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Why do you think it's wrong for someone else to be gay?

Maninthemiddle

Active Member
You need more than a "Because I say so". You are the one running on feelings. I am asking for evidence. You don't have any and it probably frustrates you. Oops! Those are feelings too.
So you need evidence that males are designed to be with females.
Would you require evidence the canon lenses should not go on Nikon cameras.
I will give you evidence, try putting your penis into a man not including the Anus which is not a sexual organ.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You’re basically saying putting a square peg into a square hole is not factual and you can put it anywhere you feel.
You may put a round peg in a square hole if it makes you feel good but it’s foolish to argue your right as the round peg does not belong regardless of your feelings.
No, I am waiting for evidence that there is anything wrong with homosexuality. If you cannot provide any I do not see any reason to deny them the same rights that everyone else has.

You are running on feelings. The neutral position is to not punish people when you cannot prove that they did anything wrong.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
So you need evidence that males are designed to be with females.
Would you require evidence the canon lenses should not go on Nikon cameras.
I will give you evidence, try putting your penis into a man not including the Anus which is not a sexual organ.
That is only one way of enjoying sex, and homosexuals are not the only ones that do that. Sex has more functions than just reproduction . I am waiting for something besides feelings.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Do you have an answer that actually makes sense? Don’t answer that. You don’t.
It has to do with choices that are not natural. Natural is connected to evolution and natural selection, which, requires some form of sexual reproduction to pass forward genes. Gay willfully detaches from nature and natural selection since this behavior; male and male cannot reproduce. One needs heterosexual behavior to be part of natural selection.

Don't get me wrong, many gay men are nice people with a positive attitude that can be helpful to others. Many would be selected by nature for many reason, but their choice to detach, from the last step, which needs heterosexual connections, unselects themself.

What I always see as strange, is how Atheists believe in evolution, but they fail to teach natural selection in schools and show how certain human behavior breaks these natural guidelines. It is like they do not believe their own theory enough to use it for applied teaching. Then again the theory also uses dice and cards and games of chance, so any clear cut cause and effect may seem alien. This is not a moral judgement but rather a science based judgement for cataloging natural versus man made contrived.

In the 1980's, AIDS came around and plagued the gay community, more than all other demographics. AIDS and other STD's are still a problem that is disproportional for gays. This is because this detached behavior makes one more vulnerable unless you remain diligent and take manmade precautions to game the natural system.

Again, it comes back to evolution and science education that says one thing, but does not apply the theory to life experience and choices. It leaves the door open to do the opposite of natural and allow anyone to believe this is evolutionary. This is why I often think that science is not in charge of science. Science depends of others for resources; Government and Business, and the donors may have other agenda that are not science based; power and more money. Not preventing preventable disease can be a good business model if the goal is to sell drugs and other medical services.

Abortion is another from the same cloth. Pregnancy implies that the rules of natural selection have been followed; made new combined DNA, check. However, killing the unborn conflicts with an unspoken rule that birth and continued life of the offspring, are needed, just as much, or else we leave the path of evolution and natural selection. This is definitely part of a political and free market business model. The math is not hard to do. It is funny that religion can do the evolutionary math better than science, who stops short, due to quid pro quo.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It has to do with choices that are not natural. Natural is connected to evolution and natural selection
That's your Abrahamic enculturation speaking. Nature is replete with homosexuality making homosexuality natural.
Gay willfully detaches from nature and natural selection
So did I when I got a vasectomy, and yet the human race has grown since that time anyway. Also, no individual has a duty to reproduce or perpetuate the race. Evolution may have an "interest" in more human beings being made - it actually doesn't but let's stipulate that it does - but that doesn't make it in any given individuals interest that he or she join in.
One needs heterosexual behavior to be part of natural selection.
And the world is full of heterosexual behavior and babies, hence the persistence of the human race and the production of both more homosexuals and heterosexuals.
Atheists believe in evolution, but they fail to teach natural selection in schools and show how certain human behavior breaks these natural guidelines. It is like they do not believe their own theory enough to use it for applied teaching.
You don't seem to understand what the theory proposes.
killing the unborn conflicts with an unspoken rule that birth and continued life of the offspring, are needed
More religious thought. The human census has also increased everywhere legal abortion is available except where people deliberately limit their child bearing using additional means of family planning, without which man is still overpopulation the earth.
It is funny that religion can do the evolutionary math better than science
And I suppose you see yourself as having a better grasp of the theory than those elucidating it and those teaching it. Religions have nothing to teach the world about reality. Look at how many adherents pride themselves on being detached from it, bragging that the objects of their worship are beyond the purview of the senses and empiricism, meaning that they cannot be found anywhere in reality.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Says the reproductive organs obviously.
You claimed: "Natures design, Man are physically designed to be with a woman."

