Why do God/s "hide" from disbelievers?

[Spirit of Light]

Quod erat demonstrandum. Latin for "what was to be shown," or freely translated as "therefore proved."

It was meant tonque-in-cheek (in jest, sarcastically), because you proved nothing at all except what @TagliatelliMonster and I have been saying -- that you have your beliefs.

Exactly i have my belief and understanding of the teaching, others has their belief in a God.
It does not bother me that others believe differently then i do.
I dont claim to hold the only truth or the truth in it fullstest. I have a spiritual belief that is personal. So no i can not say others are more right or wrong than my own belief

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It has nothing to do with unwillingness, it has to do with understanding there are more than one way to God. And i have nothing against any religion.
Just because i chose to believe one way does not mean other ways is wrong

Are you familiar with the gumball machine analogy?
It's use is for another purpose, but it can be changed a bit to be relevant here.

It goes like this...
There's an unknown amount of gumballs in a machine.
One does not have access to the contents of the machine. ie, one cannot open it up to count how many gumballs are in the machine.

The number of gumballs in it, is either an even or odd number.

You, as a muslim, believe it is an odd number. Your belief that it is odd represents your muslim beliefs in this analogy.
Someone else, as a follower of a mutually exclusive religion, believes it is an even number instead, which represents their religious beliefs in this analogy.


You can't both be right.
When 2 people believe mutually exclusive things, then by definition at least one of them is incorrect.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It does not bother me that others believe differently then i do.

The point is not about if it bothers you.

The point is about that if you believe X is correct, then by definition you must consider beliefs that are counter to X, to be incorrect. You can't have it both ways.


I wonder why this seems so hard for you to comprehend or acknowledge.

Suppose X is a geometric shape.
I believe it is a square.
You believe it is a circle.

We can't both be correct.
If you are convinced that you are correct about it being a circle, then by definition you must think I am incorrect in believing it is a square instead.

The shape can't be both a circle and a square.

I dont claim to hold the only truth or the truth in it fullstest. I have a spiritual belief that is personal. So no i can not say others are more right or wrong than my own belief

Is this your way of saying that you don't actually believe Islam is correct, or necessarily correct, but that you only follow it because you just "like it" or something?

Sounds like it....

 

[Spirit of Light]

Are you familiar with the gumball machine analogy?
It's use is for another purpose, but it can be changed a bit to be relevant here.

It goes like this...
There's an unknown amount of gumballs in a machine.
One does not have access to the contents of the machine. ie, one cannot open it up to count how many gumballs are in the machine.

The number of gumballs in it, is either an even or odd number.

You, as a muslim, believe it is an odd number. Your belief that it is odd represents your muslim beliefs in this analogy.
Someone else, as a follower of a mutually exclusive religion, believes it is an even number instead, which represents their religious beliefs in this analogy.


You can't both be right.
When 2 people believe mutually exclusive things, then by definition at least one of them is incorrect.

Unfortunately you can not use human thought and logic to understand God the teachings give the recipe how to unlock wisdom of God. The different religions teachings just explain exactly the same thing in different ways. So there are one truth of God on the top. But the different paths(teachings) is the map how to find god ( from within our own being)

 

[Spirit of Light]

The point is not about if it bothers you.

The point is about that if you believe X is correct, then by definition you must consider beliefs that are counter to X, to be incorrect. You can't have it both ways.


I wonder why this seems so hard for you to comprehend or acknowledge.

Suppose X is a geometric shape.
I believe it is a square.
You believe it is a circle.

We can't both be correct.
If you are convinced that you are correct about it being a circle, then by definition you must think I am incorrect in believing it is a square instead.

The shape can't be both a circle and a square.



Is this your way of saying that you don't actually believe Islam is correct, or necessarily correct, but that you only follow it because you just "like it" or something?

Sounds like it....

You do not understand what i say
I only focus on better my self by practicing the teaching of islam. To my practice islam is the right one. I found what i been seeking for more than 20 years in other religions. If other people find what they been seeking in any other religious teaching they found the truth.

I do not say other religions are wrong. Because they are all from God.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Unfortunately you can not use human thought and logic to understand God

Uhu....

So to sum up...
Gods hide from people.
Gods can be supported by mutually exclusive beliefs.
Logic can't take you to gods.


All this sounds very consistent with gods not existing.

