Why does a loving God allow animals to suffer?

[Trailblazer]

God is in your head if you dont take responsibility then that is refusing to take responsibility for your own actions

I take responsibility for my own actions but I do not take responsibility for God's actions because I am not responsible for God's actions.

God is not in my head.

 

[Trailblazer]

Animals may have better instincts than humans for survival. For example, what do you notice inadvertently funny gif?

Woman watching demolition misses the whole thing because of her dog

What is in scripture is a new Earth. Saint Mother Theresa thinks she'll be able to care for those on new Earth. Some animals may go there, too. There are animals I don't care for like mosquitoes, flies, cockroaches, starlings, pigeons, crows, i.e. pests.

I do not know what scripture you are referring to, but I do not believe in a new earth like Christians do. I believe that humans will build the Kingdom of God on earth, and in that way the earth will be transformed. This will take a long time. A New Heaven and a New Earth

“This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.

Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6-7

 

[blü 2]

The hearts of people are changing, one by one, and people are starting to care about each other and the world. Forums like this demonstrate that, they are the microcosm of the macrocosm.

>Here's a summary< of Pinker's book about the decline of violence. It's nice to read something so encouraging.

Animals are innocent in the sense that they live according to their instincts, so whatever they do they do to survive, not for personal gain. Humans do evil acts because they are selfish or greedy. Only humans murder for sex or money for example.

It seems plain to me that humans are simply a particular kind of animal, thriving and dominating because our smarts give us such Darwinian advantages in surviving and breeding.

As for the innocence of animals, here's an article on >psychpathology in apes<: we are not alone or unique.

That is because they have free will and they choose to do evil. Animals do not have free will so they are not culpable for anything. If they kill other animals it is only to survive.

You'll be familiar with herd animals whose males fight each other for breeding domination of the females. Certain kinds of duck copulate in a violent, rape-like manner. Experiments show that chimps are morally aware when eg they take food they know others feel entitled to, In fact, you may be interested to watch this classic >Panorama doco< about Jane Goodall and the murderous chimp Frodo. And here's an article on >psychopathology in apes<.

We're all genus Homo, after all.

I would like to see that Hindu scripture because I believe that there is truth in all divinely revealed scripture.

The principle of physical rebirth / reincarnation is stated in the Bhagavad-Gita Ch 2 v 27: "Of that which is born, death is certain, of that which is dead, birth is certain. Over the unavoidable, therefore, thou oughtest not to grieve."

As for the progress of the soul from insect to animal to human to Nirvana, I found this quasi-summary >here<.

Christians came up with their own version of the afterlife by slapping together OT and NT verses;

The Christian ideas of an afterlife, judgment, heaven and hell (or destruction) are from Greek thought (via the vigorous philosophical and religious interaction of Greeks and Jews in Alexandria from the 2nd cent BCE on). notably Plato and his 'Myth of Er'.


As for your notes on the Baha'i faith, thanks, though as you know my own worldview is materialist. But since its basic values are decency, respect and inclusion, honesty, generosity and enquiry, really we already agree on the important things.

 

[Shaul]

Implicit in your question is that suffering is bad. Yet without pain an animal would not avoid hurtful things. Why do you assume suffering is bad?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Implicit in your question is that suffering is bad. Yet without pain an animal would not avoid hurtful things. Why do you assume suffering is bad?

Some suffering is helpful =/= all suffering is helpful. Not all pain is educational, or makes you stronger in some way. Sometimes it only causes damage.

 

[Trailblazer]

Implicit in your question is that suffering is bad. Yet without pain an animal would not avoid hurtful things. Why do you assume suffering is bad?

I do not assume all suffering is bad but I have issues with undue and excessive suffering and I find it difficult to believe in a benevolent God that created a world where He knew there would be so much suffering.

I know the reasons for suffering according to my religion and I have heard many of the different Christian explanations. What does Judaism teach?

