinions, and the considerable acrimony mostly resulted from social politics of Eastern European Judaism), but that schism was repaired in the face of the Enlightenment, and easily, too, since nothing in Hasidism is actually particularly heretical.
 

roberto

Active Member
This article is nothing but an account of fanatical jihadist elements in Iranian government. That doesn't even have anything to do with sanity, let alone the coming of the messiah
Hey, have you ever watched a Soccer or Rugby match with only one team ?

Their Messiah [Magdi] is coming just like yours my dear friend. What makes you think that a battle can be fought with only Jewish soldiers ?

If you think you can Bs. Goy about the end times, please note that we watch both sides of the team and bye the way you see yourself as a "watchman of watchmen" then wake up because the end is coming and you will be caught "with your pants down" as in the days of Noah.

......they really will become lost to us in a few more generations.
You really are lost in time. Have you ever heard of "the last Generation" ?

May it be that this will help you :

The Complete Babylonian Talmud
in one volume
Talmud - Mas. Sanhedrin 97b
but through our many iniquities all these years have been lost.1
Elijah said to Rab Judah, the brother of R. Salia the pious: ‘The world shall exist not less than
eighty five jubilees,2 and in the last jubilee the son of David will come.’3 He asked him, ‘At the
beginning or at the end?’4 — He replied, ‘I do not know.’ ‘Shall [this period] be completed or not?’5
- ‘I do not know,’ he answered. R. Ashi said: He spoke thus to him, ‘Before that, do not expect him;
afterwards thou mayest await him.’6
(2) Of fifty years.
(4) Of the last fifty years.
.
 
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Levite

Higher and Higher
Hey, have you ever watched a Soccer or Rugby match with only one team ? Their Messiah [Magdi] is coming just like yours my dear friend. What makes you think that a battle can be fought with only Jewish soldiers ?

Please. Even if there are other messiahs to other cultures, I hardly think any kind of messianic age is going to reflect the rantings of radical fundamentalist nutballs-- of any religion. I would bet good money that not even all Shiite Muslims believe the coming of their messiah will look like that, or involve such fanatical bloodshed. I certainly see no reason I have to believe that such things will occur.

It's nonsense. Just inflammatory rhetoric.

You really are lost in time. Have you ever heard of "the last Generation" ?
May it be that this will help you :
Mas. Sanhedrin 97b

That sugiya you've quoted is aggadeta. In other words, it is midrash. An exegetical parable, or exegetical philosophical thought-exercise. We do not take it literally, nor did the Rabbis: after all, if the span of the world really were eighty-five jubilees, the world would've ended thousands of years ago. It would really behoove you to learn something about Rabbinic literature and thought if you're going to go around quoting it.

Normative Judaism has seldom been particularly apocalyptic: rather it has been, overall, generally more stable, focused on the present, and hopeful about the future. I see no reason to begin thinking otherwise now.

In any case, I find apocalyptic and millenialistic theology to be both distasteful and tiresome.
 

roberto

Active Member
Please. Even if there are other messiahs to other cultures, I hardly think any kind of messianic age is going to reflect the rantings of radical fundamentalist nutballs-- of any religion. I would bet good money that not even all Shiite Muslims believe the coming of their messiah will look like that, or involve such fanatical bloodshed. I certainly see no reason I have to believe that such things will occur.

It's nonsense. Just inflammatory rhetoric.

That sugiya you've quoted is aggadeta. In other words, it is midrash. An exegetical parable, or exegetical philosophical thought-exercise. We do not take it literally, nor did the Rabbis: after all, if the span of the world really were eighty-five jubilees, the world would've ended thousands of years ago. It would really behoove you to learn something about Rabbinic literature and thought if you're going to go around quoting it.

Normative Judaism has seldom been particularly apocalyptic: rather it has been, overall, generally more stable, focused on the present, and hopeful about the future. I see no reason to begin thinking otherwise now.

In any case, I find apocalyptic and millenialistic theology to be both distasteful and tiresome.

Gee, but you guys are similar to Christians who also have their heads stuck in their "sand"
So all this talking of Iran and its coming Bomb in the Jewish news is all a made up story to frighten goy ? I believe they say Iran is as close to the bomb as a year.[Apparently enough material for six]
Gas-mask issuing.
Bunker-building.
All distasteful and tiresome eh? .....And so was Noah to the heritics.

"...But the US and its ally Israel—the sole, if undeclared, nuclear weapons state in the Middle East—have threatened military strikes on Iranian nuclear facilities if diplomacy fails..."
http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topi...=509933&version=1&template_id=37&parent_id=17

Why then according to you would the state of Israel want to attack Iran if diplomacy fails ?

