Why does a loving God allow animals to suffer?

[pearl]

So then we're pretty much in control of God. If I want god to allow rape then all I have to do is allow it myself.

From your own image of God, realistically, how do you think she would prevent you from any act?

 

[pearl]

But it is true that much of animal suffering could potentially be prevented by humans. Maybe some of the animal suffering in the wild could also be alleviated by humans, I don't know that much about science.

I believe that Creation has been left in our hands, we are its stewards. While there is animal suffering simply by the nature of things, or natures way of population control, in our role of stewardship we are not to exploit animals, nor the environment that they are dependent on for life.

 

[Skwim]

From your own image of God, realistically, how do you think she would prevent you from any act?

Well, I guess I could think up several ways, but what difference does it make? God can do anything, can't he?

.

 

[pearl]

Well, I guess I could think up several ways, but what difference does it make? God can do anything, can't he?

I do not believe She is all powerful in that sense.

 

[Skwim]

I do not believe She is all powerful in that sense.

I know Catholicism recognizes god's omnipotence, so just where does he fall short here?

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[sun rise]

What's the significance of enduring pain and suffering in the first place? That reasoning always eludes me because pain and suffering is there because there is really no real choice in the matter outside of remedies to help ease it when it flares up.

The point I was trying to make is voluntary suffering for a purpose. In the case of athletes, the purpose is to achieve in the arena of sport.

 

[Trailblazer]

How is a young child with leukemia sinful?

How is a stillborn baby sinful?

A god who allows the innocent of his pet creation to suffer will have no problem causing distress in animals who dont even bow down to him.

Just one of my qualms toward religion

A baby is not sinful, and I really should not have used the word sinful because it carries so many negative connotations. I do not believe in original sin, I believe we are all born good. However, humans can choose to be good or bad, since they have free will, and they have a noble spiritual nature and a selfish materialistic nature. So sinful to me just means choosing to do bad things that hurt other people or animals, what most people consider immoral.

God allows many things to happen because God does not normally intervene in this world. That does not mean God is "bad" per se; only that this is the way He chose to set it up. Some of us are not always happy about that, others think it is the best thing since sliced bread.

I view nonbelievers who do not like this arrangement whereby humans and animals suffer as compassionate, and I understand why they do not believe in God. Without knowing the full picture, what awaits us on the other side after we die, it is hard to understand why we have to endure suffering in this earth world. I know something about what awaits us, and even then i sometimes get angry about the suffering I see in this world.

According to my beliefs, infants and children who suffer and die have recompense in the world to come much greater than we can imagine, so I can accommodate that in my mind. But since I do not know the fate of animals after they die, I have trouble understanding why a loving God allows them to suffer. It is true that if humans had their act together they could prevent a lot of animal suffering, and I think that sometime in the distant future that will be what we see. Right now, humans are too busy dealing with their own problems between themselves that they have to address.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe that Creation has been left in our hands, we are its stewards. While there is animal suffering simply by the nature of things, or natures way of population control, in our role of stewardship we are not to exploit animals, nor the environment that they are dependent on for life.

I agree. That is our role as humans and our responsibility. That is a Baha'i belief, so nothing has really changed in that regard since Genesis was written.

 

[james bond]

From my way of thinking, animals are given an instinct for survival just like humans. However, we live in a sinful materialistic world which includes pain, suffering and death. Thus, the innocent animals and humans are caught up in the consequences of this world. I think that animals have souls and that they, too, gain admittance to an afterlife. I also think pain and suffering is spiritual like worry and grief and not just physical body pains.

>>T: Also, as far as we know from scriptures, animals do not have an afterlife. Although it is possible they continue to exist in some form, that was not mentioned in any scriptures that I know of.<<

Where is this in scripture?

 

[ChristineM]

A baby is not sinful, and I really should not have used the word sinful because it carries so many negative connotations. I do not believe in original sin, I believe we are all born good. However, humans can choose to be good or bad, since they have free will, and they have a noble spiritual nature and a selfish materialistic nature. So sinful to me just means choosing to do bad things that hurt other people or animals, what most people consider immoral.

God allows many things to happen because God does not normally intervene in this world. That does not mean God is "bad" per se; only that this is the way He chose to set it up. Some of us are not always happy about that, others think it is the best thing since sliced bread.

I view nonbelievers who do not like this arrangement whereby humans and animals suffer as compassionate, and I understand why they do not believe in God. Without knowing the full picture, what awaits us on the other side after we die, it is hard to understand why we have to endure suffering in this earth world. I know something about what awaits us, and even then i sometimes get angry about the suffering I see in this world.