I replied: "Says who? Where did you come up with this?"

Your response: "Says the reproductive organs obviously."


My reproductive organs have never told me that nature's design is that men are physically designed to be with a woman.
So I ask again, says who? Where did you come up with this notion?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Male and female are designed physically for a partnership.
Says who? How do you know this?
Can same sex couples reproduce, no because they don’t go together, that’s a fact, a proven fact.
Who cares? I can't reproduce with my opposite sex partner. Does that mean I'm useless or that I wasn't "designed" properly or ... ??
Your feelings have made you delusional.
Perhaps a look in the mirror might be a good idea.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
So you need evidence that males are designed to be with females.
Would you require evidence the canon lenses should not go on Nikon cameras.
I will give you evidence, try putting your penis into a man not including the Anus which is not a sexual organ.
LOL Lots of people of all sexual orientations use it as a sexual organ all the time. It seems to have been designed for pleasure as well. Oopsy.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
It has to do with choices that are not natural. Natural is connected to evolution and natural selection, which, requires some form of sexual reproduction to pass forward genes. Gay willfully detaches from nature and natural selection since this behavior; male and male cannot reproduce. One needs heterosexual behavior to be part of natural selection.

Don't get me wrong, many gay men are nice people with a positive attitude that can be helpful to others. Many would be selected by nature for many reason, but their choice to detach, from the last step, which needs heterosexual connections, unselects themself.

What I always see as strange, is how Atheists believe in evolution, but they fail to teach natural selection in schools and show how certain human behavior breaks these natural guidelines. It is like they do not believe their own theory enough to use it for applied teaching. Then again the theory also uses dice and cards and games of chance, so any clear cut cause and effect may seem alien. This is not a moral judgement but rather a science based judgement for cataloging natural versus man made contrived.

In the 1980's, AIDS came around and plagued the gay community, more than all other demographics. AIDS and other STD's are still a problem that is disproportional for gays. This is because this detached behavior makes one more vulnerable unless you remain diligent and take manmade precautions to game the natural system.

Again, it comes back to evolution and science education that says one thing, but does not apply the theory to life experience and choices. It leaves the door open to do the opposite of natural and allow anyone to believe this is evolutionary. This is why I often think that science is not in charge of science. Science depends of others for resources; Government and Business, and the donors may have other agenda that are not science based; power and more money. Not preventing preventable disease can be a good business model if the goal is to sell drugs and other medical services.

Abortion is another from the same cloth. Pregnancy implies that the rules of natural selection have been followed; made new combined DNA, check. However, killing the unborn conflicts with an unspoken rule that birth and continued life of the offspring, are needed, just as much, or else we leave the path of evolution and natural selection. This is definitely part of a political and free market business model. The math is not hard to do. It is funny that religion can do the evolutionary math better than science, who stops short, due to quid pro quo.
Ummm, gay people can reproduce.

Personally, I don't care who "reproduces" and I don't see sex as just a means of reproducing and I find it weird that anyone does, to be honest.
 

flowerpower

Member
I can't see any reason at all why someone else being gay would be "wrong" unless their personal expression of being gay somehow offends someone else in an undue way or a way that encroaches on the rights of others (which actually does happen, believe it or not, although I think instances of that are rare).

On a kind of side note, my opinion on homosexuality has had an interesting development over time.

When I was young, I just simply accepted, without a critical thought, that homosexuality is just the way some people are born naturally and that there is absolutely nothing wrong with what consenting adults do as far as their sex life goes. On that note, I was always a supporter of basic human rights for gays and was impressed when the west finally made gay marriage legal in most western countries.

