Why do people believe what they believe?

[Tony B]

That's all quite true. Objective truth does exist.

The problem arises in that not only are our senses a bit flawed, but our ability to properly understand the data is pretty lousy. Our reasoning is impaired by confirmation bias, informational influence, leaping to conclusions without adequate information, compliance issues, instinctual assignment of agency, self serving bias, and on and on and on.

This is why we can all live in the same world with the same sun and the same blue sky, and yet have radically different opinions.

When someone says, "My truth," they don't ordinarily mean that there is more than one objective truth or that there is no objective truth. What they are saying is "Given all that I know and think, this is what that truth looks like to me. And I understand that things may look very different for you."

I wouldn't disagree, however, it is used all the time, especially by new agers, to indicate that the truth can be subjective, this is often a deliberate deceit IMHO.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yet no-one in all Christianity pays any attention to this nonsense, you'd think we'd all have noticed if this was true.

Most Baha'is in the western world were former Christians so that shows that some Christians did pay attention and believe.
However, it is impossible for Christians to recognize Baha'u'llah if they have their minds made up that what they believe is the only truth.
If they don't even look at the claims of Baha'u'llah how can they ever know if they are true?

If you know the history of Christianity you would know that Jesus was treated exactly the way Baha'u'llah was treated, for the same reasons.

“When Christ appeared He manifested Himself at Jerusalem. He called men to the Kingdom of God, He invited them to Eternal Life and He told them to acquire human perfections. The Light of Guidance was shed forth by that radiant Star, and He at length gave His life in sacrifice for humanity.

All through His blessed life He suffered oppression and hardship, and in spite of all this humanity was His enemy!

They denied Him, scorned Him, ill-treated Him and cursed Him. He was not treated like a man—and yet in spite of all this He was the embodiment of pity and of supreme goodness and love……..

It was not until many years after His ascension that they knew who He was, and at the time of His ascension He had only a very few disciples; only a comparatively small following believed His precepts and followed His laws. The ignorant said, ‘Who is this individual; He has only a few disciples!’ But those who knew said: ‘He is the Sun who will shine in the East and in the West, He is the Manifestation who shall give life to the world’.

What the first disciples had seen the world realized later.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Paris Talks, Pages 116-118

Cool story bro', you keep telling yourself whatever makes you happy.

FYI, I am not a bro.

You previously stated the claims of Baha'u'llah are 'completely consistent with the Bible', you just contradicted yourself, as part of the Holy Trinity Jesus did return to earth to perform miracles, he is part of the holy Trinity.

I meant that the claims of Baha'u'llah to be the return of Christ and the end times messiah are are 'completely consistent with the Bible.'

If only that was in English and made any sense. It's weird how virtually the whole world missed this miracle maker and he has no relevance, it's as if it's all made up...

It's weird how virtually the whole world missed Jesus and He had no relevance for a long time after he had walked the earth.

The Truth is never obvious to everyone. In fact, few people find it, especially during the first centuries.

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

There are reasons why few people find it.
Few people find the narrow gate and even fewer people enter through it because it is narrow, so it is difficult to get through...
It is difficult to get through because one has to be willing to give up all their preconceived ideas, have an open mind, and think for themselves. Most people do not embark upon such a journey. They go through the wide gate, the easy one to get through – their own religious tradition or their own preconceived ideas about God or no god. They follow that broad road that is easiest for them to travel.... and that is why the NEW religion is always rejected by most people for a very long time after it has been revealed.

 

[Alien826]

I see, so you politically pigeon-holed me automatically, interesting. I am in the UK and I am neither right nor left, which are paradigms created by the useless eliters to divide and conquer. The red and blue parties are just theatre and essentially cheeks of the same backside, if you haven't worked this out yet I sympathise.

Actually "religious right" refers to the "conservative" end of the spectrum of religious belief, typically Bible literalists, YEC and the like, not the right politically. Though they do tend to vote Republican these days, often because their "hot button" issues like abortion have been taken up by the Republicans in order to get their votes.

Thanks, I may do that.

Please do.

I just wish you had properly read what I wrote, the point about the Ark was germane to my point, so I didn't need to create another thread on it.