The different religions teachings just explain exactly the same thing in different ways.

They really really don't.
The point. You keep missing it.

Do you know what the words "mutually exclusive" mean?

The Viking religion speaks of how the only path to Whalhalla is to die on the battle field by the sword and it doesn't even matter who you are fighting, as long as you die fighting it's good.
Tell me how that is compatible with christianity. Tell me how that addresses "the same thing in a different way".


I'm sorry to say, but you are very naïve.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Uhu....

So to sum up...
Gods hide from people.
Gods can be supported by mutually exclusive beliefs.
Logic can't take you to gods.


All this sounds very consistent with gods not existing.




They really really don't.
The point. You keep missing it.

Do you know what the words "mutually exclusive" mean?

The Viking religion speaks of how the only path to Whalhalla is to die on the battle field by the sword and it doesn't even matter who you are fighting, as long as you die fighting it's good.
Tell me how that is compatible with christianity. Tell me how that addresses "the same thing in a different way".


I'm sorry to say, but you are very naïve.

They all teach a way to access Gods kingdom as Christians like to call it.
I dont speak for any other person or belief, everything i say in RF comes from my understanding of the teaching. And no i do not know everything i have to understand yet.

People from other religions or belief have to give their answer how they understand it.

I dont get offended by being called naive

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You do not understand what i say
I only focus on better my self by practicing the teaching of islam. To my practice islam is the right one. I found what i been seeking for more than 20 years in other religions. If other people find what they been seeking in any other religious teaching they found the truth.

I do not say other religions are wrong. Because they are all from God.

Indeed, I do not understand what you say. To me it's very naïve and self-contradictory.
Unless you don't really believe in islam (or any other religion) and instead just take it as some kind of poetic symbolic thing you can pick and choose ideas from that sound appealing to you because you "like" them.

Kind of like how westerners are into yoga, but treat it as a form of exercise while ignoring all the religious baggage it comes with.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Indeed, I do not understand what you say. To me it's very naïve and self-contradictory.
Unless you don't really believe in islam (or any other religion) and instead just take it as some kind of poetic symbolic thing you can pick and choose ideas from that sound appealing to you because you "like" them.

Kind of like how westerners are into yoga, but treat it as a form of exercise while ignoring all the religious baggage it comes with.

I take my practice very seriously. And follow my teacher's guidance

 

[Wrangler]

Unfortunately you can not use human thought and logic to understand God

Of course you can! God is not an alien but our Father. Understanding Him comes natural, even if we sometimes don't WANT to understand his direction, discipline and decisions.

 

[Bird123]

Then God is found as a distinct entity in nature.

Y'know, I have the strong impression the reason you haven't responded to the substance of my questions is that you have no more idea than I do what a real god looks like or where such a being can be found in reality.

And that only leaves conceptual / imaginary gods, which I can muster in any desired quantity for myself.

It'd be a pity if I'm right, so feel free to correct me.

Let's start with that objective test that will determine whether my keyboard is God or not.

A person's actions show who a person actually is. I see you!!
I pointed the direction by which everyone is capable of Discovering God. You ignored what I said. Discovering God is not what you really want.

People see what they want to see. You mistake me if you think I am running on Beliefs or emotional substance.

I do not ask anyone to believe in God. There are far too many people accepting and believing today. On the other hand, if one really really wants to Discover God, I have pointed the way.

Discovery will never be as easy as accepting. On the other hand, Discover will always bring better results.

Lucky you. I have pointed you in the right direction. I had no one pointing me. I only had the desire to Discover the Real Truth regardless of what that turned out to be.

As I said before, this is a lifetime journey. Further, God's IQ is off the charts. One must have a wide view along with stretching that thinking. So much in this world is a Test of Intelligence. Everyone will need all they can muster on this journey. We are but mere ants.

I speak about God for only one reason. So much is said about God that simply isn't true. I merely place Truth in the world so that those who are ready can see.

Be who you must! It's a part of the plan!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[blü 2]

A person's actions show who a person actually is. I see you!!

The difference here is that I know what real thing the word "person" denotes.

I pointed the direction by which everyone is capable of Discovering God. You ignored what I said.

On the exact contrary, I paid attention to what you said, found it contained insufficient information, and accordingly have asked you several times to clarify.

People see what they want to see. You mistake me if you think I am running on Beliefs or emotional substance.

