Why does a loving God allow animals to suffer?

[ThePainefulTruth]

Now you sound like a theist, but I understand what you mean since I am one...I was speaking from the heart, not from my rational mind.

I'm a deist, which is technically a deist. And the difference between deism and atheism is hope.

If as I believe there is another life after this, this life is a blink compared to our total existence, but it is not a blink in the sense that some people and animals suffer a lot longer than it takes to blink.

Yeah, from an agnostic pre-blink perspective, yeah, pain sucks. But even in this life, after we've passed an episode of suffering, the memory of pain, and grief, diminishes. Now add the overlay of an infinite post-blink perspective, and...well, you see what I mean, maybe.

 

[ChristineM]

I take responsibility for my own actions but I do not take responsibility for God's actions because I am not responsible for God's actions.

God is not in my head.

But cannot be seen or heard or proven except in an individuals mind

So when god tells someone to do something against humanity, they are not responsible. But if they do it without a god voice in their head they are responsible. Ok. Got the now.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm a deist, which is technically a deist. And the difference between deism and atheism is hope.

Hope is good and so is deism. Being a theist who believes in Messengers of God is oh, so much more work, as you would see if you traversed some of the other threads I am on. I was so refreshing to see you on the notification!

Yeah, from an agnostic pre-blink perspective, yeah, pain sucks. But even in this life, after we've passed an episode of suffering, the memory of pain, and grief, diminishes. Now add the overlay of an infinite post-blink perspective, and...well, you see what I mean, maybe.

I am not sure what you mean, but I have been in this chair for over 12 hours so my thinking is starting to cease, as is my vision.

 

[Trailblazer]

But cannot be seen or heard or proven except in an individuals mind

So when god tells someone to do something against humanity, they are not responsible. But if they do it without a god voice in their head they are responsible. Ok. Got the now.

I am not sure what you mean but God does not speak to anyone except His chosen Messengers, although some people imagine God speaks to them...

All people are responsible for their actions whether they believe in God or not.

 

[ChristineM]

I am not sure what you mean but God does not speak to anyone except His chosen Messengers, although some people imagine God speaks to them...

All people are responsible for their actions whether they believe in God or not.

Your faith is just that, faith.

And yes, all people are responsible for their own actions, even those who say god told me.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

I am not sure what you mean, but I have been in this chair for over 12 hours so my thinking is starting to cease, as is my vision.

It's just a more elaborate way of saying that time heals all wounds as they are withdrawn into insignificance.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

But cannot be seen or heard or proven except in an individuals mind

So when god tells someone to do something against humanity, they are not responsible. But if they do it without a god voice in their head they are responsible. Ok. Got the now.

Andrea Yates killed her 5 children because she believed if she killed them while they were still under the "age of accountability," they would join God in Heaven. Her case was an apparent lethal mix of insanity and religious indoctrination, similar to the irrational beliefs and indoctrination used by revealed religions.

 

[ChristineM]

Andrea Yates killed her 5 children because she believed if she killed them while they were still under the "age of accountability," they would join God in Heaven. Her case was an apparent lethal mix of insanity and religious indoctrination, similar to the irrational beliefs and indoctrination used by revealed religions.

Sad, frightening, not unexpected

 

[robocop (actually)]

Suffering of humans can be explained by the fact that we are sinful, we have free will and we cause a lot of our own suffering. Other suffering that we endure is at the hands of other humans. Humans learn lessons and grow spiritually by suffering and we have recompense in an afterlife, so one can still accommodate a loving God that allows suffering...

Animals are all innocent and do not learn lessons or grow spiritually from suffering. Also, as far as we know from scriptures, animals do not have an afterlife. Although it is possible they continue to exist in some form, that was not mentioned in any scriptures that I know of.

If God created animals out of love, why does a loving God allow animals to suffer? I cannot accommodate that in my logical mind or in my heart.

You should know, the Qu'Ran says "If you are kind to animals, Allah forgives you."

 

[Trailblazer]

It's just a more elaborate way of saying that time heals all wounds as they are withdrawn into insignificance.