Today, however, I'm a little less sure about gay culture as it stands in general terms. I'm open to the possibility that being gay is both a choice and a natural way of being and interacting with the world. The LGBT community in particular seems to have become increasingly problematic since the west gave them pretty much everything they've asked for (which has been very recently) - and the result has seemed to be kind of counterproductive in a few slight ways IMO.

When an oppressed, marginalized, minority community or movement fights for something and that something is attained or fights against something and that something is defeated, those communities and movements sometimes have a funny way of going looking for trouble or problems where there are no problems or trouble. I'm pleased that the gay community has enjoyed as much progress as it has over the last couple of decades (and especially very rapidly over the last 10 years or so) but I'm starting to see some very odd phenomenon taking place and I'm not entirely sure that its a good thing - I'll elaborate if someone asks me to. I think I'm still way too young to be a "hey kids!!! get off my damn lawn!!!" person but I'm definitely starting to feel out of touch (which might simply be a me problem) and some things just don't seem as logical or helpful as the people adopting these things seem to think that they are. The "gender fluid" stuff and the massive spike in young people identifying as gay or part of the gay community is very suspect to me. Like a person's sexuality is suddenly a trendy fad type of deal? Um, what?

I'm not gay or a part of the gay community so I accept that I speak from ignorance but my recent commitment to calling a spade a spade has me thinking about things in ways that I never before would have predicted. Ultimately it does come from a place of kindness and compassion though, so that's something I guess.

All that being said - I'll circle back to the OP and restate my answer verbatim: I can't see any reason at all why someone else being gay would be "wrong" unless their personal expression of being gay somehow offends someone else in an undue way or a way that encroaches on the rights of others (which actually does happen, believe it or not, although I think instances of that are rare).
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Ummm, gay people can reproduce.

Personally, I don't care who "reproduces" and I don't see sex as just a means of reproducing and I find it weird that anyone does, to be honest.

The natural goal of sex is reproduction, just as the natural goal of eating is to add fuel and nutrients to the body. Since these two prime directives of instinct are so important to life, there is carrot on the string, to help lead the horse to water; carrot of desire and pleasure has a natural goal. The problem is desire and pleasure, as the end onto itself, may not always be natural for the body, since not all roads of desire and pleasure, lead to the prime directive. This ability to choose is connected to will and choice. We do not have to be healthy or natural, if we choose.

This is easier to see and less insulting if we first look at the prime directive of food and eating. If our joy and desire to eat, always involved highly marbled beef with lots of fat, this may maximize pleasure; carrot. However, it can cause health problems, since this type of eating does not lead to the prime directive; healthy body; but lingers at the carrot or lure of pleasure. Should or does culture accept any form of eating, as long as it makes you are compulsively happy? If I like salt why should I put less? Or should a distinction be made; rule of thumb, so people know the line in the sand between carrot and water; better balance. We do that with eating, but with sex, we stop short of any line in the sand of natural and man made due to will and choice. There is money to be made if we have no line in the sand.

This is not a value judgement anymore than defining the line between healthy eating; water, and junk foods; any pleasure carrot is an acceptable end onto itself. Single gay men way over do it; buffet of common obsession, thereby creating the highest rates of disease and need for treatment, similar to those who eat too much sweets and fats, tend to need more medical care. The ancient saw the eating disorder so to speak. Evolution is not being taught at the level of the neural firmware. Consciousness evolved with the body and it now needs to learn the line between healthy food for thought and junk food for thought.

I can't see any reason at all why someone else being gay would be "wrong" unless their personal expression of being gay somehow offends someone else in an undue way or a way that encroaches on the rights of others (which actually does happen, believe it or not, although I think instances of that are rare).

On a kind of side note, my opinion on homosexuality has had an interesting development over time.

When I was young, I just simply accepted, without a critical thought, that homosexuality is just the way some people are born naturally and that there is absolutely nothing wrong with what consenting adults do as far as their sex life goes. On that note, I was always a supporter of basic human rights for gays and was impressed when the west finally made gay marriage legal in most western countries.

Today, however, I'm a little less sure about gay culture as it stands in general terms. I'm open to the possibility that being gay is both a choice and a natural way of being and interacting with the world. The LGBT community in particular seems to have become increasingly problematic since the west gave them pretty much everything they've asked for (which has been very recently) - and the result has seemed to be kind of counterproductive in a few slight ways IMO.

