IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I'm sure you already realize that this description of the messiah is only held by Christians. Jews would never describe the messiah this way.
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Why Do You Reject Jesus?
- Thread starter Jimmy
- Start date
Why do you complicate things? He was just saying what Jesus said:
John 5:27
MSG
“It’s urgent that you get this right: The time has arrived—I mean right now!—when dead men and women will hear the voice of the Son of God and, hearing, will come alive. Just as the Father has life in himself, he has conferred on the Son life in himself. And he has given him the authority, simply because he is the Son of Man, to decide and carry out matters of Judgment.
Apparently you and I aren’t the judge.
Of course. It was the same in Jesus’ time too. Although some did know but they preferred position and power over the truth that they knew.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
In any group (including Christians), you will have those more concerned with power and position. However, this is not why the Jews rejected Jesus. We do not accept him as messiah because he simply didn't do the things the messiah is supposed to do.
.Why do you complicate things? He was just saying what Jesus said:
John 5:27
MSG
“It’s urgent that you get this right: The time has arrived—I mean right now!—when dead men and women will hear the voice of the Son of God and, hearing, will come alive. Just as the Father has life in himself, he has conferred on the Son life in himself. And he has given him the authority, simply because he is the Son of Man, to decide and carry out matters of Judgment.
Apparently you and I aren’t the judge.
The passage you gave from Paul does not say what Jesus says above .. but it does repeat what you were told previously - That Lord Jesus is the Judge. What you failed to do however is tell us what Jesus says about how one will be judged .. and explain how Jesus says the Faith Alone Crowd shall not pass on that basis
You have once again failed to give us the life giving word of Lord Jesus on the matter. .. once again running from the Word of Jesus provided you . over and over .. but ye not yet be hearing .. still spinning this complicated web of deflection and self deception .. in big effort to run away from the "Bad Thought"
So true. Of course, the context was the book of Acts.
I didn’t say “all Jews” - I said “some”.
That is always a debate in as much as there are Jews who still do accept him. As to reasons why Jews don’t is wide and varied. For that matter there are Jews who don’t accept that Moses was a real person but rather just a myth, there are Jews who don’t believe there is a God, and the list goes on and on. Even in the Jewish community, beliefs vary from Haredi (sp?) to liberal Judaism. People are people as depicted in the Books of Kings, Chronicles and 1 & 2 Samuel where you had Jews worshipping Baal and sacrificing children.
Likewise, Christianity has its past and varied belief system today.
But Jesus made it soooo clear...
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
You seem to be in this camp:
Matthew 7 Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? .
I’m on the mercy side
.Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
I love John 3:16 I give you plenty of mercy!!
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
To me, those statements are inconsistent with each other, especially with what you wrote here previously: "Except that I go by what Matthew said and not Hillel’s version", especially since they are saying pretty much the same but from different angles.
To me, there has to be something else, namely why would God supposedly send us Jesus around 2000 years ago whereas humanity dates back millions of years as humans? And what about people who never even heard of Jesus and his message in more recent times? Don't they count? Are their sins all to be forgiven? Why?
But Jesus made it soooo clear...
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
You seem to be in this camp:
Matthew 7 Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? .
I’m on the mercy side
.Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
I agree that Jesus makes it clear .. and good on you for posting some clear passages .. but why then do you fail to understand - and run from those teachings into the loving arms of of the doctrine of snake charmers ?
As per the scripture you have posted -- there is no "free pass" through the pearly gates .. no way to escape judgement by crying out "Lord Lord .. throwing up hands to heaven .. and garbling out some unintelligible gibberish.. as the Pentecostals do --- If you have not shown mercy = Deeds - Then mercy will not be granted to you when the time comes.. and "Faith Alone" doctrine is a doctrine of darkness .. not the light.
and since you love the much interpolated John 3:16
For God loved creation so much that he gave the unique son, so that whoever trusts in him would not be destroyed, but would have eternal life.
-----------
Then hearken to the path of light .. and hearken to the word of Jesus .. as I have been saying .. when you have drifted far from the path.