Okay, thanks.
I do not think time heals all wounds if we take what people say at face value. Some people say they never recover from the death of a loved one for example...

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I really do not know everything about animals as I told someone else a while ago.
Science has a lot yet to discover...

Okay, well here's my take on it.

Animals certainly do learn, even from suffering. The lessons might not always be good, but they learn - we see this with abused pets all the time. We also see it from disciplined pets, where the lesson learned is good. Not only this but many animals are quite intelligent, and able to learn wondrous things. Beyond the obvious of apes and dolphins, crows and ravens have been observed using tools, deductive reasoning, discrimination of differences (I've seen a video of a crow plucking a can from the garbage and putting it in a recycling bin), and even allowing themselves to have fun, rolling down the snow-hill of a car's windshield over and over.

There are also many beliefs that tell of animals persisting beyond this life in spirit. Told not from a sense of wishful thinking for long-gone pets, but through human spiritual encounters with such spirits. I attest to such encounters, though it likely won't be taken as much here. It seems to me to be very short-sighted to declare that animals - who can be observed as intelligent and having a spirit through their higher form of life - don't experience an afterlife; that such life is just snuffed out when they expire. Energy is never lost, and if all spirits are is energy, then it stands to reason that it goes somewhere.

 

[Trailblazer]

There are also many beliefs that tell of animals persisting beyond this life in spirit. Told not from a sense of wishful thinking for long-gone pets, but through human spiritual encounters with such spirits. I attest to such encounters, though it likely won't be taken as much here.

It will be taken as much by me. I know of others who have had these spiritual encounters with animals and I used to use animal communicators to communicate with my cats after they passed on. Some things they came across with only the cat could have known. The communicator did not know anything about that cat since I never told her.

It seems to me to be very short-sighted to declare that animals - who can be observed as intelligent and having a spirit through their higher form of life - don't experience an afterlife; that such life is just snuffed out when they expire. Energy is never lost, and if all spirits are is energy, then it stands to reason that it goes somewhere.

That energy is never lost is something my naturopathic physician once told me when I was grieving over a cat. Some religious people go only by their scriptures, or what they think they mean, or because scriptures do not say specifically that animals have an afterlife many religious people don't believe they have one. Some people are just narrow-minded.

Thanks for your input.

 

[corynski]

Suffering of humans can be explained by the fact that we are sinful, we have free will and we cause a lot of our own suffering. Other suffering that we endure is at the hands of other humans. Humans learn lessons and grow spiritually by suffering and we have recompense in an afterlife, so one can still accommodate a loving God that allows suffering...

Animals are all innocent and do not learn lessons or grow spiritually from suffering. Also, as far as we know from scriptures, animals do not have an afterlife. Although it is possible they continue to exist in some form, that was not mentioned in any scriptures that I know of.

If God created animals out of love, why does a loving God allow animals to suffer? I cannot accommodate that in my logical mind or in my heart.

Well then, why would any god or goddess create a world where every living creature has to eat another living creature just to stay alive? Tell me what 'God' eats if you've gotten that far in your delusions....
Humans create gods....... gods don't create humans.........

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Well then, why would any god or goddess create a world where every living creature has to eat another living creature just to stay alive? Tell me what 'God' eats if you've gotten that far in your delusions....
Humans create gods....... gods don't create humans.........

"Bad things happen, so god doesn't exist" is one of the poorer arguments against gods.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well then, why would any god or goddess create a world where every living creature has to eat another living creature just to stay alive? Tell me what 'God' eats if you've gotten that far in your delusions....
Humans create gods....... gods don't create humans.........

Don’t ask me, I am not God. And just because I believe something does not mean I am happy about it. However, I try not to live according to my feelings but instead I use my higher rational faculty.

If God is omniscient, God knows how to create and run a universe and if God is omnipotent God has all power to do whatever He wants to do. Since I am not omniscient I cannot know as much or more than God and since I am not omnipotent I cannot have as much or more power than God…

So where does that leave me?

I have a few choices:

1) Believe in God and acquiesce to what God has ordained, or
2) Believe in God and be angry at Him, or
3) Be an atheist

I did #2 for a number of years and now I am trying to do #1. It is a lot easier.