When an oppressed, marginalized, minority community or movement fights for something and that something is attained or fights against something and that something is defeated, those communities and movements sometimes have a funny way of going looking for trouble or problems where there are no problems or trouble. I'm pleased that the gay community has enjoyed as much progress as it has over the last couple of decades (and especially very rapidly over the last 10 years or so) but I'm starting to see some very odd phenomenon taking place and I'm not entirely sure that its a good thing - I'll elaborate if someone asks me to. I think I'm still way too young to be a "hey kids!!! get off my damn lawn!!!" person but I'm definitely starting to feel out of touch (which might simply be a me problem) and some things just don't seem as logical or helpful as the people adopting these things seem to think that they are. The "gender fluid" stuff and the massive spike in young people identifying as gay or part of the gay community is very suspect to me. Like a person's sexuality is suddenly a trendy fad type of deal? Um, what?

I'm not gay or a part of the gay community so I accept that I speak from ignorance but my recent commitment to calling a spade a spade has me thinking about things in ways that I never before would have predicted. Ultimately it does come from a place of kindness and compassion though, so that's something I guess.

All that being said - I'll circle back to the OP and restate my answer verbatim: I can't see any reason at all why someone else being gay would be "wrong" unless their personal expression of being gay somehow offends someone else in an undue way or a way that encroaches on the rights of others (which actually does happen, believe it or not, although I think instances of that are rare).
I agree, and I believe in live and let live. The problem is the political Left keeps waiving dirty laundry in everyone's face to keep the division of people alive. As an analogy, there are laws against spitting on the side walk since the sight of spit and mucous can make some people squeamish. The Left makes spitting on the sidewalk, legal, with the hope of desensitizing. This would be better in private, like straight couples do. It is polite for married straight couples not to show off in public. Why make others jealous or squeamish? What you do in private, does not add spit to the sidewalk.

If one needs an audience of approval for any behavior, one should considered why? I do not need the approval of others to be heterosexual since this approval comes from inside; innate. I can stay private and be happy. That which is not innate, needs faux or forced approval. The LBGTQ community is like a community of actors or players on the stage, that likes an audience. All the care needed to "Drag-up" would go to waste, without an audience. It is sort of a social show with actors needing the audience. There is also lots of loud personalities, The problem is the spitting on the sidewalk, for that approval, can trigger lack of approval and even aggression. Some people want to avoid seeing spit, and when they see someone do it, they can get mad, less their body cringe. Don't ask and don't tells, makes for clean sidewalks and friendly exchanges.

Forcing gender and LBGTQ in schools, on center stage, was bound to cause problems more than solutions. It was all about the tactic of dividing people to form a half population army of irrational compulsion that misses the prime directive. It would be like the cafeteria only selling junk foods and the parents getting upset, and then parent treated as criminal for complaining. At least there, culture made a line in the sand, so the parental criminal label could be avoided. The Lefty line is not in a natural place of balance.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The natural goal of sex is reproduction
Neither nature nor sex have goals, and even if they did, as with gods, it would still be my goals that my choices would serve, as is the case now. That's true for you as well as well as everybody else whatever you goals, including those whose goal is to please a god or get to heaven.
not all roads of desire and pleasure, lead to the prime directive.
The individual has no reason to care what others believe nature's prime directive is even if in some sense they are correct. Maybe nature's prime directive is for reality to expand and to maximize entropy. Mine is to have a pleasant life. We can both do our thing wherever nature is headed. One only need learn how nature works and how he respond to it as best he can to navigate as close to an optimal path through life as is possible for him.
The problem is the political Left keeps waiving dirty laundry in everyone's face to keep the division of people alive
The problem is that one demographic of mankind is trying to evolve in a world filled with rigid, superstitious, and bigoted people engaging in magical thinking who want to hold them back. Humanists envision a rational, tolerant world in which social and economic opportunity is maximal for the greatest number to pursue happiness as they understand it. Some Abrahamists seem intent on making that demographic's life as miserable as possible in service of what they believe their god wants from them.

