Why does God care about Homosexuality?

[Luke_17:2]

I was a Christian 45 years, and that was 45 years too long. And if you'd read the Bible as many times as I have, you'd probably be able to spell better by now.

Hate to break it to you; but once saved, always saved, brother.

And please don't comment on my typos.

So, how many times have you been married, Christian?

I've been unfasionably married to my first and only wife for 22 years.

 

[Autodidact]

Divorce is allowed, regardless of the reasons.

That's true, it's the remarriage that's theproblem.

The Bible simply advises you not to get remarried, but also says that if you do, you haven't sinned.

Mark 10
11 He answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her.
12 And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."

Matthew 5
31 "It has been said, `Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.'
32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery. Matthew 19
3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?"
4 "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator `made them male and female,'
5 and said, `For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'?
6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."
7 "Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?"
8 Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.
9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Luke 16
18 "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery. 1 Corinthians 7
10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband.
11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.
12 To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her.
13 And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him.

 

[Autodidact]

says you haven't sinned if you remarry.

Look it up. I've been a Christian for 50 friggin' years, atheist. Don't get into a debate with me on the subject of what the Bible says about ANYTHING

I Corinthians 7:27
Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be released. Are you released from a wife? Do not seek a wife.

???

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

so going back to " theme", when I read the bible, after i take everything in, I don't think back then , the church ( the body of christ) was ok with bending a man over and sodomizing him. I think it is sexual impurity. I think it has been that way since the old testament for thousands of years.

You make homosexuality sound like rape.

Personally, I think the Church back then (or the community of believers who would become the Church, depending on your point of view) recognized love as something that transcended all, and that the core message of the New Testament that differentiates it from the Old is the message that love is the Law. Using the Law to try to destroy one form of love is self-contradictory.

I would have been a whole lot easier if Jesus would have said something on the topic, but he did not address it, like alot of others.

It would have been clearer, yes. Easier? That depends.

 

[Autodidact]

Reverand Rick;

They're trying to make us look hypocritical, but they aren't able because I'm willing to bet we both know the Bible a lil' better then they.

Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
Better it is to be of an humble spirit with the lowly, than to divide the spoil with the proud.
-- Proverbs 16: 18-19

 

[Autodidact]

Did it occur to anyone that the Lord might have made homosexuals to test the love and obedience of straight Christians by seeing how they react to them and how they treat them?

Perhaps it is not about homosexuals at all. It just may be about the Christians who condemn them.

Are Christians suppose to condemn? For one to condemn would mean they would have passed judgement. We are not to judge one another, that is our Lord's job not ours.

Homosexuality is a test on humanity. How you treat those you disagree with or abhor is the true test of the caliber of person you are.

Or maybe--I know this is a radical idea--Jesus really did want us to love one another.

 

[Autodidact]

Luke, that is the game they play here at RF. They try and portray us as bigots, homophobes and white supremists so they can disregard what we say.

Good thing there really aren't any hypocritical, gay, anti-homosexual Christians then.

 

[sandandfoam]

I've been watching this debate and all the biblical references and I have a question. Why do those who believe that same sex relations are wrong in Gods eyes care what those who hold a different point of view do?
Further if someone interprets the bible as thinking gay sex is the best thing since sliced bread provided they're not forcing their opinion on another, so what?

 

[Autodidact]

I Corinthians 7:27 says you haven't sinned if you remarry.

Look it up. I've been a Christian for 50 friggin' years, atheist. Don't get into a debate with me on the subject of what the Bible says about ANYTHING

25Now about virgins: I have no command from the Lord, but I give a judgment as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy. 26Because of the present crisis, I think that it is good for you to remain as you are. 27Are you married? Do not seek a divorce. Are you unmarried? Do not look for a wife. 28But if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this.
29What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; 30those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; 31those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away.



This is a letter from Paul to the Corinthians regarding the current situation of Christians, as he saw it. He advises against marriage in general, but admits it's better than fornication. I don't think you can take it as overruling Jesus' clear and repeated prohibition. To reconcile the two passages (unless you want to say they're contradictory) I think you have to say that Paul is saying that marriage is not a sin, but Jesus makes it clear that remarriage after divorce is.

 

[Luke_17:2]

I've been watching this debate and all the biblical references and I have a question. Why do those who believe that same sex relations are wrong in Gods eyes care what those who hold a different point of view do?
Further if someone interprets the bible as thinking gay sex is the best thing since sliced bread provided they're not forcing their opinion on another, so what?

All I know is that the Bible condemns it.

I wouldn't force it on any. It's an abomination in God's eyes, and won't practice it.

But if others want to practice it, more power to them.