But, what does it mean to Trust in the word of Jesus .. that his word is true .. because Jesus is the Logos .. and if you believe Jesus to be the Logos .. then you will trust that the word that Jesus speaks is the Word of God .. u understand ? .. simple simple ?! Do you understand that believing that Jesus is the Son of God is not how one is saved "Faith Alone" ---
Faith in the Logos = faith in the word -- that this word is from God . Living your life by this word is how one obtains salvation which leads us to the last paragraph in the Sermon on the Mount ... the only part of the Bible you should focus on until you gain understanding .. no other part of the Bible is required for salvation .. so you can quit quoting John all together -- leading to even less confusion as was requested. Matt 5-7 is all you need at the moment .. and for right now .. the last paragraph in the summation of this most famous sermon .. the topic of which is how to get into the Kingdom = by doing the Will of the Father = which is what ?? and why are you not able to answer this question .. yet call yourself a follower of Jesus ?
Hearken to the answer to the question .. the last word .. in the most famous sermon .. now pay attention
24 “Everyone[ae] who hears these words of mine and does them is like[af] a wise man[ag] who built his house on rock. 25 The rain fell, the flood[ah] came, and the winds beat against that house, but it did not collapse because its foundation had been laid on rock. 26 Everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain fell, the flood came, and the winds beat against that house, and it collapsed—it was utterly destroyed!”[ai]
The " Faith Alone" are those who hear the word .. and cry Jesus Jesus .. but do not follow .. do not do the word. No deeds .. no salvation .. but you need to understand what is meant by "deeds" as stated to you way way back .. the both positive and negative aspects of the Rule .. such that practicing "The art of not doing" .. is a deed.
What does this mean Brother Ken .. show that you understand clearly what Jesus is saying .. Since Jesus has made it Sooooooo clear
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
Speaking of the Book of Matthew, evangelistic Christians appear to purposely omit the apparent loophole in the seemingly hopeful promise of eternal salvation in Jesus from their gospel message, which is the implication that a person could lose their salvation and be eternally damned if they don't follow God's will. I am referring to Jesus' words in Matthew 7:21, which say, "Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven," and also his parable of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31–46). In this parable, the "sheep" were rewarded with eternal life for their good works of feeding the hungry, giving water to people who are thirsty, inviting in a stranger, clothing the needy, and visiting the sick or people in prison. However, Jesus lambasted the "goats" for failing to feed the hungry, quench the thirst of the thirsty, welcome strangers, clothe the needy, or pay visits to the ill or those in prison. Jesus cursed them and sent them to eternal damnation. As implied, the "goats" lacked the good works to be rewarded with eternal life, in spite of the fact that they were clearly Christians who accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.
Herein lies another inconsistent message in the Bible, in my opinion, as Romans 10:8–13 states that a person will be saved if they declare with their mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in their heart that God raised Jesus from the dead. Not only that, but this verse also states that they are justified by the belief in their heart and the profession of their faith in Jesus, and they will not be put to shame. Furthermore, Ephesians 2:8–9 states, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves; it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." In my opinion, if someone gives me a gift but arbitrarily takes it away because I don't follow their rules, then it isn't a gift. I don't consider it a gift if they arbitrarily take it away if I don't obey them.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
I think there can be a major chasm in believing about Jesus versus believing in Jesus. In the Parable of the Sheep & Goats, the Goats believe about Jesus but not in him. And Jesus states that believing in him involves helping those in need.
I’m not sure why they are inconsistent.
I think we have to see the whole of the story.
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
It doesn’t matter when man was created. As far as God is concerned, it was taken care of from the foundation of the world. First spiritually and then, physically, 2000 years ago.
When I read this, I understand the love that you are expressing. If God is a God of love, don’t you think He is able to weed through all the nuances? Why do we assume that there is no mercy when scriptures say that His wisdom is higher than our wisdom?
I don’t understand this… are you saying Jesus didn’t take the sins on the Cross?
We are now back to square one.
Especially since you don’t know anything about me… so, to review:You seem to be in this camp:
Matthew 7 Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? .
I’m on the mercy side
.Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
First, I'm very happy that you have the understanding of "two Jews, three opinions," down.
It saves me oodles of time having to explain it. Yes, there is a small minority of Jews that become Christians, just as there are Jews who become Muslim or Hindu. However, they are not representative of us as a people.
I you want to say that a very few Jews reject Jesus because to do so would threaten their position of power, I'm fine with that. But it doesn't reflect the vast majority of Jews. (For one thing, MOST Jews don't even hold positions of power.)
I think that you also need to understand that one of the intents of the gospels writers, especially John, was to widen the gap between Christianity and Judaism during a time when the differentiation was taking place, a time when what had been a Jewish sect had morphed into a Gentile religion. The way these authors did this was to present Jews as bad, especially the religious leaders and scholars. It's a kind of ad hominem -- they thought if they could disparage the religious leaders, they wouldn't have to deal with their arguments. We see this tactic in these forums all the time.