 

[InChrist]

Ii is very sad to me that animals suffer in this world because of the impact of human sin which brought such devastating consequences of death, disease, violence, etc. I have read somewhere that although animals do feel pain, they do not suffer to the extent we do because they live by instinct, but do not have memory as humans do. Suffering often involves memory, especially mental and emotional pain and suffering that humans remember but animals forget. I don't how accurate that is though, as I haven't done research on the subject. When I read the scriptures I see God's care and concern throughout and I am thankful for the promise that the time will come when there will be no more suffering. The scriptures do not specifically say, but I would not be surprised that animals are in eternity since it is obvious to me that God created them in the first place because He enjoys them.

8 Awesome Bible Verses About Loving and Caring For Animals
Do Animals or Pets Go To Heaven? A Biblical Analysis
Does God Care About Animals or Pets?

 

[james bond]

Pigeon are useful, they make a lovely pie.

Ewwww. I don't think I enjoy playing chess against them either.

 

[Shaul]

Some suffering is helpful =/= all suffering is helpful. Not all pain is educational, or makes you stronger in some way. Sometimes it only causes damage.

I can agree with this conceptually but it that begs the question, which suffering is helpful or not and who (or “Who”) decides?

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Suffering of humans can be explained by the fact that we are sinful, we have free will and we cause a lot of our own suffering. Other suffering that we endure is at the hands of other humans. Humans learn lessons and grow spiritually by suffering and we have recompense in an afterlife, so one can still accommodate a loving God that allows suffering...

Animals are all innocent and do not learn lessons or grow spiritually from suffering. Also, as far as we know from scriptures, animals do not have an afterlife. Although it is possible they continue to exist in some form, that was not mentioned in any scriptures that I know of.

If God created animals out of love, why does a loving God allow animals to suffer? I cannot accommodate that in my logical mind or in my heart.

Good and bad define each other, God created an animal that experiences no suffering, fear, hunger, - the Jellyfish... and hence no joy, love, comfort either.

Most mammals clearly experience some joy along with some suffering

And then on a higher level, we are perhaps unique in suffering the mental consequences of our sins, as well as the rewards for our good deeds also, so it is this which sets us apart, good and evil as deeds, personal choices, rather than just physical experiences?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I can agree with this conceptually but it that begs the question, which suffering is helpful or not and who (or “Who”) decides?

Determination of help vs harm is not unreachable, reason is something available to most of us. I certainly wouldn't accept 'so and so authority knows best/works in mysterious ways' as anything but intellectual laziness, imo.

 

[user4578]

It is as written in Haggai 1:9-11; it affected everything under the influence of its master(Genesis 1:28-30).

 

[Trailblazer]

>Here's a summary< of Pinker's book about the decline of violence. It's nice to read something so encouraging.

Thanks for that link. I skimmed through it and saved what is in Wikipedia in a Word doc to read more thoroughly later. What really jumped out at me was as follows:

1. The Long Peace: a term he attributes to the historian John Lewis Gaddis's The Long Peace: Inquiries into the history of the Cold War. This fourth "major transition," Pinker says, "took place after the end of World War II." During it, he says, "the great powers, and the developed states in general, have stopped waging war on one another."[3]
2. The New Peace: Pinker calls this trend "more tenuous," but "since the end of the Cold War in 1989, organized conflicts of all kinds - civil wars, genocides, repression by autocratic governments, and terrorist attacks - have declined throughout the world."[3]
3. The Rights Revolutions: The postwar period has seen, Pinker argues, "a growing revulsion against aggression on smaller scales, including violence against ethnic minorities, women, children, homosexuals, and animals. These spin-offs from the concept of human rights—civil rights, women's rights, children's rights, gay rights, and animal rights—were asserted in a cascade of movements from the late 1950s to the present day."[3]:xxiv–xxv

The Better Angels of Our Nature - Wikipedia

The reason it jumped out at me is because it is confirmation of what I have been saying about how the world is moving in the right direction, towards its ultimate destiny, in spite of what we see that still needs to be addressed. The old world order is crumbling and a New World Order is rising in its stead. These processes are concurrent. Baha’is believe that the reason the Most Great Peace did not come after Baha’u’llah addressed the kings and rulers in the second half of the 19th century is because they rejected His Revelation which had in it what they would need to do to bring a lasting peace. But He wrote that a lesser peace would come nevertheless, and that is the direction we are moving in. The Lesser Peace is akin to the New Peace Pinker described. I believe that eventually we will see the Most Great Peace, but it will take a long time.