Just to it where I can't see it... -and do it quietly!

But I'm dead-set against gay marriage. My position on that is on another thread.

 

[Autodidact]

The relevance and hypocrisy is: Any divorced and remarried Christian who condemns homosexuality is an unrepentant sinner and hypocrite, like Newt Gingrich. They should be looking after those logs in their own eyes.

 

[Luke_17:2]

Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
Better it is to be of an humble spirit with the lowly, than to divide the spoil with the proud.
-- Proverbs 16: 18-19

Who said anything about pride?

I'm stating a fact!

 

[Smoke]

Hate to break it to you; but once saved, always saved, brother.

See you in heaven, then!

I've been unfasionably married to my first and only wife for 22 years.

I'm impressed. Seriously.

 

[Luke_17:2]

The relevance and hypocrisy is: Any divorced and remarried Christian who condemns homosexuality is an unrepentant sinner and hypocrite,

The terms "unrepentant sinner" and "Christian" are pretty much opposite.

A Christian has confessed his/her sins, acknowledged that he/she deserves to go to hell, and has asked for forgiveness. In other words: is a repentant sinner.

You are an unrepentant sinner, autodidact.

 

[Smoke]

Good thing there really aren't any hypocritical, gay, anti-homosexual Christians then.

Or any hypocritical, straight, anti-homosexual Christians, either. You know, the kind who take a few verses about homosexuality and blow it up into a whole political agenda, but never bother to apply the teachings of Jesus to themselves somehow.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I won't comment on other translations.

Why not? Is the KJV somehow more authoritative than others?

Isn't the original Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic text of the Bible that matters? If another version might be truer to the original, why not consider it?

As rocka said, Jesus was addressing, imo, the fact that many marry without thinking, get divorced, remarried, divorced, remarried, etc. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's my interpretation due to what I Cor. says.

But there are so many passages that flat-out say "don't divorce", "don't divorce", "don't divorce... except for adultery", etc... divorce gets much more negative attention in the New Testament than homosexuality does. Why the disparate treatment of the two issues?

And if you can apply 1 Cor 28 to opposite-sex divorce and remarriage, why can't you apply it to same-sex marriage? If, like it seems you're saying, the intent of the verse it to declare that if you marry, you are not sinning, why not apply it universally?

No I don't. Unless you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, you won't be saved (Romans 10:9).

Even beyond that, not every one who says "Lord, Lord" will gain eternal life, right? Aren't there some people who profess to be Christians and go through all the motions who Christ will say He never knew?

True. What I'm saying is that if you're an atheist, or not a Christian, you have no reason to disagree with what the Bible says as doctrine, etc. because it doesn't effect you. That is to say, you can disagree, but not for doctrinal reasons because it's not even your religion.

If Christians didn't have a voice in public policy, I might agree with you.

If I didn't think that doctrine mattered, I wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place: condemnation of homosexuality would be inexcusable. This is going to sound odd, but the only reason I'm willing to consider reasoned debate on the issue is because of the value that I place on religion, even ones I don't personally believe in. However, I recognize the difference between a person trying to adhere as best they can to the tenets of their faith, and one who uses their religious scriptures as a smokescreen for prejudice. The former is understandable; the latter is not, and neither is choosing prejudice when the tenets of your faith allow a range of more reasonable options.

In my mind, condemnation of homosexuality is only understandable (albeit distastefully so) if the person doing the condemning truly believes that it is the Will of God, and feels that God has given him no other options. Doctrine is central to this. If we ignore doctrine, then the person who condemns homosexuality out of religious belief is just as guilty as the one who does it out of plain old homophobia.

 

[Luke_17:2]

MidnightBlue;

Look at it this way, you're covered either way!

II Timothy 2:13

 

[Autodidact]

The terms "unrepentant sinner" and "Christian" are pretty much opposite.

A Christian has confessed his/her sins, acknowledged that he/she deserves to go to hell, and has asked for forgiveness. In other words: is a repentant sinner.

You are an unrepentant sinner, autodidact.

If they were truly repentant, wouldn't they stop sinning?
And I'll thank you not to force your morality on me. In turn, I will not force mine on you.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Keep fooling yourself.

When you've been a Christian for 50 years, and read the Bible through as many times, I'll give you the time of day.

That could be classified as more an ageist remark than a Christian one.

From the moment we are borne our souls are the equal of any other.
From the moment we are baptised we are acknowledged as saved.

I was christened nearly 73 years ago and have been Christian ever since.
I have never considered my self more Christian or more learned or more deserving of respect than a person of any age.