 

[Chris Lovel]

Suffering of humans can be explained by the fact that we are sinful, we have free will and we cause a lot of our own suffering. Other suffering that we endure is at the hands of other humans. Humans learn lessons and grow spiritually by suffering and we have recompense in an afterlife, so one can still accommodate a loving God that allows suffering...

Animals are all innocent and do not learn lessons or grow spiritually from suffering. Also, as far as we know from scriptures, animals do not have an afterlife. Although it is possible they continue to exist in some form, that was not mentioned in any scriptures that I know of.

If God created animals out of love, why does a loving God allow animals to suffer? I cannot accommodate that in my logical mind or in my heart.

I am incredulous at the way Christians have this naive concept that their God is supposed to prevent all bad things happening. Why does God do this, why doesn't God do the other. It is clear you have no real concept of the nature of the Divine. There is so much new information available from many sources. All you have to do is search. If you do not look you will most assuredly not find. You will find all life has a form of soul aka a conscious energy field surrounding them. Although it may seem the animal is suffering it is a physiological response. Many times the field has left and the animal feels nothing. Yes, pets have been seen in heaven by those visiting during a Near Death Experience. I can never understand why people keep quoting the Bible, it is obviously not a reliable source of information, for example the are over 400 conflicting passages, they can't all be true, what one do you believe and how do you know?. I assume you have never considered another conundrum, throughout the Bible's most of the description of events and speeches were written many years after the fact. There was nobody present at any time to make any record of what was said or done. This means the Bible is basically all here-say, not allowed as evidence because it is not a reliable source of information. So how do you justify your dogmatic adherence to an ancient book of myths?

 

[Chris Lovel]

Don’t ask me, I am not God. And just because I believe something does not mean I am happy about it. However, I try not to live according to my feelings but instead I use my higher rational faculty.

If God is omniscient, God knows how to create and run a universe and if God is omnipotent God has all power to do whatever He wants to do. Since I am not omniscient I cannot know as much or more than God and since I am not omnipotent I cannot have as much or more power than God…

So where does that leave me?

I have a few choices:

1) Believe in God and acquiesce to what God has ordained, or
2) Believe in God and be angry at Him, or
3) Be an atheist

I did #2 for a number of years and now I am trying to do #1. It is a lot easier.

I often wonder why people refer to God and "him", that is a male title. I very much doubt any God would be male or female, that is reserved for the animal world. It may be because Christians have been conditioned to view God as a father figure because 2000 years ago men were the big bosses as they are today in most Christian families. So man has made God like a human even given it human attributes like, anger, jealousy, revenge, murder, violence, cruelty, sound familiar? There is much information out there about the true nature of the Divine all you have to do is search. If you do not look you most assuredly will not find.

 

[Trailblazer]

I am incredulous at the way Christians have this naive concept that their God is supposed to prevent all bad things happening. Why does God do this, why doesn't God do the other.

I am not a Christian and I do not believe that God should prevent all bad things from happening.

It is clear you have no real concept of the nature of the Divine. There is so much new information available from many sources. All you have to do is search. If you do not look you will most assuredly not find.

I am a Baha’i so I already have the most current revelation from God. As such, I know as much as God has revealed to date, God’s Attributes and God’s Will for this age in history, but I know nothing about God’s Essence. God’s Essence is, and has ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived.God does not reveal His Essence to anyone.

You will find all life has a form of soul aka a conscious energy field surrounding them. Although it may seem the animal is suffering it is a physiological response. Many times the field has left and the animal feels nothing. Yes, pets have been seen in heaven by those visiting during a Near Death Experience. I can never understand why people keep quoting the Bible, it is obviously not a reliable source of information, for example the are over 400 conflicting passages, they can't all be true, what one do you believe and how do you know?. I assume you have never considered another conundrum, throughout the Bible's most of the description of events and speeches were written many years after the fact. There was nobody present at any time to make any record of what was said or done. This means the Bible is basically all here-say, not allowed as evidence because it is not a reliable source of information. So how do you justify your dogmatic adherence to an ancient book of myths?