Eze 33:6 But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the shofar, so that the people are not warned; and then the sword comes and takes any one of them, that one is indeed taken away in his guilt, but I will hold the watchman responsible for his death.'
:sad:
Shabbat Shalom to you here from South Africa.
.
 
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jtartar

Well-Known Member
Doesn't the Torah say that it was given to the Jewish people? I'm not saying that they shouldnt follow them, but to say Gentiles were given the ten commandments as well - is absolutely false. Seemingly, this is something strongly disagreed on. Simple question, where in the Torah does it say that gentiles should keep shabbat? Does it say somewhere in the new testament that they should? Because if it brings it down upon them as obligatory. From a stringent point of view I'm asking an explanation - leniancy has a very moot standing in order to form proper exegetical analysis in the case of determining law. I.e. To say "this verse doesn't apply because it's outdated or was based off other religions at the time."*

Assuming one is to say that the Torah was given to Moses from G-d himself in it's full, then we are assuming that it holds divine authenticity. Though certain historical questions may arise in one reader to the next's mind, they're irrelevant to the matter which is being adressed. Based on an exegetical, lawful exposition of the Torah through context of scripture and/or any other alleged divinely inspired texts, history from a non-biblical standpoint is somewhat irrelevant to canonizing an authorative view point... Unless you're attempting to reform perspective on authenticity. You can still develop laws from and within the context of the Torah without knowing too much history. In other words from long held canonical texts and opinions, where do we arrive at the logic that a non Jew should keep shabbat based on textual analysis?*Simple as that. Forgive me if I'm being too wordy to ask a simple question, I just want to know how do Christians think they should participate in obliging themselves with the ten commandments. That's all.

Whoitbe,
There are several reasons for this misunderstanding. One reason is the translation of the word DIATHEKE, which actually means Covenant, but is translated Testament, as in Old Testament and New Testament. The more correct names of the Hebrew Scriptures is Old Covenant, meaning The Mosaic Law Covenant, and the New Covenant, which is the New Covenant that Jesus instituted on the night before his death. This New Covenant is the Christian Greek Scriptures, Luke 22:19,20. As is written by Jeremiah, the Mosaic Law Covenant was only for a specified time, an interim law covenant, Jere 31:31-34.
Another problem is; the religious leaders of today want their laity to believe they are under the Mosaic Law Covenant, because in that Covenant is the Law on Tithes. They want everyone to believe they are under this law, which is completely false. Consider what Paul wrote about giving at 2Cor 9:6,7, which says to let each one give just as he has resolved in his heart, not grudgingly, or under complusion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
Another reason is that some of the laws in the New Testament are the same as the laws in the Old Testament. What needs to be remembered is; just because some of the laws are reiterated, does not mean it is the same covenant. Think of any marriage. A marriage is a covenant between two people, and just because some of the same things are said in many marriages does not mean that all are in all marriages. Pantagamy is against God's laws, especially for Christians.
Another thing to remember: NO CHRISTIAN was ever under the Mosaic Law Covenant, because it became obsolete at the time of Jesus death, which is the time that the New Covenant started, Col 2:13,14, Heb 8:6-13.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Gee, but you guys are similar to Christians who also have their heads stuck in their "sand"
So all this talking of Iran and its coming Bomb in the Jewish news is all a made up story to frighten goy ? ...
Why then according to you would the state of Israel want to attack Iran if diplomacy fails ?
Eze 33:6 ...

I actually tend not to believe that Iran is about to create nuclear bombs, and even less that, if it did create any, it would immediately use them.

Whether or not Israel would strike Iranian nuclear developments sites failing diplomacy, I don't know.

But even if both of these things happened, it would simply be politics and warfare. Not everything relates to prophecies. Most things don't. And most of the things that do don't relate to apocalyptic and millenialist prophecies. Trying to make everything fit into a fantasy of living in end times is just the hyperventilation of fundamentalists trying to make meaning out of elements of life that frighten them or which seem uncontrollable.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I actually tend not to believe that Iran is about to create nuclear bombs, and even less that, if it did create any, it would immediately use them.

Whether or not Israel would strike Iranian nuclear developments sites failing diplomacy, I don't know.

But even if both of these things happened, it would simply be politics and warfare. Not everything relates to prophecies. Most things don't. And most of the things that do don't relate to apocalyptic and millenialist prophecies. Trying to make everything fit into a fantasy of living in end times is just the hyperventilation of fundamentalists trying to make meaning out of elements of life that frighten them or which seem uncontrollable.
One wonders if it's generally understood that prophecy =/= future-prediction?
 

Harmonious

Well-Known Member
This article is nothing but an account of fanatical jihadist elements in Iranian government. That doesn't even have anything to do with sanity, let alone the coming of the messiah.