And nobody's waving anything in your face or forcing you to believe or support anything about that demographic or cramming anything down your throat or mine. You don't need to pay any attention to LGBTQ+ matters if you're uninterested. You pay it more than I do, but then again, I don't have a religion telling me that I should mind.
 

flowerpower

Member
The natural goal of sex is reproduction, just as the natural goal of eating is to add fuel and nutrients to the body. Since these two prime directives of instinct are so important to life, there is carrot on the string, to help lead the horse to water; carrot of desire and pleasure has a natural goal. The problem is desire and pleasure, as the end onto itself, may not always be natural for the body, since not all roads of desire and pleasure, lead to the prime directive. This ability to choose is connected to will and choice. We do not have to be healthy or natural, if we choose.

This is easier to see and less insulting if we first look at the prime directive of food and eating. If our joy and desire to eat, always involved highly marbled beef with lots of fat, this may maximize pleasure; carrot. However, it can cause health problems, since this type of eating does not lead to the prime directive; healthy body; but lingers at the carrot or lure of pleasure. Should or does culture accept any form of eating, as long as it makes you are compulsively happy? If I like salt why should I put less? Or should a distinction be made; rule of thumb, so people know the line in the sand between carrot and water; better balance. We do that with eating, but with sex, we stop short of any line in the sand of natural and man made due to will and choice. There is money to be made if we have no line in the sand.

This is not a value judgement anymore than defining the line between healthy eating; water, and junk foods; any pleasure carrot is an acceptable end onto itself. Single gay men way over do it; buffet of common obsession, thereby creating the highest rates of disease and need for treatment, similar to those who eat too much sweets and fats, tend to need more medical care. The ancient saw the eating disorder so to speak. Evolution is not being taught at the level of the neural firmware. Consciousness evolved with the body and it now needs to learn the line between healthy food for thought and junk food for thought.


I agree, and I believe in live and let live. The problem is the political Left keeps waiving dirty laundry in everyone's face to keep the division of people alive. As an analogy, there are laws against spitting on the side walk since the sight of spit and mucous can make some people squeamish. The Left makes spitting on the sidewalk, legal, with the hope of desensitizing. This would be better in private, like straight couples do. It is polite for married straight couples not to show off in public. Why make others jealous or squeamish? What you do in private, does not add spit to the sidewalk.

If one needs an audience of approval for any behavior, one should considered why? I do not need the approval of others to be heterosexual since this approval comes from inside; innate. I can stay private and be happy. That which is not innate, needs faux or forced approval. The LBGTQ community is like a community of actors or players on the stage, that likes an audience. All the care needed to "Drag-up" would go to waste, without an audience. It is sort of a social show with actors needing the audience. There is also lots of loud personalities, The problem is the spitting on the sidewalk, for that approval, can trigger lack of approval and even aggression. Some people want to avoid seeing spit, and when they see someone do it, they can get mad, less their body cringe. Don't ask and don't tells, makes for clean sidewalks and friendly exchanges.

Forcing gender and LBGTQ in schools, on center stage, was bound to cause problems more than solutions. It was all about the tactic of dividing people to form a half population army of irrational compulsion that misses the prime directive. It would be like the cafeteria only selling junk foods and the parents getting upset, and then parent treated as criminal for complaining. At least there, culture made a line in the sand, so the parental criminal label could be avoided. The Lefty line is not in a natural place of balance.

Thank you for this post. Suddenly I feel a lot more sane. The fact that this was the only post I've made here that kind of made me nervous and second-guessing whether I should actually way in when what I posted was actually relatively tame and non-inflammatory and expressed an open mind and desire to be more informed on the topic speaks volumes IMO.

I'll state it a 3rd time - there is absolutely nothing wrong for a person to be gay on that characteristic alone.

The LBGT community has actually established itself as a separate entity from homosexuality altogether in my opinion. It didn't seem to start out that way, but, to me, that's what it has become.

It's like the movement went like this -

LBGT Community: "We demand our civil rights!!!"

Western Society: "Okay, here you go."

LBGT Community: "Um, uh... thanks?" *looks down, then back at some random marginalized person* "So what do we do now?"

Random Marginalized Person: *shrugs* "I dunno... I've got some more letters of the alphabet here - maybe we could tack these on to the end??"