According to my beliefs, infants and children who suffer and die have recompense in the world to come much greater than we can imagine, so I can accommodate that in my mind. But since I do not know the fate of animals after they die, I have trouble understanding why a loving God allows them to suffer. It is true that if humans had their act together they could prevent a lot of animal suffering, and I think that sometime in the distant future that will be what we see. Right now, humans are too busy dealing with their own problems between themselves that they have to address.

I cant respond to that without breaking several RF rules, so i won't

 

[pearl]

I do not believe in original sin, I believe we are all born good. However, humans can choose to be good or bad, since they have free will, and they have a noble spiritual nature and a selfish materialistic nature.

That is original sin, it is our human nature to choose to be selfish and materialistic.

 

[Trailblazer]

Have you read Steven Pinker's book The Better Angels of our Nature? In it he makes the point that violence worldwide has been declining on a per capita basis for centuries and continues to decline. It would appear that, sinful or not, our morality as a species is getting better at non-violence, reducing at least that kind of suffering.

So if you're right about sin generating suffering, it would also appear that as a species we're becoming less sinful.

I do not know how many centuries that goes back, but I am not surprised if there has been some progress since the 19th century, because that is what I believe was slated to happen, slowly but surely, as the result of the Revelation of Baha’u’llah. People say they see nothing improving or that it is just getting worse, but despite the decadent old world order a new world order is in the process of being built. This is the dawn of a new day and a new world is emerging, but it is just too early to see any major changes. It is like early spring. The hearts of people are changing, one by one, and people are starting to care about each other and the world. Forums like this demonstrate that, they are the microcosm of the macrocosm.

My wife and I raised three kids who've grown up decent and capable, so I have some experience of the role of a loving parent. They don't, for example, sit on their hands when their children are suffering; they work out what's appropriate and they do it. They act. And good neighbors and citizens, when they see problems, act. A god who watches suffering and never acts can't be called a loving god.

I cannot say that you do not have a good point. I have always gravitated towards nonbelievers even though I am a believer, as I have issues with God, his invisibility and apparent inactivity. I do not however blame the Messenger of God for the message He delivered from God since that would be unjust. God is the one who created this world such as it is so God is ultimately responsible for how it was created. However, since humans have free will we are responsible for what we choose to do.

I believe that God sends Messengers to us with a message that will help us alleviate suffering and that message has the potential to do so, but that will not prevent all suffering in the world, since the material world is by its very nature a storehouse of suffering. Many people do not suffer that much while others suffer a lot, but nobody is free of all suffering. Suffering is not bad in and of itself, but when it is so great as to prevent people from living life it becomes problematic. Owing to my genetic predisposition, the way I was raised and later life circumstances, I have suffered all my life in one degree or another; and only now towards the latter part of my life have I had any kind of respite but I do not expect my suffering to end until I cast off this mortal frame and leave this world.

In what sense? They prey on each other, those that live gregariously have peck orders and thus social winners and losers; the boundaries of their lives are accordingly much more defined by sudden violent death or injury than ours are. And we can discuss their mating mores if you wish.

Animals are innocent in the sense that they live according to their instincts, so whatever they do they do to survive, not for personal gain. Humans do evil acts because they are selfish or greedy. Only humans murder for sex or money for example. That is because they have free will and they choose to do evil. Animals do not have free will so they are not culpable for anything. If they kill other animals it is only to survive.

As I understand it, HIndu scripture disagrees with you. And then we have that statement from Ecclesiastes:

Ecclesiastes 3:18 I said in my heart with regard to the sons of men that God is testing them to show them that they are but beasts. 19 For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down to the earth?

I would like to see that Hindu scripture because I believe that there is truth in all divinely revealed scripture.

I never read that scripture you cited as I am not that familiar with the Bible. I think it is saying that we all die and our bodies go back into the earth, which I believe. It is saying we do not know what happens to the spirit of man and animals, and perhaps that is why the Jews did not have a clear picture about the afterlife, and to this day they are still divided regarding that beause they do not have much to go on. Christians came up with their own version of the afterlife by slapping together OT and NT verses; so they believe that bodies once buried rise from their graves and some Christians believe they will live on a newly restored earth, like the Garden of Eden was before the Fall. People all have a right to their beliefs and non-beliefs, but I would be an atheist before believing in such a thing.