Didn't you say something about people telling you that you could only post in this other thread? My apologies if I have misunderstood you. Put it down to my laziness in not wanting to search for the actual quote for a relatively unimportant point.

Do you mean this Snopes?

Co-founder of “fact-check” site Snopes suspended by his own company after being caught in bizarre plagiarizing scandal

I can't believe you actually think Snopes has any credibility whatsoever. Ron Wyatt literally videoed and documented his discovery of the Ark, interestingly you won't find this on any of the big tech censored sites, this should tell you something, Wyatt's discoveries are heavily censored, it's almost as if certain people don't want you to know the truth.

https://odysee.com/@Thecontentgather:3/Ron-Wyatt-Discoveries--2022--Gomorrah,-Red-Sea-Crossing,-Mt-Sinai,-Noah's-Ark,-Blood-of-Christ:d

I just did a quick search on the subject so I had something on the subject. A full investigation of the subject would of course require a lot more, and involve checking Snopes' sources.

From your earlier remark, do I take it that you won't be starting a thread on Noah's Ark? I would find it interesting if you did.

 

[Tony B]

Most Baha'is in the western world were former Christians so that shows that some Christians did pay attention and believe.

That's both an unsubstantiated claim and essentially irrelevant.

However, it is impossible for Christians to recognize Baha'u'llah if they have their minds made up that what they believe is the only truth.
If they don't even look at the claims of Baha'u'llah how can they ever know if they are true?

I've looked at the claims and find them absurd, as I have previously said, claiming God is using multiple different faiths, all conflicting with each other, at different times, is simply for the birds, and it certainly is not in accordance with scripture, as you claimed.

If you know the history of Christianity you would know that Jesus was treated exactly the way Baha'u'llah was treated, for the same reasons.

I think you're putting the cart before the horse there matey, how convenient this faith that no-one has heard of copied Christ's story.

“When Christ appeared He manifested Himself at Jerusalem. He called men to the Kingdom of God, He invited them to Eternal Life and He told them to acquire human perfections. The Light of Guidance was shed forth by that radiant Star, and He at length gave His life in sacrifice for humanity.

All through His blessed life He suffered oppression and hardship, and in spite of all this humanity was His enemy!

They denied Him, scorned Him, ill-treated Him and cursed Him. He was not treated like a man—and yet in spite of all this He was the embodiment of pity and of supreme goodness and love……..

It was not until many years after His ascension that they knew who He was, and at the time of His ascension He had only a very few disciples; only a comparatively small following believed His precepts and followed His laws. The ignorant said, ‘Who is this individual; He has only a few disciples!’ But those who knew said: ‘He is the Sun who will shine in the East and in the West, He is the Manifestation who shall give life to the world’.

What the first disciples had seen the world realized later.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Paris Talks, Pages 116-118

Cool, you completely plagiarised the story of Christ, most convincing. However, you're not the first, Islam, from which your faith appears to have originated, did exactly that in many ways previously, there seems to be some form here..

FYI, I am not a bro.

It's a figure of speech.

I meant that the claims of Baha'u'llah to be the return of Christ and the end times messiah are are 'completely consistent with the Bible.'

And yet they aren't, because no-one noticed, and the Bible certainly does not promote that absurdity, did your false prophet arrive on a white horse? what happened to the tribulation?etc etc.

It's weird how virtually the whole world missed Jesus and He had no relevance for a long time after he had walked the earth.

The Truth is never obvious to everyone. In fact, few people find it, especially during the first centuries.

Again, that's weird, because the Book of Revelation makes it quite clear that no-one is going to miss Christ's return, yet apparently everyone did, this is why this its absurd.

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

There are reasons why few people find it.
Few people find the narrow gate and even fewer people enter through it because it is narrow, so it is difficult to get through...
It is difficult to get through because one has to be willing to give up all their preconceived ideas, have an open mind, and think for themselves. Most people do not embark upon such a journey. They go through the wide gate, the easy one to get through – their own religious tradition or their own preconceived ideas about God or no god. They follow that broad road that is easiest for them to travel.... and that is why the NEW religion is always rejected by most people for a very long time after it has been revealed.