It's possible that the recent surge of visibility that the transgender community has got in the media and on the political stage is a direct consequence of the LGBT community correctly identifying that the Ts have the most stigma attached to them in their community and determining that they require the most attention. Unfortunately, this has resulted in an extremely small minority of the population being placed in the spotlight and being politically dissected without a second thought for whether even trans people themselves actually want this for themselves. They then go on to compound the issue by tacking on a few more letters and a "+" sign to ensure that their movement isn't just about gay people but literally anyone who feels marginalized by their sexuality (a very dangerous and self-sabotaging move in my opinion).

An excellent example of how the LGBT community has mis-stepped and the hypocrisy involved in how it conducts itself is how factions of it decided to go to war with Dave Chappelle (another very dangerous and self-sabotaging move, I might say) - the result was him having his last Netflix special revolve around him dictating the terms of his supposed disagreement/misunderstanding with their movement that was punctuated with a story about a good friend of his who was a comedian and a trans woman who - after defending Dave Chappelle online (by simply saying that she didn't believe that he was transphobic or unfair with his jokes) and getting dragged on twitter by the LGBT community - actually killed herself. Chappelle very aptly called this special of his "The Closer" - a reference to a final knockout blow in a boxing match and said that he was done with comedy until he's convinced that we're all laughing together, with each other. And, to my knowledge, he hasn't had a special since.

All of this is evidence to me that the LBGT movement/community isn't really about rights or fairness as it currently stands. It might have started out that way, but I'm seeing enough in today's society to suggest that it's more about a convenient cash in on victimhood culture (which is actually booming in the west right now). It's like if movements for social justice were major religions, the LBGT Community would be the Catholic Church - the largest and most influential body by a margin that isn't even remotely fair and provides an unacceptable amount of avenues for internal corruption that have nothing to do with what the supposed core message of the thing in the first place.

Victimhood culture has literally become a form of currency in western society today - South Park did a great little side joke on it last year in that excellent episode that bashed Prince Harry & Meghan; they depicted an agency that works on cultivating any given individual's "brand" and the formula for doing so was insanely and hilariously reductive - essentially reducing any given person to 4 adjectives or nouns that describe who and what they are and what they stand for, the 4th and final word always being: "Victim". Very on-brand for South Park having a relatively minor side joke stand alone as a remarkably profound commentary on our society and culture today. I hate how very seriously charged words like "bigot" and "racist" get thrown around so casually today - people forget just how serious these accusations actually are and people are having their lives ruined over things that don't really matter; how ironic.

However, I am old enough to remember a time when gay people really did endure quite a lot of very nasty and ugly discrimination in western society - the early 2000s weren't terrible, but there was a lot of very obvious discrimination and bigotry. Most of it was religious bigotry that I never thought would be erased in my lifetime but I'm actually astounded to see how quickly things changed - now we actually have the pope actually groveling to the LGBT community, and no one I know seems to care about what a person's sexuality is (at least in any meaningful sense - I've never seen anyone get fired, denied housing or employment or discriminated against for being gay). In fact, there actually seems to be a lot of advantages for people today for identifying with the movement besides just getting to indulge in a status of victimhood.

Final thought: I was watching a documentary the other day about the cities in the USA that decriminalized all drugs in an attempt to mirror the success places like Portugal have seen in terms of substance abuse problems - the documentary ultimately concludes that these measures in the USA haven't been successful because the USA doesn't have the same access to or quality of healthcare (specifically mental health and substance abuse resources) that the nations who successfully decriminalized drugs have. The cities were depicted as nightmares that were full of crime and little to no law enforcement with a dramatic spike in crime, addiction and chronic homelessness - that's beside the point though. The very minor thing in the documentary that I couldn't help but notice was that there was a relatively lucid young woman who tearfully described her plight - apparently she had never touched drugs before and never planned to, however, she was homeless and living off the street because she was previously living at home and had "come out" to her family as "gender queer" - the "Q" in the LGBTQ+ community that doesn't seem to have a fixed definition as far as I know - and her family had apparently disowned her, thrown her out of their house and put her on a bus and told her to never to come home again. Very sad story I suppose but I couldn't help but wonder it there was far more too it than that (she really seemed to hit that "I'm queer / gender fluid" note unusually hard and repetitively like it was a convenient veneer or excuse that served to cover up a lot more to the story than she was sharing. I couldn't help but wonder whether the "Q" (or "+" for that matter) provides people with an opportunity to claim false victimhood status and an opportunity to identify with a community that seems to pride itself on being marginalized and, thus, naturally belligerent towards people who aren't really a threat to them at all - such as: maybe their own family who is providing them a roof over their head and love towards them when, ultimately, they don't owe this person anything?