The Baha’i Faith specifies that the spirit (soul) of man goes to a spiritual world after the body dies. Although we are not told much about the nature of that world we are told it is free of the kind of suffering we endure here, the suffering caused by the material world. Also, because it is the World of Lights, we will come to understand what we do not know now. However, it is not clear about the spirit of animals and what happens to animals after they die.

Theologically I don't recall any part of the Genesis creation story where Yahweh states a reason for creating the earth or living things ─ it seems to be just his pleasure. He does add one afterwards, when he decides to create Man: 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." (And later he gives a reason for creating Eve, but it's not the one I was expecting.)

But if you look at it in terms of evolution then it all becomes very clear.

I do not believe that man was created 6000 years ago, or that Adam and Eve were the first man and woman. I believe the story of Adam and Eve is metaphorical. I believe that humans evolved, but we were always a separate species. That is a complicated subject and not one I fully understand but I surmise that God gave man a soul at a certain point during his evolution from the animal species. It is the soul that differentiates man from the animal, so man became man when he got a soul. Plants and animals have a spirit, but not a soul.

I do believe that humans were made in the image of God and we have the potential to reflect the attributes of God, so I believe what it says in Genesis.

The Baha’i Faith scriptures clearly state why God created humans were created although I do not know why animals were created:

3: O SON OF MAN! Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.

4: O SON OF MAN! I loved thy creation, hence I created thee. Wherefore, do thou love Me, that I may name thy name and fill thy soul with the spirit of life.

The Hidden Words of Baha'u'llah

 

[pearl]

I know Catholicism recognizes god's omnipotence, so just where does he fall short here?

Catholicism also recognizes free will.

 

[Trailblazer]

From my way of thinking, animals are given an instinct for survival just like humans. However, we live in a sinful materialistic world which includes pain, suffering and death. Thus, the innocent animals and humans are caught up in the consequences of this world. I think that animals have souls and that they, too, gain admittance to an afterlife. I also think pain and suffering is spiritual like worry and grief and not just physical body pains.

Well stated. I fully agree with all of that although I am none to happy about it.

>>T: Also, as far as we know from scriptures, animals do not have an afterlife. Although it is possible they continue to exist in some form, that was not mentioned in any scriptures that I know of.<<

Where is this in scripture?

It is not in scripture what happens to animals after they die. That was my point.

 

[Trailblazer]

I cant respond to that without breaking several RF rules, so i won't

It would not bother me whatever you say though because I have been down that road before on other forums.

It is good they have these rules here. Whatever you have to say you can say without breaking the rules. You do not have to be disrespectful just because you disagree.

Finally, I do not take responsibility for what God does or doesn't do. I only say what I believe. I do not always like what God does or doesn't do but the world does not revolve around what I like.

I believe it because it makes sense to me even if I do not like it.

 

[Trailblazer]

That is original sin, it is our human nature to choose to be selfish and materialistic.

What I meant is that I do not believe in original sin was caused by Eve eating the apple.

 

[Skwim]

Catholicism also recognizes free will.

Sorry, but non sequiturs aren't going to get you anywhere. I asked you a question and you chose not to answer it, which I can only assume means you can't answer it. Good enough.

.

 

[ChristineM]

It would not bother me whatever you say though because I have been down that road before on other forums.

It is good they have these rules here. Whatever you have to say you can say without breaking the rules. You do not have to be disrespectful just because you disagree.

Finally, I do not take responsibility for what God does or doesn't do. I only say what I believe. I do not always like what God does or doesn't do but the world does not revolve around what I like.

I believe it because it makes sense to me even if I do not like it.

God is in your head if you dont take responsibility then that is refusing to take responsibility for your own actions

 

[james bond]

Well stated. I fully agree with all of that although I am none to happy about it.

It is not in scripture what happens to animals after they die. That was my point.

Animals may have better instincts than humans for survival. For example, what do you notice inadvertently funny gif?

Woman watching demolition misses the whole thing because of her dog

What is in scripture is a new Earth. Saint Mother Theresa thinks she'll be able to care for those on new Earth. Some animals may go there, too. There are animals I don't care for like mosquitoes, flies, cockroaches, starlings, pigeons, crows, i.e. pests.

 

[ChristineM]

Animals may have better instincts than humans for survival. For example, what do you notice inadvertently funny gif?

Woman watching demolition misses the whole thing because of her dog

What is in scripture is a new Earth. Saint Mother Theresa thinks she'll be able to care for those on new Earth. Some animals may go there, too. There are animals I don't care for like mosquitoes, flies, cockroaches, starlings, pigeons, crows, i.e. pests.

Pigeon are useful, they make a lovely pie.