There are no extant original documents recording what Jesus actually taught to his students. My guess, reading between the lines of the Christian scriptures, is that if they did exist, they might indeed describe a kind of sectarian Judaism that would be comparatively mild in its heresy (presuming that he did not, in fact, reject the yoke of Oral Torah altogether, but only disagreed with the Rabbis as to its interpretation, and presumed too great an interpretive authority derived from his pretensions to be the moshiach). But no such documents exist, and even if they did, it would likely be too late to try and reclaim anything from them. Jesus has been a figure of non-Jewish religion for 1800+ years. And the only documents we have describing his teachings describe not merely a rogue Rabbi who falsely claimed to be the moshaich, but a man who at worst tried to deify himself or at best did not reject it when others called him a god, and (as Paul and his followers depict him) clearly fits the quintessential definition of a false prophet. And that's not even getting into the Pauline rejection of Torah and the "supercession" of the covenant of Sinai with a supposed "new covenant."

Reform Jews are not apostates. Most are in error, and at worst, some may be heretics. But they do not reject the Torah. They do not reject the covenant of Sinai. They do not deny or infringe upon the unity of God. They do not worship human beings. They do not even, technically, claim to reject Rabbinic Judaism or the Oral Torah, and the right wing of their movement are often surprisingly observant of mitzvot-- though in the end, I admit that I personally see no rational defense for "non-halachic" Rabbinic Judaism.

Where heresy is beginning is in the assimilation and intermarriage problems. If they cannot stem that and turn away from their current disastrous practices in this area, they really will become lost to us in a few more generations.

But Reform heresy, where such heresy even exists, is a heresy of apathy, a passive heresy. Their problem is what they do not do, not what they do. Christian syncretism and "messianic Judaism" and other sorts of apostatic practices are active and aggressive heresy. Not only are they insufficiently observant of mitzvot, but the more serious compounding of the issue is that in place of observance (rather than simple apathetic secularism) are theologies and practices forbidden to us.



Some say those events are not inevitable, but only depend on how we act as a people. Others say they may happen metaphorically. Many don't believe they must literally happen as Zechariah describes.



If a person is born to a Jewish mother or was properly converted according to halachah, it doesn't matter what they do or don't do, or profess to believe: they are Jewish, permanently and irreversibly. They may be sinners and/or heretics, or even apostates, but they are always Jewish.

What I am talking about is non-Jews who dress up Christianity in borrowed Jewish clothing, and think that just because they feel some sort of kinship with ancient Judaism, that makes them authentic Jews and inheritors of the covenant.

So if a person is born to a Jewish mother or properly converted and then goes and calls themselves a Nazarene, they are Jewish, certainly. They're simply heretics or apostates. But they are certainly Jewish.

But if a person is not born to a Jewish mother, or never had a halachic conversion, then they are not Jewish. And no amount of using Hebrew terminology for Christian scriptures or holy figures, and no amount of baseless claims of descent from the Lost Tribes is going to change their non-Jewishness, or make what they profess anything but non-Jewish religion, forbidden practices to Jews.



Since the Tzedokim and Isim and other sectarian groups of the Second Temple Period opposed the Perushim with customs and practices not grounded in Oral Torah. Once the Temple fell, and these groups became extinct, it became clear that normative Judaism is the Judaism of the Perushim, which is the Judaism of the Rabbis of the Talmud. Anything else is heresy.



Like I said, Reform Judaism is in error. But they are, for the most part, not trying to cut themselves off from Rabbinic Judaism, or from the halachic movements. I am inclined to withhold labeling them as heretics because I think their movement will eventually fracture, and part will rejoin the halachic mainstream (albeit at the far left), and part will eventually truly become heretical-- if only by virtue of apathy and assimilation-- and will eventually become lost to us.

Most Reform Jews I know are doing the best they can, and are not actually eaters of pork or atheists (I do think atheism walks the line of heresy, although I have met Jews who observed the mitzvot but were deeply agnostic, and I am not inclined to label them as heretics, since they are clearly struggling to remain part of Jewish society and observance). And I know many who study Talmud, and consider the words of the Rabbis carefully. I don't agree with how they use those words, but they do care about them, and they do acknowledge the power of the Rabbis in the core and root of the tradition.



There is nothing in Hasidism that is heretical (with the sole exception of those modern-day Lubavitchers who claim that the Rebbe will return from the dead to be the moshiach. Those guys are heretics, no question). The original Hasidic masters were excommunicated by the Vilna Gaon and his followers (the differences were well within the bounds of traditional tolerance of varying opinions, and the considerable acrimony mostly resulted from social politics of Eastern European Judaism), but that schism was repaired in the face of the Enlightenment, and easily, too, since nothing in Hasidism is actually particularly heretical.
I would give a Frubal for this post, if I could.
 
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