Here we go again - another long winded post from me (because I felt the need to be thorough in my explanation) that I'm thinking twice before hitting reply because I expect some kind of bombardment of abuse for expressing it. I suppose there's only one way to find out how this sits with people...

*hits reply*
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Neither nature nor sex have goals, and even if they did, as with gods, it would still be my goals that my choices would serve, as is the case now. That's true for you as well as well as everybody else whatever you goals, including those whose goal is to please a god or get to heaven.

The individual has no reason to care what others believe nature's prime directive is even if in some sense they are correct. Maybe nature's prime directive is for reality to expand and to maximize entropy. Mine is to have a pleasant life. We can both do our thing wherever nature is headed. One only need learn how nature works and how he respond to it as best he can to navigate as close to an optimal path through life as is possible for him.

The problem is that one demographic of mankind is trying to evolve in a world filled with rigid, superstitious, and bigoted people engaging in magical thinking who want to hold them back. Humanists envision a rational, tolerant world in which social and economic opportunity is maximal for the greatest number to pursue happiness as they understand it. Some Abrahamists seem intent on making that demographic's life as miserable as possible in service of what they believe their god wants from them.

And nobody's waving anything in your face or forcing you to believe or support anything about that demographic or cramming anything down your throat or mine. You don't need to pay any attention to LGBTQ+ matters if you're uninterested. You pay it more than I do, but then again, I don't have a religion telling me that I should mind.
Atheists say they believe in science and evolution. Sexual evolution is part of the natural selection story supported by science. What you speak of is more a modern version of Atheist's Creationism; created by man, where will and choice can supersede natural if we cloud natural and if it makes you happy.

This clouding of natural is why I did most of my analysis with food and eating. Eating the worse things for the natural body; fatty foods, can make you happy. There is nothing like a prime steak. However, from what we know of the physical body, this constant pleasures is not optimized to the natural needs of the human body. Drug addition and alcoholism are also compulsive choices and their ingestion can do also damage. But people do as they wish since Atheists have life then death.

This is not about philosophy or religion, but using medical science to draw a line in the sand between natural; healthy, and choice for happiness first via desire and compulsive. Like eating healthy and enjoying rich food, people can find a balance and not just eat junk food even of chocolate is their gold. The lack of a line in the sand is concerning; ignorance is bliss. What would happen is we erased the line for food? The needs of long term health care will increase.

In 1990's studies showed that gay and bisexual men had a life expectancy 8 to 21 years less than all men. This has improved since then but not due to nature but due to medical care and drugs; fat foods. If we could come up with fat blockers we could eat fatty food and stay thin and healthier but not due to natural changers but artificial prosthesis. Transgender is way more expensive than homosexual and requires a lifetime of medical money making.Th dollars mean more than your health.

If you look at modern sexuality, somewhere along the line it separated into male and female for reproduction. The main reason for the change, away from asexual reproduction; virgin birth, was to help develop consciousness. It is much easy to have babies, if you could do all by yourself. You are here and there, which is not rocket science. Once sex was broken down into two separated halves, more conscious awareness and effort was required to find your other half.

From this separation and news needs, consciousness of signally for sexual behavior; ritual and coloration, comes to play. It can also evolve chemicals release for attraction. Signs connected to the time of year must be known, so it is time to breed. There can also be competition, etc. with each extra requirement to breeding making consciousness expand and stronger. Doing you own thing, at any level of that evolutionary process would have voided natural selection in favor of willful selection. Your genes would be lost unless one kept up.

Sex is still one of the strongest animators and motivators of the mind and body, from physical stimulation to fantasy. I think it would be useful to define the line in the sand, that stemmed from the evolution of this behavior, all the way to the time humans developed will and choice; Adam and Eve symbolize this. But for some reason this is being avoided since it may not help politics and the related business model.

