Why Do You Reject Jesus?

[Ebionite]

I agree Israelites as a nation can be referred to as servant, but not "the righteous servant". You did a good job, I agree with a Bahai interpretation which is rare.

Thanks, Link.

There seems to be a connection between Israel and the Bahai Declaration and and the English coat of arms, which features a lion and a unicorn.

God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn.
Surely [there is] no enchantment against Jacob, neither [is there] any divination against Israel: according to this time it shall be said of Jacob and of Israel, What hath God wrought!
Behold, the people shall rise up as a great lion, and lift up himself as a young lion: he shall not lie down until he eat [of] the prey, and drink the blood of the slain.
Numbers 23:22-24, KJV

"What hath God wrought" 5/24/1844

I wanted to post something "historical" here.. and recently rediscovered the first telegraph message which was given through the machine developed by Samuel Morse.. If you magnify the link below you can read it and also see the Morse Code message on the paper with the dots and dashes...

bahaiforums.com

 

[Link]

I think he is saying parable of a nation can be a servant as it was, but not "righteous servant" since the latter implies everyone in the nation is righteous. Since we this is not the case per the Torah, it follows righteous servant is referring to a different entity.

 

[Link]

Thanks, Link.

There seems to be a connection between Israel and the Bahai Declaration and and the English coat of arms, which features a lion and a unicorn.

God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn.
Surely [there is] no enchantment against Jacob, neither [is there] any divination against Israel: according to this time it shall be said of Jacob and of Israel, What hath God wrought!
Behold, the people shall rise up as a great lion, and lift up himself as a young lion: he shall not lie down until he eat [of] the prey, and drink the blood of the slain.
Numbers 23:22-24, KJV

"What hath God wrought" 5/24/1844

I wanted to post something "historical" here.. and recently rediscovered the first telegraph message which was given through the machine developed by Samuel Morse.. If you magnify the link below you can read it and also see the Morse Code message on the paper with the dots and dashes...

bahaiforums.com

I don't know about all those symbols, but to me, when I read Tanakh I can see it clearly says not all of the nation of Israel is righteous, there's times they deviate severely too. So the righteous servant can't be the same parable, it does not make sense. Although before that it did make sense to be about Israelites "the servant", the righteous shows it's a different entity and not referring to same parable. It can even be said to be a contrast almost.

 

[Ebionite]

Dude, I don't give a rats behind. I also don't care about the differences between Calvinism and Baptists, Mormonism vs Watchtower, Catholic vs Anglican. None of this is relevent to Isaiah 53.

It's relevant because the Pauline interpretation of the crucifixion is preferred by Christians when reading Isaiah 53. The alternative interpretation, which is consistent with the righteous servant of Psalm 35, is that the righteous servant was taken from the situation where he could be slaughtered and the wicked one was put in his grave instead.

I don't have to rebut it. We're the ones you're trying to convince, not the other way around.

Whether you are convinced or not doesn't matter, the point is that you have no counter-argument. Any explanation for all the relevant facts is better than no explanation.

Here we have the evidence you don't actually read what people say to you, at least not very closely. Maybe I should have asked more directly with smaller words.

Pretending that you actually asked won't work. It's an indication that you've been backed into a corner.

It's Jewish law, which I believe in, not "my" law. I don't care if you believe in it, I do. This is also irrelevant to Isaiah 53.

It comes down to belief vs truth. There's no reason to think that what you believe is true because you have no argument against my claim about the righteous servant.

No, you're ignorant of core Jewish theology. When you said HaShem didn't write the Talmud it wasn't because you knew the distinctions in terms of scriptural authority, you were trying to insult/dismiss it. It's fine that you don't believe in it, I do though.

So now you're arguing that I'm ignorant because I know about distinctions. Good job.

I don't care one iota what Peter, the pope, Mary, the apostles, Jesus or Joseph said.

In other words, you don't care about facts that showed that you didn't know what you were talking about when you made you false accusation against Jesus.

If Isaiah 53 is a Messianic verse then that should be demonstrable within it's own text.