Again, that's a lovely story and misinterpretation of scripture. The narrow gate is narrow because few accept Christ as their savior, we know this because Christ made it crystal clear by saying the following;

No one comes to the Father except through me.” ‭‭John‬ ‭14:6‬ ‭

The narrow gate has nothing to do with a new religion other than the New Testament of Christ and Christianity, and to claim otherwise is a complete deceit. Your faith appears to be forgotten by God, this makes it the least convincing story just about ever told.

 

[Tony B]

Actually "religious right" refers to the "conservative" end of the spectrum of religious belief, typically Bible literalists, YEC and the like, not the right politically. Though they do tend to vote Republican these days, often because their "hot button" issues like abortion have been taken up by the Republicans in order to get their votes.

I don't care what you call it, I am not part of it, politics is simply theatre as I said, they all work for the same people.

Please do.

Didn't you say something about people telling you that you could only post in this other thread? My apologies if I have misunderstood you. Put it down to my laziness in not wanting to search for the actual quote for a relatively unimportant point. No one comes to the Father except through me.” ‭‭John‬ ‭14:6‬ ‭

There appears to be some confusion here, lets just leave it at that, it's not important.

I just did a quick search on the subject so I had something on the subject. A full investigation of the subject would of course require a lot more, and involve checking Snopes' sources.

From your earlier remark, do I take it that you won't be starting a thread on Noah's Ark? I would find it interesting if you did.

Maybe I shall, but I'd need to check what has already been posted, I doubt it's the truth that's for sure. I highly recommend you simply watch what Ron Wyatt found, and it isn't what Snopes claims either.

 

[Alien826]

@Tony B, a quick tip. RF has a problem sometimes where it appears not to have posted a reply when it actually has. You click the "Post reply" button and get a "processing" thingy at the top right corner. After a while it goes away but the quote section remains. Pretty much always, it has in fact been posted and if you click "Post" again you get a duplicate. What I do is to pull up the thread in another tab to see if my post appears, If so, it's safe to delete the faulty tab.

 

[Tony B]

@Tony B, a quick tip. RF has a problem sometimes where it appears not to have posted a reply when it actually has. You click the "Post reply" button and get a "processing" thingy at the top right corner. After a while it goes away but the quote section remains. Pretty much always, it has in fact been posted and if you click "Post" again you get a duplicate. What I do is to pull up the thread in another tab to see if my post appears, If so, it's safe to delete the faulty tab.

Thanks, I appreciate the advice.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I wouldn't disagree, however, it is used all the time, especially by new agers, to indicate that the truth can be subjective,

In my experience, the average person never even asks what reality is, and those who do seldom give it more than a cursory glance, often just parroting whatever their friends say. LOL

There really are very few people who think that reality is subjective. Hinduism does indeed claim that all reality is illusion.

I've met New Agers who often use the expression "This is my reality." Most of them are just mimicking their friends and haven't ever thought it through. What I find is a willingness to admit that people with the best of intentions can religiously disagree, and yet be tolerant of each other, realizing that most religious expressions are meaningful and helpful. It's a way of refusing to debate differences. "Let's not argue. I accept that you see things differently, and we're good." One of the reasons they are so tolerant of disagreement is because they approach it with the "blind men and the elephant" mentality -- and quite honestly, I share that view with them.

It's really a philosophical idea, and quite honestly, the philosophers are NOT saying there is no objective reality. Just that we cannot possibly objectively perceive it.

Friedrich Nietzsche did not claim that there is no objective reality in the sense that reality itself does not exist, but he did challenge the idea that human beings can access or know an objective, universal truth about it. Nietzsche was highly skeptical of metaphysical claims about "absolute" truths, particularly those that had dominated Western philosophy through religion and morality.

In his work, Nietzsche emphasized that what we perceive as "truth" is often a construct influenced by human perspectives, interpretations, and power dynamics. He developed the idea of perspectivism, which asserts that all knowledge and truths are contingent upon the individual's perspective, and there is no "view from nowhere" — no truly objective standpoint. This does not mean reality doesn't exist, but that our access to it is always filtered through subjective lenses.

I really detest Nietzsche, but he was correct on this point.

this is often a deliberate deceit IMHO.