I am not condemning or condoning but rather trying to make a line in the sand; guideline, so choices also contain knowledge and not just subliminal compulsion based on fads. This line is not a wall, but natural knowledge, written in the sand with a stick.

One aspect that is left out is since separate of sexes help to specialize and evolve consciousness, when men and women fall in love, there is a cross programming of the unconscious firmware of the brain, as couples merge into a team over a lifetime. This aspect does not fully program when you have two of the same kind. This may result in natural lessons lost, that could also explain the lack of knowledge of the line.
 
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flowerpower

Member
And?
Who cares?

Some people think it flies in the face of nature. It would be very easy for some to equate same sex parents with single parent households among other things.

Not me personally but I can see their point. Parenting is important to a person's psychological development. Crucial even.

But of course, there are so many variables that it kind of renders the issue of same sex parental households to be a moot point; or the concept of good parenting in general. Total crapshoot.

Lots of horror stories from heteronormative nuclear households. Or inspiring stories that come from the most unlikely of places.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Some people think it flies in the face of nature. It would be very easy for some to equate same sex parents with single parent households among other things.

If they think that it "flies in the face of nature" they are simply wrong. Homosexuality can be found throughout the animal kingdom. It may fly in the face of their religious beliefs but that is an extremely poor reason to try to ban such behavior in others. Are you going to stop eating shrimp or cheeseburgers if Jews order you not to? Are you going to stop eating bacon because it drives Muslims a bit crazy? You would probably tell them to pound sand if you regularly eat those foods. And diet is a small part of what we are. There still are people out there trying to deny the sexuality of others. There are a lot of Republicans that want the Supreme Court to overturn their ruling on marriage equality. So I do not blame the gay community and others for being rather zealous in being give the same rights, not special rights, as others.
Not me personally but I can see their point. Parenting is important to a person's psychological development. Crucial even.

Yes, but it appears that a stable household with two parents is the ideal regardless of their sexuality. At least I have not heard of any statistical studies that indicate any problems that are worse in a gay household.
But of course, there are so many variables that it kind of renders the issue of same sex parental households to be a moot point; or the concept of good parenting in general. Total crapshoot.

Once again, this can be resolved with statistical studies. One has to be careful in the set up and how it is applied but one can answer many of these difficult questions if one knows what one is doing.
Lots of horror stories from heteronormative nuclear households. Or inspiring stories that come from the most unlikely of places.
I am sorry, I do not know what you mean by this.
 

flowerpower

Member
If they think that it "flies in the face of nature" they are simply wrong. Homosexuality can be found throughout the animal kingdom. It may fly in the face of their religious beliefs but that is an extremely poor reason to try to ban such behavior in others. Are you going to stop eating shrimp or cheeseburgers if Jews order you not to? Are you going to stop eating bacon because it drives Muslims a bit crazy? You would probably tell them to pound sand if you regularly eat those foods. And diet is a small part of what we are. There still are people out there trying to deny the sexuality of others. There are a lot of Republicans that want the Supreme Court to overturn their ruling on marriage equality. So I do not blame the gay community and others for being rather zealous in being give the same rights, not special rights, as others.


Yes, but it appears that a stable household with two parents is the ideal regardless of their sexuality. At least I have not heard of any statistical studies that indicate any problems that are worse in a gay household.


Once again, this can be resolved with statistical studies. One has to be careful in the set up and how it is applied but one can answer many of these difficult questions if one knows what one is doing.

I am sorry, I do not know what you mean by this.

Yeah I think I mostly agree.

I'll try to elaborate on what you said you didn't understand - there are some parents who will invest everything they have in their lives to benefit their kids to ensure they have a safe and healthy path through life and the kids might still turn out with a lot of serious problems. Some people come out of places where they aren't cared for at all or even abused and they grow into strong, well-adjusted adults.

Even in spite of the statistics you mentioned and that I acknowledge, the way any given individual grows and the human experience they have ultimately resembles something random. Good parenting is a reasonable ideal for any parent to aspire to but it's far from fail safe.

Which brings us full circle to say that a couple of same sex parents really doesn't amount to much overall - neither good nor bad. Might have some features to it but there's nothing to suggest that it should be discouraged, prevented or outlawed.
 
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