I didn't claim that Isaiah 53 was a Messianic text. My claim related to the nature of the righteous servant that is described in the prophetic texts of the Tanak.

 

[Ebionite]

I don't know about all those symbols, but to me, when I read Tanakh I can see it clearly says not all of the nation of Israel is righteous, there's times they deviate severely too. So the righteous servant can't be the same parable, it does not make sense. Although before that it did make sense to be about Israelites "the servant", the righteous shows it's a different entity and not referring to same parable. It can even be said to be a contrast almost.

Symbols are used in prophetic texts as a kind of code. For example the lion of Numbers 23:24 relates to the lion of Daniel 7:4. The separation of the lion and the eagle relates to the U.S. war of independence, since the U.S. national symbol is the bald eagle.

The first [was] like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
Daniel 7:4

The symbol of the righteous servant of Isaiah 53 is the lamb, which relates to this verse from the gospels:

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 1:29

 

[Madsaac]

I think their totally sane.

What about walking on water, rising from the dead etc

 

[Jimmy]

What about walking on water, rising from the dead etc

What about them? I forgot our conversation.

 

[Jimmy]

What about walking on water, rising from the dead etc

Raising the dead? Absolutely

 

[Jimmy]

What about walking on water, rising from the dead etc

walking on water is just a story to show how Jesus defies natural laws, for example, raising the dead.

 

[River Sea]

HatHor, the Golden One, Lady of Dendera ... and I totally didn't see that coming, I never liked Ancient Egypt all that much as a child. But then I travelled to Egypt and my soul never left again.

Entering one of the sacred rooms at the Temple of Hathor at Dendera

 

[River Sea]

What is your reason for not accepting Jesus Christ as your lord and savior? The one who saves us all from eternal death—separation from God—according to the Holy Bible.

How come Pontius Pilate was the Roman prefect (governor) of Judaea? What was perfect in this situation?

 

[Jimmy]

How come Pontius Pilate was the Roman prefect (governor) of Judaea? What was perfect in this situation?

He was born into politics?

 

[River Sea]

He was born into politics?

@King Phenomenon
How does being born into politics cause perfect? Can you please explain how?

Reference to my question: How come Pontius Pilate was the Roman prefect (governor) of Judaea? What was perfect in this situation?

 

[metis]

What is your reason for not accepting Jesus Christ as your lord and savior? The one who saves us all from eternal death—separation from God—according to the Holy Bible.

Because I disagree with that premise. However, don't take this as a rejection of Jesus en toto.

 

[Jimmy]

@King Phenomenon
How does being born into politics cause perfect? Can you please explain how?

Reference to my question: How come Pontius Pilate was the Roman prefect (governor) of Judaea? What was perfect in this situation?

What was perfect about it?

 

[Trailblazer]

Because he's a myth.

I don't think that Jesus is a myth but I believe what was written about him in the NT is largely mythical.

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus has no idea that he’s being bandied about as ‘lord and saviour’.

He might be aware of that from heaven and if he is he would not like what Christians are saying about him.

 

[shunyadragon]

What is your reason for not accepting Jesus Christ as your lord and savior? The one who saves us all from eternal death—separation from God—according to the Holy Bible.

First, this is a subjective belief based on ancient tribal scripture without provenance. It is the belief of Christians for obvious reasons and rejected by others including Jews. Muslims and other religions for obvious reasons that they believe in their own ancient tribal scripture in conflict with Christianity.

Atheists, agnostics and other skeptics do not accept ancient tribal scriptures based on miracles and superstitions. Of course with many there is no evidence for reasons to believe,

 

[Truthseeker]

I don't think that Jesus is a myth but I believe what was written about him in the NT is largely mythical.

Yes, different Baha'is have different takes on that. There is some mythical stuff there, but I don't know in many cases if they are mythical. I leave it as a mystery. As I see it, His teachings are largely, if not wholly intact.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't believe the Bible is God's word.

Nor do I. It is the words of men.

I believe Jesus was a prophet of God.

Indeed. Jesus referred to himself as a prophet, and was so regarded. Jesus never referred to himself as God.

Matthew 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

Matthew 21:11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.

Luke 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.