You keep dodging the question.

Do you mean any real entity when you say "God"?

If so, God exists in reality, in nature, in the realm of the physical sciences, in the world external to the self which we know about via our senses.

Therefore I need a sufficient description of this real God to know what I'm supposed to be looking for. I refer you to the test I keep asking you for that will determine whether my keyboard is God is not.

And you keep not answering.

You won't even admit you don't know.

 

[Bird123]

The difference here is that I know what real thing the word "person" denotes.
On the exact contrary, I paid attention to what you said, found it contained insufficient information, and accordingly have asked you several times to clarify.
You keep dodging the question.

Do you mean any real entity when you say "God"?

If so, God exists in reality, in nature, in the realm of the physical sciences, in the world external to the self which we know about via our senses.

Therefore I need a sufficient description of this real God to know what I'm supposed to be looking for. I refer you to the test I keep asking you for that will determine whether my keyboard is God is not.

And you keep not answering.

You won't even admit you don't know.

Clearly, you are not thinking straight. Let's use a little deductive reasoning. If you look at this world and this universe, one would have to be very very smart to be able to create it. Would such a Being be a keyboard? Take your keyboard and smash it to bits. Would an intelligent being allow themselves to be that vulnerable?

Before one can walk, one crawls. I see why you can not see what I am saying to you. Seems, you have a long way to go before you even start walking.

Thinking is required. Clearly you are not even close to being ready. That's OK. There has never been a time limit on learning.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[blü 2]

Would such a Being be a keyboard?

Nothing in the evidence suggests the universe was created by a sentient being. Are you not familiar with what we know from physics and cosmology?

Take your keyboard and smash it to bits. Would an intelligent being allow themselves to be that vulnerable?

I have no idea ─ you still haven't told me how to identify this real god of yours. You don't even know what it looks like.

Before one can walk, one crawls. I see why you can not see what I am saying to you.

Then you can see it's because the only answer you give to my questions is an affected condescending tone.

Plainly you have not the faintest idea what real thing you intend to denote with the word "God". All your answers are about voyages of imagination.

That much being perfectly clear, I guess we can leave it there.

 

[Bird123]

Nothing in the evidence suggests the universe was created by a sentient being. Are you not familiar with what we know from physics and cosmology?
I have no idea ─ you still haven't told me how to identify this real god of yours. You don't even know what it looks like.
you still haven't told me how to identify this real god of yours. You don't even know what it looks like.

Plainly you have not the faintest idea what real thing you intend to denote with the word "God". All your answers are about voyages of imagination.

That much being perfectly clear, I guess we can leave it there.

your quote:Are you not familiar with what we know from physics and cosmology?

My Answer:Why do you restrict your view to this physical universe. Why must you insist your answers must be in physical form? You speak of physics. Quantum physics points out the possibility of many dimensions. How much will you miss ignoring anything that isn't within the terms of what you want it to be? How much more does science have yet to Discover??

your quote:you still haven't told me how to identify this real god of yours. You don't even know what it looks like.

My Answer: You already know God whether you know you know or not. If you get a one to one interaction with God, you would never ask that question.

WE are all Spiritual beings in our true natures. God is a Spiritual Being as well. God is not going to be confined to a physical body as you and I are. Your view is too narrow.

your quote: Then you can see it's because the only answer you give to my questions is an affected condescending tone.

My Answer: I have no tone. I am stating facts. You are the one who chooses how to take my statements. On the other hand, when I repeat things you say like is God a keyboard, even you realize that is a silly question. If you are truly at this stage, it's no wonder you can not understand what I say.

Is this a bad thing or a condescending thing? No. We are all at different levels of understanding and we are all learning. That just is.

What things could God say that would completely go over my head? More things than I could count yet nothing has changed. It is up to each of us to Discover for ourselves. Many try for a short cut, however wisdom and knowledge doesn't work that way.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[blü 2]

Why do you restrict your view to this physical universe.

I don't. But if we want to talk about what is real, then we necessarily talk about things that are objectively real ie exist in the world external to the self, which we know of through our senses. That's what "real" means.

Why must you insist your answers must be in physical form?

Because you said God had objective existence but you respond exactly as if [he] doesn't, but instead only exists in your mind as a concept or thing imagined.

You speak of physics. Quantum physics points out the possibility of many dimensions. How much will you miss ignoring anything that isn't within the terms of what you want it to be? How much more does science have yet to Discover??