You are preaching to the choir. I certainly do not rely upon the Bible as a “reliable source” of information about the soul or the afterlife of humans or animals. Talk about conflicting! No, I do not need to rely upon the Bible because I have updated information from the Revelation of Baha’u’llah and it is not conflicting information. However, religion is not science so it does not address energy fields and such. We believe that science has its own purview and science is just as necessary as religion for the advancement of humanity. The Baha’i Writings say that the afterlife is a mystery that we are not meant to know about in this life. A few things were revealed, but not all the details. NDEs fill in some of the gaps and they concur with what we do know from our Writings.

When I was talking about animal suffering, I meant animals suffering in this world. Animals do suffer, physical pain and emotional pain. I often wonder why God allows that although I realize it is simply part of the physical creation. So it is an emotional reaction on my part, not rational.

I guess you mean that after an animal dies and the energy field leaves, it feels no pain. The same would apply to humans. I understand that because of my beliefs about the soul. Once a person dies it leaves the body and takes its flight to the spiritual world. I cannot say if the same thing happens to animals, and just because pets have been seen in heaven by those visiting during a NDE that is not ample evidence that animals survive death. For one thing, a NDE is called that for a reason, because the person had not fully died. They caught a glimpse of the spiritual realm but that does not mean that is what their eternal destination will look like.

I kind of like this subject and there are two books I like that I think might be accurate depictions of the spiritual world once someone has fully died. You might find these interesting.

The Afterlife Revealed
Private Dowding

 

[Trailblazer]

I often wonder why people refer to God and "him" that is a male title. I very much doubt any God would be male or female, that is reserved for the animal world. It may be because Christians have been conditioned to view God as a father figure because 2000 years ago men were the big bosses as they are today in most Christian families. So man has made God like a human even given it human attributes like, anger, jealousy, revenge, murder, violence, cruelty, sound familiar?

I guess the reason God is referred to as a HE is because of the Bible. Christians have made God in their own image and they actually believe the things the Bible says are things that God did. I am not going to even pretend to know anything about all of that, because I was never a Christian and I have only read certain chapters and verse of the Bible.

Below is a brief encapsulation of what Baha’is believe about God:

The Bahá'í view of God is essentially monotheistic. God is the imperishable, uncreated being who is the source of all existence.[1] He is described as "a personal God, unknowable, inaccessible, the source of all Revelation, eternal, omniscient, omnipresent and almighty".[2][3] Though transcendent and inaccessible directly, his image is reflected in his creation. The purpose of creation is for the created to have the capacity to know and love its creator.[4] God communicates his will and purpose to humanity through intermediaries, known as Manifestations of God, who are the prophets and messengers that have founded religions from prehistoric times up to the present day.[5]

While the Bahá'í writings teach of a personal god who is a being with a personality (including the capacity to reason and to feel love), they clearly state that this does not imply a human or physical form.[2]Shoghi Effendi writes:

What is meant by personal God is a God Who is conscious of His creation, Who has a Mind, a Will, a Purpose, and not, as many scientists and materialists believe, an unconscious and determined force operating in the universe. Such conception of the Divine Being, as the Supreme and ever present Reality in the world, is not anthropomorphic, for it transcends all human limitations and forms, and does by no means attempt to define the essence of Divinity which is obviously beyond any human comprehension. To say that God is a personal Reality does not mean that He has a physical form, or does in any way resemble a human being. To entertain such belief would be sheer blasphemy.[15][16]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God in the Bahá'í Faith

There is much information out there about the true nature of the Divine all you have to do is search. If you do not look you most assuredly will not find.

Where do you think that information is to be found?

 

[Cynthia Bloom]

God allows what man allows, it is humans that allow animals to suffer. If your thinking of wild animals, they kill to eat, not for sport or money.

Not a Biblical answer. If God knew humans would torture animals why make them? Why make animals eat each other, why not make them all vegetarians? How can God stand to see what happens to innocent animals? Nobody, even theologians have an answer to this question.