It seems plain to me that humans are simply a particular kind of animal, thriving and dominating because our smarts give us such Darwinian advantages in surviving and breeding.

As for the innocence of animals, here's an article on >psychpathology in apes<: we are not alone or unique.

Thanks for the link to the article. Indeed, apes are similar to man in many ways I believe the difference is that we have a rational soul which differentiates us from all the other animals, so it is not only that we have a different kind of brain that gives us an advantage. The soul animates the brain and allows it to do things that no other animal can do.

Animals have emotions just like humans and many animals can have psychological problems; a dog or cat can grieve for example can be depressed or anxious. But my point was that non-human animals do not plan to do harm as some humans do, and they are not inherently selfish, even if they are self-protective and can even be jealous.

You'll be familiar with herd animals whose males fight each other for breeding domination of the females. Certain kinds of duck copulate in a violent, rape-like manner. Experiments show that chimps are morally aware when eg they take food they know others feel entitled to, In fact, you may be interested to watch this classic >Panorama doco< about Jane Goodall and the murderous chimp Frodo. And here's an article on >psychopathology in apes<. We're all genus Homo, after all.

Thanks again for the links. There are certain similarities between humans and non-human animals since we are all animals, but there are also differences. This short chapter describes some of those differences according to my beliefs: 48: THE DIFFERENCE EXISTING BETWEEN MAN AND ANIMAL

The principle of physical rebirth / reincarnation is stated in the Bhagavad-Gita Ch 2 v 27: "Of that which is born, death is certain, of that which is dead, birth is certain. Over the unavoidable, therefore, thou oughtest not to grieve."

As for the progress of the soul from insect to animal to human to Nirvana, I found this quasi-summary >here<.

Thanks. I do not believe in reincarnation (coming back to the earth after we die physically) for animals or humans, and I do not know how those beliefs came into being. I am not sure if they were really taught by Krishna, who Baha’is believe was the Prophet Founder of Hinduism, or if they were misperceived by reading what was revealed. For example, "Of that which is born, death is certain, of that which is dead, birth is certain” does not say that we are reborn into this earth world again. Hinduism is very old to it is hard to say what the Prophet actually taught as opposed to what has been added and changed since.

The Christian ideas of an afterlife, judgment, heaven and hell (or destruction) are from Greek thought (via the vigorous philosophical and religious interaction of Greeks and Jews in Alexandria from the 2nd cent BCE on). notably Plato and his 'Myth of Er'.

Thanks. I did not know that Greek philosophy had any influence on Christian beliefs. I was under the impression that it all stems from the OT and the NT scriptures.

As for your notes on the Baha'i faith, thanks, though as you know my own worldview is materialist. But since its basic values are decency, respect and inclusion, honesty, generosity and enquiry, really we already agree on the important things.

Yes, I know you have a materialist worldview; and what else could you have if you do not believe there is anything beyond the material world? I do not believe it is necessary to believe in God or an afterlife to have good values. I respect nonbelievers for their ethics and morals; especially considering what they do is not for some kind of reward in heaven. Baha’is are admonished not to do what we do for any reward in heaven, but of course we believe there is a reward, so that cannot be fully separated from what we do.

Baha’is believe that all people will not only be rewarded for their belief in God but also for their good deeds; so I tend to think that what will happen to nonbelievers who led moral lives is that they will just be a bit surprised after they die and are not dead, and then they will move on to further realizations. I do not believe there is any eternal punishment for non-belief and there is nothing in the Baha’i Writings that indicate that. All human souls continue to exist and can progress for all of eternity. How exactly that unfolds is a Mystery no mind can fathom, nor do we need to know now. What is most important is how we live in this world and how we treat each other and the animals and the earth we live upon.