A great deal remains to be discovered. But you fail to specify what you might be looking for in such extra dimensions as may be. (The idea that God is a creature in a higher dimension was popular back in the times of spiritualism, late 19th early 20th centuries. And you may have come across Edwin Abbott's well-known book Flatland (1884). The ideas were stimulated by popular accounts of the n-space maths of Riemann, of course.)

You already know God whether you know you know or not. If you get a one to one interaction with God, you would never ask that question.

Once again you confuse the internal with the objectively real. Your claim is that God is real, not solely conceptual / imaginary, isn't it? In that case my questions are well-founded ─ describe this real god so we'll know what we're looking for, and will be able to tell whether any real suspect is God or not.

WE are all Spiritual beings in our true natures.

No, that won't do. Once again there's no objective test that will distinguish the supernatural, the 'spiritual', the 'immaterial' (&c) from the purely conceptual / imaginary.

I am stating facts.

No, facts are accurate statements about specific things or states of affairs in reality. My whole point is that you don't go there.

What things could God say that would completely go over my head?

When you get round to telling me what real thing you intend to denote by the word "God" I'll be in a better position to understand your question.

 

[Bird123]

I don't. But if we want to talk about what is real, then we necessarily talk about things that are objectively real ie exist in the world external to the self, which we know of through our senses. That's what "real" means.
Because you said God had objective existence but you respond exactly as if [he] doesn't, but instead only exists in your mind as a concept or thing imagined.
A great deal remains to be discovered. But you fail to specify what you might be looking for in such extra dimensions as may be. (The idea that God is a creature in a higher dimension was popular back in the times of spiritualism, late 19th early 20th centuries. And you may have come across Edwin Abbott's well-known book Flatland (1884). The ideas were stimulated by popular accounts of the n-space maths of Riemann, of course.)
Once again you confuse the internal with the objectively real. Your claim is that God is real, not solely conceptual / imaginary, isn't it? In that case my questions are well-founded ─ describe this real god so we'll know what we're looking for, and will be able to tell whether any real suspect is God or not.
No, that won't do. Once again there's no objective test that will distinguish the supernatural, the 'spiritual', the 'immaterial' (&c) from the purely conceptual / imaginary.
No, facts are accurate statements about specific things or states of affairs in reality. My whole point is that you don't go there.
When you get round to telling me what real thing you intend to denote by the word "God" I'll be in a better position to understand your question.

You want me to define God within your terms that fits within your knowledge base. Perhaps, you need to Discover who you really are so you can have a frame of reference to what I speak.

Assumptions shield you from the truth. Does reality really depend upon senses? If a tree falls in the forest will it make a sound if no one is in the forest to hear it? The reality is that sound waves will be generated regardless whether anyone is around or not. God places knowledge around us all. It exists regardless of whether anyone Discovers it.

I speak of God. You do not understand. I tell you of God's nature. You do not understand. I tell you the road to Discover answers for yourself. You either do not understand or you want me to supply you with answers to accept or reject. I do not want you to believe!!!!

Let's go back to an action of God. God doesn't just give knowledge. One must work to acquire knowledge so that wisdom goes with it. I point but if you search for answers, it is your choice, not mine. Discovery is going to take work.

If you are still lost, work at trying to Understand who you really are. If you think you are a totally physical being, you have more work to do on Discovering the Real Truth about yourself.

First comes vision, next is the effort to Discover. If you are so sure of your ways within that box, how do you expect to have the vision to see beyond it??

What is the first thing a wise man realizes once a wise man truly becomes wise?? Anybody?? Anybody?? The first thing a wise man realizes once a wise man truly becomes wise is that there is so much more to learn.

If one thinks nothing exists beyond the box, can one ever acquire wisdom??

One can see a person and think that is it,then later Discover DNA. More knowledge exists beyond the surface. God has placed knowledge all around us. It waits to be Discovered. It has always been there.

The rabbit hole runs deeper than can be confined in any box. Can you see? All the secrets of the universe and all your answers are staring you in the face. What are you waiting for?? Me? Your journey and Discoveries must be yours!! I won't value believing, accepting, nor rejecting!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[blü 2]

You want me to define God within your terms that fits within your knowledge base. Perhaps, you need to Discover who you really are so you can have a frame of reference to what I speak.