I get so sick and tired of people accusing other people of lying for no other reason than they have a different point of view. "You don't REALLY not believe in God, the truth is you DO believe in God but you don't like him." "You don't REALLY think Trump will destroy our democracy, you are just saying that to flame him." "You're not REALLY bored with this game, you are just angry cuz you know you're gonna lose." "You're not REALLY tired and exhausted, you're just lazy." It's a form of gaslighting.

In terms of these New Agers you've run into who express this idea, I find no deliberate deceit. They believe what they say.

 

[Tony B]

In my experience, the average person never even asks what reality is, and those who do seldom give it more than a cursory glance, often just parroting whatever their friends say. LOL

This is often the case.

There really are very few people who think that reality is subjective. Hinduism does indeed claim that all reality is illusion.

Yes, I quickly ruled out Hinduism as credible some time ago, especially the whole 'two diametrically opposing ideas can both be correct' rubbish.

I've met New Agers who often use the expression "This is my reality." Most of them are just mimicking their friends and haven't ever thought it through. What I find is a willingness to admit that people with the best of intentions can religiously disagree, and yet be tolerant of each other, realizing that most religious expressions are meaningful and helpful. It's a way of refusing to debate differences. "Let's not argue. I accept that you see things differently, and we're good." One of the reasons they are so tolerant of disagreement is because they approach it with the "blind men and the elephant" mentality -- and quite honestly, I share that view with them.

It's really a philosophical idea, and quite honestly, the philosophers are NOT saying there is no objective reality. Just that we cannot possibly objectively perceive it.

Friedrich Nietzsche did not claim that there is no objective reality in the sense that reality itself does not exist, but he did challenge the idea that human beings can access or know an objective, universal truth about it. Nietzsche was highly skeptical of metaphysical claims about "absolute" truths, particularly those that had dominated Western philosophy through religion and morality.

In his work, Nietzsche emphasized that what we perceive as "truth" is often a construct influenced by human perspectives, interpretations, and power dynamics. He developed the idea of perspectivism, which asserts that all knowledge and truths are contingent upon the individual's perspective, and there is no "view from nowhere" — no truly objective standpoint. This does not mean reality doesn't exist, but that our access to it is always filtered through subjective lenses.

I really detest Nietzsche, but he was correct on this point.

Nietzsche was a nihilist and atheist, of course he said that, there's nothing subjective about experiencing God.

I get so sick and tired of people accusing other people of lying for no other reason than they have a different point of view. "You don't REALLY not believe in God, the truth is you DO believe in God but you don't like him." "You don't REALLY think Trump will destroy our democracy, you are just saying that to flame him." "You're not REALLY bored with this game, you are just angry cuz you know you're gonna lose." "You're not REALLY tired and exhausted, you're just lazy." It's a form of gaslighting.

I'm going to have to disappoint again and state that I'm onboard with 'You know God exists, you just refuse to accept him because it requires you to acknowledge your sin'. I'm with God on this one, he is quite clear about knowledge of his existence and I can't contradict him.

In terms of these New Agers you've run into who express this idea, I find no deliberate deceit. They believe what they say.

Indeed, but as per your first point, they unthinkingly repeat this nonsense, so I'm not fully blaming them (only the unthinking part), there are people deliberately filling their heads with this rubbish, I hear it regularly.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's both an unsubstantiated claim and essentially irrelevant.

How do you think it could be substantiated that most Baha'is in the western world were formerly Christians, which shows that some Christians did pay attention and believe?

However, it is irrelevant as to whether the Baha'i Faith is true or not. It is either true or false.

I've looked at the claims and find them absurd, as I have previously said, claiming God is using multiple different faiths, all conflicting with each other, at different times, is simply for the birds, and it certainly is not in accordance with scripture, as you claimed.

The fact that you have looked at the claims and find them absurd is irrelevant.
Of course it is not in the biblical scriptures. The fact that God has revealed God multiple different faiths over the course of time was not revealed until Baha'u'llah came and revealed it.

I think you're putting the cart before the horse there matey, how convenient this faith that no-one has heard of copied Christ's story.

I never said that the Baha'i Faith has copied Christ's story. I said "If you know the history of Christianity you would know that Jesus was treated exactly the way Baha'u'llah was treated, for the same reasons."