It's always kind of struck me as odd. "The Jews this." "The Jews that." But Jesus himself was a Jew, as were all his followers. He even had devotees that were Pharisees, like Nicodemus. SMH
So anyhow, I stand by my original point. The MAIN reason that Jews reject Jesus as the messiah is that he didn't fulfill the prophecies.
Isaiah 2:3-4
"
3 Many peoples will come and say,
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the temple of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths.”
The law will go out from Zion,
the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
4 He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore."
IOW, the Messiah will usher in an era of worldwide peace between the nations. Jesus didn't do that, thus, he is ruled out as a possible messiah.
teage
Member
Lets say that Jews are correct, with that in mind, if the messiah actually did come do you think these modern humans would recognize him or shrug him off as another "crazy"? It would be interesting to see your opinion on it given how sterile humanity has become.First, I'm very happy that you have the understanding of "two Jews, three opinions," down.
Yes, there is a small minority of Jews that become Christians, just as there are Jews who become Muslim or Hindu. However, they are not representative of us as a people.
I you want to say that a very few Jews reject Jesus because to do so would threaten their position of power, I'm fine with that. But it doesn't reflect the vast majority of Jews. (For one thing, MOST Jews don't even hold positions of power.)
I think that you also need to understand that one of the intents of the gospels writers, especially John, was to widen the gap between Christianity and Judaism during a time when the differentiation was taking place, a time when what had been a Jewish sect had morphed into a Gentile religion. The way these authors did this was to present Jews as bad, especially the religious leaders and scholars. It's a kind of ad hominem -- they thought if they could disparage the religious leaders, they wouldn't have to deal with their arguments. We see this tactic in these forums all the time.
It's always kind of struck me as odd. "The Jews this." "The Jews that." But Jesus himself was a Jew, as were all his followers. He even had devotees that were Pharisees, like Nicodemus. SMH
So anyhow, I stand by my original point. The MAIN reason that Jews reject Jesus as the messiah is that he didn't fulfill the prophecies.
Isaiah 2:3-4
"
3 Many peoples will come and say,
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the temple of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths.”
The law will go out from Zion,
the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
4 He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore."
IOW, the Messiah will usher in an era of worldwide peace between the nations. Jesus didn't do that, thus, he is ruled out as a possible messiah.
LOL… Yes.First, I'm very happy that you have the understanding of "two Jews, three opinions," down.
Agree completely
Agreed… the context was the book of Acts.
I think this is a position of your personal interpretation although, perhaps, may be true in forums.
The Gospel of Matthew was written specifically for Jewish understanding and not for creating a division.
The other Gospels were written for other purposes but none for widening any gaps.
I’m not sure what part you are referencing. Are you talking more about the leaders of that time?
We find that this is normal and understandable — and partially right...
When Yeshua Hamashiach took the scroll of Isaiah and said of himself:
Isaiah 61 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lordhath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord,
He omitted the following: "and the day of vengeance of our God” because that is yet to come.
I have come to understand that in God’s perspective “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.” and that our timetable isn’t God’s timetable.
Jesus fulfilled the prophecies up to the crucifixion but hasn’t finished fulfilling prophecy - specifically the one you mentioned.
He has fulfilled:
Micah 5:2; Genesis 49:10; Hosea 11:1; Jeremiah 31:15; Zechariah 11:12-13; Isaiah 53:12; Zechariah 12:10; Isaiah 53:5-12 and a host of others.
When peace comes, as you correctly quoted, it will be when Yeshua Hamashiach comes back to reign fulfilling the balance of the prophecies.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Keep in mind that while some religious Jews believe in a literal human messiah, other religious Jews see "the Messiah" as a metaphor for the actions we take to help bring about the idyllic messianic age. I will try to answer your question from the POV of the first group.
The whole world will recognize the messiah.
Isaiah 11:10:
"In that day, the root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his resting place will be glorious."
So, it follows that if the whole world does NOT "rally to him," then that person is not the messiah.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I found scholarly articles which addressed this, but every single one required a membership to the library or society. I don't expect you to accept this merely because I said it. However, I would hope that you would let the possibility roll around in your head for a month or year or decade, and see if you can't see it for yourself in the text of the gospels.