I am very happy to have found this forum and see so many people of different beliefs and non-beliefs getting along in a spirit of unity and harmony.

 

[blü 2]

The Better Angels of Our Nature - Wikipedia

I'm pleased you found it interesting.

apes are similar to man in many ways I believe the difference is that we have a rational soul which differentiates us from all the other animals, so it is not only that we have a different kind of brain that gives us an advantage. The soul animates the brain and allows it to do things that no other animal can do.

Of course, in my parlance, the brain generates concepts such as 'the soul' and all our other concepts as well.

THE DIFFERENCE EXISTING BETWEEN MAN AND ANIMAL

As I said, we and the apes share membership of genus Homo. Looking at things from the evolution perspective can be a wonderful clarifier.

And we don't say there was a time when Man was an animal. We say Man is an animal and no objective test you can apply can or will show otherwise.

Thanks. I did not know that Greek philosophy had any influence on Christian beliefs. I was under the impression that it all stems from the OT and the NT scriptures.

Quite a few Christian ideas are from the Greeks. The NT is written in Greek, after all, and Greek was the language of the Eastern part of the Roman empire and so often spoken in Judea. The eucharist is from a Greek ceremony for Demeter (bread) and Dionysos (wine). The instruction to take to the roads, talk with people you meet, and trust in providence for your food and shelter, is straight from Cynic philosophy. On the other hand the Endtimes, the Sacrifice, monotheism (&c), are all from the Jewish side.

Baha’is believe that all people will not only be rewarded for their belief in God but also for their good deeds; so I tend to think that what will happen to nonbelievers who led moral lives is that they will just be a bit surprised after they die and are not dead, and then they will move on to further realizations. I do not believe there is any eternal punishment for non-belief

I appreciate the kind thoughts!

I am very happy to have found this forum and see so many people of different beliefs and non-beliefs getting along in a spirit of unity and harmony.

Stay on your toes. The roughies are still out there ...

 

[Trailblazer]

And we don't say there was a time when Man was an animal. We say Man is an animal and no objective test you can apply can or will show otherwise.

I can agree with that... There is no objective test that can show that man is any more than an animal, since the soul is a mystery no mind can ever hope to unravel, whose nature even the most learned of men have failed to grasp.

 

[blü 2]

I can agree with that... There is no objective test that can show that man is any more than an animal, since the soul is a mystery no mind can ever hope to unravel, whose nature even the most learned of men have failed to grasp.

Or alternatively is a poetic but useful image of the individual as a being capable not only of good but of aspiration and act for the larger good, and answerable to the self for shortcomings.

Or something like that.

 

[james bond]

I do not know what scripture you are referring to, but I do not believe in a new earth like Christians do. I believe that humans will build the Kingdom of God on earth, and in that way the earth will be transformed. This will take a long time. A New Heaven and a New Earth

“This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.

Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6-7

The main point was about the gif. Not to discuss the new Earth. What do you notice?

 

[james bond]

Good and bad define each other, God created an animal that experiences no suffering, fear, hunger, - the Jellyfish... and hence no joy, love, comfort either.

Most mammals clearly experience some joy along with some suffering

And then on a higher level, we are perhaps unique in suffering the mental consequences of our sins, as well as the rewards for our good deeds also, so it is this which sets us apart, good and evil as deeds, personal choices, rather than just physical experiences?

Interesting hypothesis, but don't jellyfish have a nervous system to smell and touch their food?

If the jellyfish experiences joy, then it would be from its mouth (err hole) -- eating, pooing and reproducing.

 

[Trailblazer]

Or alternatively is a poetic but useful image of the individual as a being capable not only of good but of aspiration and act for the larger good, and answerable to the self for shortcomings.

Or something like that.

That's true too...

 

[Trailblazer]

The main point was about the gif. Not to discuss the new Earth. What do you notice?

Sorry I missed that... I just looked at it, it was funny. I got the point. Animals often see things we do not see.