Baha'u'llah's story is different from Christ's story.

Cool, you completely plagiarised the story of Christ, most convincing. However, you're not the first, Islam, from which your faith appears to have originated, did exactly that in many ways previously, there seems to be some form here..

I did not plagiarize anything. Everything I posted about what happened to Christ is true.

And yet they aren't, because no-one noticed, and the Bible certainly does not promote that absurdity, did your false prophet arrive on a white horse? what happened to the tribulation?etc etc.

That no one would notice was predicted in the Bible, which says that Christ would return like a thief in the night.

If it would be easy to recognize the return of Christ, Jesus would not have said to watch.
Christians never watched, they just waited, and waited and waited and waited.
And they will continue to wait for the same Jesus to come, even though Jesus said that His work was finished here and He was no more in the world.
(John 14:19, John 16:10, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30)

Meanwhile, the spirit of Christ returned in Baha'u'llah and they missed Him because they were not watching.

Rev 3:2-3
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Rev 16:15
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Luke 12:39-40
39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

Matthew 24
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

2 Peter 3
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Mark 13
32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
Jesus said the Son of Man will come as a thief in the night so we should be watching.

Again, that's weird, because the Book of Revelation makes it quite clear that no-one is going to miss Christ's return, yet apparently everyone did, this is why this its absurd.

Revelation 1:7
"Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”;and all peoples on earth 'will mourn because of him.' So shall it be! Amen."

Son of man coming with the clouds means that the return of Christ will appear in the form of another human being. The term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, these things hindered men from recognizing the return of Christ.

In other words, the judgment of most people was clouded when Christ returned and it is still clouded for most people.
One thing that clouds the judgment of Christians is their desire for the same Jesus to return to earth.

Again, that's a lovely story and misinterpretation of scripture. The narrow gate is narrow because few accept Christ as their savior,

That is laughable given that one third of the world population are Christians.

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

When Jesus said that, Christianity was the narrow gate that led to life. It was narrow because there were very few Christians in the first centuries, but Christianity is no longer the narrow road. It is now a wide road because many people have entered through it. Given that Christianity is now the largest religion in the world, Christianity is no longer the narrow road that leads to life.

we know this because Christ made it crystal clear by saying the following;

No one comes to the Father except through me.” ‭‭John‬ ‭14:6‬

No, Christ did not say that. You only believe that Christ said that.

Seminar Rules Out 80% of Words Attributed to Jesus : Religion: Provocative meeting of biblical scholars ends six years of voting on authenticity in the Gospels.

“Most scholars, if they had worked through the sayings as we had, would tend to agree there is virtually nothing in the fourth Gospel (John) that goes back to Jesus,” said Robert Fortna of Vassar College. Jesus says in John “I am the good shepherd . . . I am the light of the world . . . I am the bread of life,” but that “is mostly the work of the author,” Fortna said. Jesus rarely refers to himself in the other Gospels.

THE REJECTED SAYINGS

The Jesus Seminar, a six-year project based in Sonoma to assess the historical authenticity of sayings attributed to Jesus, concluded that about half were words put into his mouth by Gospel authors and early believers in reflection of their own hopes and fears. Among the sayings rejected were the following:

John 3:16: “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.”

John 14:6: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

Mark 13:25, 30: (A series of apocalyptic sayings) “Then they will see ‘the Son of Man coming in the clouds’ with great power and glory. . . . Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.”

Matthew 5:11: “Blessed are you when people revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.”

Mark 10:32-34: “See, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be handed over to the chief priests and the scribes, and they will condemn him to death; then they will hand him over to the Gentiles; they will mock him, and spit upon him, and flog him, and kill him; and after three days he will rise again.”

Seminar Rules Out 80% of Words Attributed to Jesus : Religion: Provocative meeting of biblical scholars ends six years of voting on authenticity in the Gospels.

The provocative Jesus Seminar on Sunday concluded six years of voting on what the Jesus of history most likely said, ruling out about 80% of words attributed to him in the Gospels and emerging with the picture of a prophet-sage who told parables and made pithy comments.

www.latimes.com

‭
The narrow gate has nothing to do with a new religion other than the New Testament of Christ and Christianity, and to claim otherwise is a complete deceit. Your faith appears to be forgotten by God, this makes it the least convincing story just about ever told.