The more Christian in our attitude we become, the more the servants of others we become.
A Christian has no need to Judge others... Christ spent his ministry forgiving others, and loving others. he did not restrict this to Jews like himself... he loved and forgave the sins of all men alike.
To be a Christian it is necessary to follow Christ's example Of love.
It is not what we believe or how well we follow church or Biblical rules that matters;
it is how we act towards and respect others.

 

[McBell]

Divorce is allowed, regardless of the reasons. The Bible simply advises you not to get remarried, but also says that if you do, you haven't sinned.

And here we see that being a Christian for over 50 years and reading the Bible umpteen times, both of which are appeal to numbers fallacies, does not equate knowing what one is talking about.

Though I will give credit where credit is due.
50+ years in a box, has made you a master of that box.

I don't get that from the Bible.
Matthew 5:31-32 (NIV):
Matthew 19:3-6 (NIV):
1 Corinthians 7:10-14 (NIV):
To sum up:
- divorce is forbidden in all cases except for marital infidelity. (Mat 5)
- not all divorces are permitted (implied); what is joined together by God should not be separated by man. (Mat 19)
- women must not be separate from their husbands; husbands must not divorce their wives. Believers married to unbelievers should stay married if at all possible. (1 Cor 7)
In light of these passages, what support do you have for your idea that divorce is allowed, regardless of reason?

The really neat thing about the Bible is how it pretty much says whatever the one using it wants.
As I am sure we will see when Luke uses his self proclaimed vastly superior knowledge on the subject to show you are wrong.

He was going to use verses, wasn't he?

OK, what does divorce have to do with the topic?

I have no idea.

I Corinthians 7:27 says you haven't sinned if you remarry.
Look it up. I've been a Christian for 50 friggin' years, atheist. Don't get into a debate with me on the subject of what the Bible says about ANYTHING

Please.
Your appeal to numbers tactic has made you prideful and arrogant.
Two qualities that God must truly love, if what you say is true.

Convenient you leave out verse 25:

Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.
​

Seems you are rather the master of pick and choose Bible technique.
With over fifty years of practice, you should be.

Reverand Rick;
They're trying to make us look hypocritical, but they aren't able because I'm willing to bet we both know the Bible a lil' better then they.

Again with the arrogant pride, I see.
Perhaps if you were to see something outside your box.
But then, that may well destroy your whole world.
Nope, better to remain safely hidden behind your self proclaimed vastly superior knowledge of the Bible and Christianity.

You present your opinion and back it up with nothing but: "I've been a Christian for 50 friggin' years, atheist"

Did it occur to anyone that the Lord might have made homosexuals to test the love and obedience of straight Christians by seeing how they react to them and how they treat them?

Eze 33:11

Perhaps it is not about homosexuals at all. It just may be about the Christians who condemn them.

Good point.
However, how will you ever get the likes of Luke, who cannot see past his own prideful arrogance, to ever even contemplate it?

Are Christians suppose to condemn? For one to condemn would mean they would have passed judgement. We are not to judge one another, that is our Lord's job not ours.

I do not understand where this "Christians are not to judge" theory comes from.
The Bible is plum full of directions of how to judge others.

Homosexuality is a test on humanity. How you treat those you disagree with or abhor is the true test of the caliber of person you are.

I disagree.
why?
Eze 33:11

Luke, that is the game they play here at RF. They try and portray us as bigots, homophobes and white supremists so they can disregard what we say.

Nice try.
But playing the martyr won't work, even if you have someone who is more than willing to pat your back the whole time you are doing it.

They can't out debate us, so they attack our character.

One cannot be out debated when the refuse to debate in the first place.
Neither of you have been debating the topic at hand.
You (meaning you and Luke) have spent most your time thus far merely attacking the credibility of others, poisoning the well, bragging about your own alleged credentials (which is nothing but an appeal to numbers fallacy), and patting each other on the back for playing the martyr.
{sarcasm}
How does anyone have a chance at debating with the above mentioned skills you have so successfully demonstrated?!
{/sarcasm}

don't lock horns with me over what the Bible says.

No doubt.
For you do just a fine job showing how well you Calvinise the Bible without any help from others.

People who tell me don't worry, worry me.
People who tell me to trust them, causes me to be distrustful.
People who claim to know everything rarely do.
People who swear they are telling the truth, have doubts themselves.

Wow.
Luke must really scare you then.
But then, do not Christians claim to have not only have the ultimate truth, but also that no one who is not already a believer can understand this ultimate truth?
Where does that leave you and all the other Christians?
Or is your ultimate truth exempt from your statement?

Keep fooling yourself.
When you've been a Christian for 50 years, and read the Bible through as many times, I'll give you the time of day.

Actually, it is you who is master of the self foolery.
And your denial of this statement only confirms it.