I have a workable notion of who I am.

You don't seem to have managed a workable distinction between what goes on in your head and what exists and happens in the world external to you.

And so far you haven't offered even one definition of God appropriate to a being with objective existence. So what in fact do you think you're looking for?

Assumptions shield you from the truth.

We have radically different definition of "truth". I think a statement is true to the extent it accurately reflects objective reality, and you think it has something to do with numbers, though you haven't said what, exactly. You haven't, for example, put "I drove here today" into a mathematical form and demonstrated how that form is thereby true ─ especially if I didn't drive here today.

So how does that work?

Does reality really depend upon senses?

No, we depend on our senses to inform us about reality. We've evolved to do that in particular ways useful to survival, but it works reasonably well.

I speak of God. You do not understand. I tell you of God's nature.

All you've said is that God is real; but you've repeatedly failed to back that assertion with any evidence (and that's not for want of my asking you).

Otherwise you've said nothing meaningful about God.

So I continue to think your God is a concept / thing imagined which is strictly personal to you and has nothing like objective existence.

 

[Bird123]

I have a workable notion of who I am.

You don't seem to have managed a workable distinction between what goes on in your head and what exists and happens in the world external to you.

And so far you haven't offered even one definition of God appropriate to a being with objective existence. So what in fact do you think you're looking for?
We have radically different definition of "truth". I think a statement is true to the extent it accurately reflects objective reality, and you think it has something to do with numbers, though you haven't said what, exactly. You haven't, for example, put "I drove here today" into a mathematical form and demonstrated how that form is thereby true ─ especially if I didn't drive here today.

So how does that work?
No, we depend on our senses to inform us about reality. We've evolved to do that in particular ways useful to survival, but it works reasonably well.
All you've said is that God is real; but you've repeatedly failed to back that assertion with any evidence (and that's not for want of my asking you).

Otherwise you've said nothing meaningful about God.

So I continue to think your God is a concept / thing imagined which is strictly personal to you and has nothing like objective existence.

This is Great. You absolutely have no clue. God is a Spiritual Being. You are trying to put God in your physical box. Good luck with that. The control you desire will never be acquired. Still, by all means, try all you want.

In this time-based causal universe, God's actions can be seen. On the other hand you choose to be blind to it all simply because God existing is outside your box.

Choosing that does not matter. Why? WE and the universe are created actions of God. Figure out how and why everything works and you will start to understand God. When you understand the actions of anyone, it speaks to who they are.

Now, you can choose a stubborn and narrow view, keeping in that box where you are attempting to keep everything out that you do not want in, however that will do you no good. Between lives you are going to bump into God. This happens for reasons I bet you could not imagine.

Carry on, Make your choices. Even the most stubborn move forward no matter how slowly. There is no time limit on learning.

If you choose to think God is only in my head, feel free to do so. I place Real Truth in the world. I make no demands or threats or coercion to try to get anyone to believe. Believing has never ever been the goal of God nor I. Your journey is yours. Wander all you want. We all end up at the same place given enough lessons and learning.

Those who are ready understand what I have been saying. Those that don't are not far enough along their journey. In a multilevel classroom, this is commonplace.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[blü 2]

This is Great. You absolutely have no clue. God is a Spiritual Being. You are trying to put God in your physical box. Good luck with that. The control you desire will never be acquired. Still, by all means, try all you want.

I've already pointed out to you that the only manner in which "spiritual beings" are known to exist is as concepts / things imagined in individual brains. If God can't be found in reality ─ the world external to the self ─ then God does not have objective existence, is not real.

In this time-based causal universe, God's actions can be seen.

How can you tell ? You don't even know what a real "god" is, any more than I do.

WE and the universe are created actions of God.

Since you don't know what a real God is, you have less than no basis for saying that.

If you choose to think God is only in my head, feel free to do so.

You've told me in no uncertain terms that your God is only found in your head. [He]'s certainly not found in reality, or you could show [him] to me.

I place Real Truth in the world.

By "real truth" you mean mathematical accuracy of some kind, I take it? You still haven't explained that part to me.

Or else, what test will tell the impartial onlooker whether a statement already true should have the additional dignifier "real" truth or not?

I make no demands or threats or coercion to try to get anyone to believe.

But we're not up to that part yet. You haven't put anything on the table to believe in.