Sorry, but the narrow gate now applies to the Baha'i Faith since it is the religion that few have found and have entered in.

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

“The Book of God is wide open, and His Word is summoning mankind unto Him. No more than a mere handful, however, hath been found willing to cleave to His Cause, or to become the instruments for its promotion. These few have been endued with the Divine Elixir that can, alone, transmute into purest gold the dross of the world, and have been empowered to administer the infallible remedy for all the ills that afflict the children of men. No man can obtain everlasting life, unless he embraceth the truth of this inestimable, this wondrous, and sublime Revelation.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 183-184

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Nietzsche was a nihilist and atheist, of course he said that, there's nothing subjective about experiencing God.

We may simply have to agree to disagree on this. Like I said, I have no great love of Nietzsche, but I certainly think that he was correct in his understanding that, while objective reality exists, we cannot be 100% objective about it.

I'm going to have to disappoint again and state that I'm onboard with 'You know God exists, you just refuse to accept him because it requires you to acknowledge your sin'.

Again, gaslighting. It's a form of emotional abuse. You don't get to tell someone what they "really" think, believe, feel unless you have direct evidence that they are lying. The fact that they disagree with your cherished religious beliefs is not evidence of lying.

May I humbly make a suggestion to you? There is a well known Christian author, adored by Evangelicals, named CS Lewis. One of the novels he wrote is called That Hideous Strength. It's a horror story about how some scientists reanimate some disembodied heads, which become demon possessed. They are opposed by a group of mostly Christians, but interestingly, within that group is a guy who is NOT a believer, but a skeptic. Ransom, the main protagonist, remarks that Skeptics are good because they "help keep us honest." I think if you read this novel, and sort of "try on" this idea, you may come away with a different impression of atheists.

 

[ppp]

Nietzsche was a nihilist and atheist, of course he said that, there's nothing subjective about experiencing God.

Nietzsche is an interesting guy, and one we should all read, but he is not that important to modern day nihilists. Sartre is far more impactful. Fortunately for me, I had already going thru the process of understanding meaning in a universe with no inherent meaning by the time I read either. But Nietzsche viewed nihilism as something to be overcome, whereas Sartre accepted the fundamental meaninglessness of existence and still found a way to live meaningfully within that framework. Sartre's Nausea is, IMHO, more thoughtful and considered than anything Nietzsche ever did.

Theists, such as yourself, don't move past Nietzsche because like him, your religions are stuck in the stunted perceptions of that 19th century mentality. Talking to a Baha'i about Nihilism is like talking to a YEC about Evolution - they are always poorly read and over a century behind.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Why do some people believe in the religion that they believe in and not another religion?
Why do some people consider the existence of God to be self-evident while others think that belief in God has no basis?
Why do some people believe that the Bible is the word of God while others believe it is only the words of men?

Why do people believe what they believe?

1. Because humans are programmed to listen to the adults closest to them, for their own safety.
2. Because if you make it through youth and survive, you still believe what you were told, and
3. Because actually analyzing what you believe in light of the reality around you is hard work, and who wants to do that?

 

[CG Didymus]

You previously stated the claims of Baha'u'llah are 'completely consistent with the Bible', you just contradicted yourself, as part of the Holy Trinity Jesus did return to earth to perform miracles, he is part of the holy Trinity.

Of course, they are consistent for a Baha'i. Just like everything about Jesus is consistent with the Hebrew Bible.

And about the trinity... Yes, there are verses that imply the Jesus is God. Are there any that imply that he isn't? And what do you do with them if you find any? You can't take it literally. So, it must mean something else. There must be some other way of interpreting it.

But then... what about those verses that do make it sound like Jesus is God? Is there another way to interpret them? Or only one way... and that is to take those verses as being absolutely literal?

I've looked at the claims and find them absurd

Yeah, I can't believe those Baha'is fall for that stuff.