No, not specifically the leadership. There are a gazillion statements about "the Jews" especially in the gospel of John that treat Jews as if we are monolithic when we are not. The author of John mentions "the Jews" 34 times. It is clear that him and his community, the Jews were "them" rather than "us." Here is just one example.
John 6:41
At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.”
But yes, the gospels single out the religious leaders for special scorn, ridicule and condemnation. Keep in mind that these are the people who were teaching everyone to obey and worship God. The Pharisees took ethical monotheism to the remote parts of the Roman empire. They interpreted the law in such a way as to make it easier to obey. They created the first Jewish day schools where boys could learn to read the Torah for themselves. They built synagogues that functioned as places for the study of Torah and the prophets, worship of Adonai, and community hubs, basically taking Judaism out of the hands of the priesthood and giving it to the ordinary Jew. These were the good guys, yet the author of John puts into Jesus' mouth, "You belong to your father, the devil."
I don't dispute that Jesus claimed to be the Messiah. I dispute that he actually was.
I do understand your argument. However, this is the problem I find with it. If someone is able to say I'll fulfill this or that prophecy next time I come, then EVERYONE could claim to be the Messiah. Even *I* could say to you, "I am the Messiah, and I'll fulfill those prophecies next time." SMH It makes it impossible to identify the real Messiah.
The reference to Bethlehem indicates that the Messiah will come from the Davidic line. As long as Christians continue to maintain he was born of a virgin, they cannot claim he is Davidic, because that is something passed only through the biological father. Not the mom. Not a foster dad. The bio dad.
Same as above.
This clearly about the Exodus, not the messiah.
Not a messianic prophecy. This verse is understood within the context of the Babylonian exile, where Rachel, the matriarch of the tribes of Israel, symbolizes the anguish of the Israelites over the loss of their children during the destruction of Jerusalem and the exile that followed. Rachel is seen as a representative figure for the Jewish people, particularly for the northern tribes of Israel (Ephraim). Her weeping signifies the sorrow and mourning of the entire nation over the destruction and loss of life.
"And I said to them: "If it pleases you, give [me] my hire, and if not, forbear." And they weighed out my hire: thirty pieces of silver."
How does that even remotely look to you like a messianic prophecy? It's about someone who has worked, asks for their pay, and receives it.
Think for a second. If a text said, "And he shall drink wine and eat bread," it can't be used as a messianic prophecy, because it is something that commonly happens. An identifying prophecy needs to be something highly specific that is rare, otherwise it is useless. In this case, getting paid for work is a perfectly ordinary thing. It cannot be used to identify the Messiah.
Isaiah 53 is about Israel, not the Messiah.
This is a case of Christians deliberately fudging the translation to force it to fit the crucifixion. Here is a far better translation:
"And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplications. And they shall look to me because of those who have been thrust through [with swords], and they shall mourn over it as one mourns over an only son and shall be in bitterness, therefore, as one is embittered over a firstborn son."
The "me" is God. Not the Messiah.
The one thing your post demonstrates quite clearly is the Christian predilection to see messianic prophecies where none exist. The truth is that the Tanakh says almost nothing about the Messiah. It speaks about the idyllic messianic era to come, but the Messiah is almost an afterthought.
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We are now back to square one.
What is this now .. talking like this is our first post .. I know plenty about your beliefs .. and have zeroed in on at least two poison lizards .. around which you deflect and run in circles .. and now back to square one .. you running from scripture .. and now running from yourself .. pretending you are not a Sola Fide adherent .. then posting Pauline scripture . as if he is on par with the Logos .. blaspeming Jesus .. rather than showing understanding of the word of Jesus as requested .. Matt 7: 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.
Who is the foolish man Jesus is referring to .. .. if not the same foolish man James 2 is referring to .. one of those parallel scripture ring ding a dings
Who is the foolish man in James 2 Ken .. Brother of Jesus .. leader of the Church of Jersalem after the death of Jesus. Idol Martin didn't like that book much .. said it should be removed .. the actions of a wolf .. among others when we are talking that character.
Why do you wish to substitute man made dogma for "the word" Brother Ken ? where is the upside in that ? now focus .. tell us who the Foolish man is in James 2 .. ? James addressing a group of Christians at the time claiming a "work-less" salvation .. by "Faith Alone" .. who does he refer to as Foolish .. and we should definitely note how strong a word this is .... surely you are aware of this much Right !?
Who is the foolish man in James 2 Brother Ken .. no more going in circles ..