Not like Christians... nothing whacked out and absurd there. Nothing but sensible things. Rational things. You know like plants being created the day before the sun. Like there was no rain or rainbows until the flood. Moses' staff turned into a snake. A donkey spoke. A man survived inside a big fish for three days. The sun stood still for, what about 24 hours? Yeah, makes sense. A virgin had a baby. A man walked on water. People came out of their graves and walked around town. A few people, including Jesus, were dead and came back to life. And, after coming back to life, Jesus floated off into the sky.

Yes, nothing like the "absurd" and ridiculous claims of the Baha'is.

 

[teage]

Take it literal. if you do that, you will find YHWH is not who you think he is. be careful with "metaphors", when you stand before the FATHER and he says I told you and you read it, but you changed it with a "metaphor", its then your fault.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Sartre is far more impactful. Fortunately for me, I had already going thru the process of understanding meaning in a universe with no inherent meaning by the time I read either. But Nietzsche viewed nihilism as something to be overcome, whereas Sartre accepted the fundamental meaninglessness of existence and still found a way to live meaningfully within that framework. Sartre's Nausea is, IMHO, more thoughtful and considered than anything Nietzsche ever did.

Oh my goodness, I love Sartre. Especially "No Exit." I loved all the existentialists. I still remember Camus' atheist who wanted to be a saint in "The Plague."

It appears to me that there is a huge difference between existentialism and nihilism. An existentialist would say that our lives have whatever meaning we choose to create for it. A nihilist simply says our lives have no meaning.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Take it literal. if you do that, you will find YHWH is not who you think he is. be careful with "metaphors", when you stand before the FATHER and he says I told you and you read it, but you changed it with a "metaphor", its then your fault.

So when the psalms says that the rivers clap their hands, I'm to take that literally?

I think we have to agree that some portions are literal and others are not. The only debate is which is which.

 

[ppp]

Oh my goodness, I love Sartre. Especially "No Exit." I loved all the existentialists. I still remember Camus' atheist who wanted to be a saint in "The Plague."

It appears to me that there is a huge difference between existentialism and nihilism. An existentialist would say that our lives have whatever meaning we choose to create for it. A nihilist simply says our lives have no meaning.

Nihilism does not say that our lives have no meaning, but that they have no inherent meaning. An important distinction. Like nihilism, one of the basic principles in existential philosophy is that the universe is completely indifferent to you. There is no inherent or objective meaning or purpose to existence; no moral truth or objective values, leaving individuals with no guiding principles beyond what they themselves create.

I think that p\the point you are trying to make above is that unlike in nihilism, rather than resigning ourselves to nihilism, existentialism argues that people must confront this absurdity and define their own purpose. Nietzsche grappled with this with his Übermensch and Eternal Recurrence stuff, but that was all still stuck in a religious mind set; searching for the answers in some form of Transcendence. I hold that nihilism is a nascent form of existentialism. That Nietzsche was stuck with the tools available to him at the time - effectively the "stone knives and bear skins" provided by religious thinking.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Nihilism does not say that our lives have no meaning, but that they have no inherent meaning. An important distinction. Like nihilism, one of the basic principles in existential philosophy is that the universe is completely indifferent to you. There is no inherent or objective meaning or purpose to existence; no moral truth or objective values, leaving individuals with no guiding principles beyond what they themselves create.

I think that p\the point you are trying to make above is that unlike in nihilism, rather than resigning ourselves to nihilism, existentialism argues that people must confront this absurdity and define their own purpose. Nietzsche grappled with this with his Übermensch and Eternal Recurrence stuff, but that was all still stuck in a religious mind set; searching for the answers in some form of Transcendence. I hold that nihilism is a nascent form of existentialism. That Nietzsche was stuck with the tools available to him at the time - effectively the "stone knives and bear skins" provided by religious thinking.

I am way out of my league here. Philosophy is just not something I have studied except in passing. But it is my understanding that Nihilism says the universe has no meaning, that our lives have no meaning. I realize that google and AI are only going to give superficial responses, but they do seem to confirm this. ChatGPT in particular states that existentialism is not a form of Nihilism because an existentialist will create meaning.

I do appreciate your use of the word "nacient." I believe you are saying that nihilism is the precursor to existentialism the way a fetus becomes a baby.

It's quite possible that you know way more than me about this, and you could very well be right. Like I said, way above my pay grade.

 

[an anarchist]

I do not know what I believe. I only “do”.