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Why does Hamas launch rockets from cities?

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
We basically don't bomb anybody in Canada, at least until Afghanistan. When we last had a domestic indigenous uprising we jailed the activists and hung their leader.
Sounds like what many "progressives" would like to do with the Conservatives and Harper. :)
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
You have not seen the nationalists in Israel chanting death to all Arabs, or heard prominent government officials in Israel promoting driving all the Arabs out and Jews taking over the whole region?

My understanding of this phenomenon is that it represents a vanishingly small percentage of Israel's population. It's no where near a moral equivalency compared to Hamas's charter and its winning a popular election. In other words, you're bringing up outliers in Israel and attempting to compare them to the majority of Palestinians.

I have never heard a credible claim that Israel has designs on "the whole region". Can you define "the whole region"? If you mean the WB, say the WB.

The trick is not to feed the histrionics, IMO. I am aware of the genocidal undertones on both sides of the conflict, but I choose to believe that even racists are capable of diplomacy and rational self interest, and even racists prefer not to have their own children on the receiving end of bombs.

I have never heard of genocidal undertones from Israel. Again, don't bother me with a few outliers. If you have evidence of a substantial number of Israelis harboring genocidal wishes for any Arab group, please share your sources.

Alceste, do you consider yourself to be a moral relativist?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
From The Times of Israel:
20:17 Hamas ‘continuing struggle’ after it rejects Egyptian truce deal

Simultaneous to an announcement by a Hamas spokesperson on Facebook that the terror group rejects the Egyptian ceasefire proposal, and that Israel must either accede to its demands or face a war of attrition, Hamas’s armed wing tweets “We are continuing our struggle.”

“ALLAH IS OUR GOAL, THE PROPHET IS OUR LEADER, JIHAD IS OUR WAY, AND DEATH FOR ALLAH IS OUR MOST EXALTED WISH,” the Al-Qassam Brigades tweets in all capitals.
And so it continues ...
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
And from Haaretz:
Pro-peace rally held in Tel Aviv amid Gaza truce talks

Right-wing activists plan counter-demonstration; police forces deployed in city.​

Thousands of demonstrators gathered Saturday evening for a pro-peace rally in Tel Aviv under the slogan, “Changing direction: toward peace, away from war.”

The rally at Rabin Square comes two days after another demonstration expressing solidarity with residents of communities along the Gaza border.

Right-wing activists planned a counter-demonstration, which will be held nearby at the same time. The Israel Police is planning to keep the two camps apart.

At the main rally, which began at 8 P.M., speeches were slated to be made by author David Grossman, journalist Zuheir Bahloul, Meretz chairwoman Zahava Gal-On, Hadash chairman Mohammed Barakeh, a resident of Sderot, a representative of bereaved families and other left-wing activists.

The rally will also host performances by Achinoam Nini, Mira Awad, Yair Dalal and Adam Gorlitsky.

The rally was originally due to take place last week, but was postponed at the request of the police and the Home Front Command, which prohibited gatherings of more than1,000 people at the time in the Tel Aviv area.

The event's Facebook page states that, “following a painful month of war and death, in view of waves of incitement and hatred that are tearing apart Israeli society, we call for a demonstration for peace and democracy. The next round (of violence) can be avoided. We don’t have to sink into an abyss of ever-crueler wars, of extreme hatred and a destruction of our neighbors and ourselves.

"Only an agreement will ensure long-term security and quiet for residents of the south and of the entire country. There is another way – immediate dialogue with Palestinians to ensure a fair peace, the opening of Gaza and a determined stand of Arabs and Jews against racism and for life. Only a two-state political solution will guarantee independence, justice, security and hope for all people living in this land.”

Speaking at the demonstration, Meretz chairperson Zahava Gal-On lashed out at Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, saying, he has failed miserably, not as a result of this operation, but of refusing for five years to take the diplomatic path to peace.

Gal-On accused the prime minister of a "diplomatic freeze: refusing to adopt the Arab Peace Initiative; the so-called blowup of the talks with (Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas) Abu Mazen after 9 months, the breakdown of U.S.-Israel relations, the refusal to recognize the Palestinian unity government, and the widely authorized building in the settlements, which destroyed any chances of a peace agreement with the Palestinians.”

She continued, “You could have achieved the framework you’re willing to accept now without paying the price of 64 dead soldiers and civilians, the death of 2,000 Palestinians, and the horrible destruction in Gaza, including almost half a million people uprooted from their homes.”

During his speech, author David Grossman, said “Neither side in this war has a victory picture. There are only indescribable images of death and destruction. Every image depicts defeat for both peoples.

"There is no military solution for the conflict between Israel and Hamas. There is no military solution that will end the suffering of Israelis in the south and the inhumane suffering of people in Gaza. People in Israel won’t be able to breathe freely either, until the stranglehold on Gaza is lifted."

Many streets in the area were closed during the rally.
Emphasis added.
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
Hey Jay , so the rally is could freely speak, individual is could not (american jew boy beating) !!!!

btw is not Most of the Israelis (jew Israelis) agree on bombing the civilians in Gaza ? so good luck for rally :)
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
I think it was really ironic how the anti-Israel people in Israel staged a rally in Tel-Aviv, and they had to run for cover when there was a missile attack siren. :clap
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
I ask every country to respect the sanctity of human life and international law. I don't think the situation in the occupied territories has any parallels in recent history, so I disagree with your opinion that Israel is being held to an exceptional standard.

There are perhaps some similarities with Northern Ireland and South Africa. I don't think you'll find that progressives went easy on either country. On the contrary, international pressure eventually led them to abandon racist policies that caused conflict and allow the oppressed majority in each reason to live with dignity and autonomy.
It is absolutely held to an utterly rediculous standard.

Israel defends itself because of rocket attacks into it's populations and it gets condemned.

Yet Hamas doesn't get condemned for shooting missiles into Israel's populated cities.

Hamas doesn't get condemned for using it's own people as human shields.

Hamas doesn't get condemned for intimidating journalists

ISIS doesn't get condemened for murdering chrisitans

Syria doesn't get condemed for killing it's own people

And so on and so on.

Also Israel isn't occupying.

They completely pulled out of Gaza.

As far as the west bank the jordanian who are living in Israel's west bank would probably have had their own state if they didn't continously make it clear that there goal is to destroy all of Israel.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
My understanding of this phenomenon is that it represents a vanishingly small percentage of Israel's population. It's no where near a moral equivalency compared to Hamas's charter and its winning a popular election. In other words, you're bringing up outliers in Israel and attempting to compare them to the majority of Palestinians.

I have never heard a credible claim that Israel has designs on "the whole region". Can you define "the whole region"? If you mean the WB, say the WB.



I have never heard of genocidal undertones from Israel. Again, don't bother me with a few outliers. If you have evidence of a substantial number of Israelis harboring genocidal wishes for any Arab group, please share your sources.

Alceste, do you consider yourself to be a moral relativist?

The report I saw on the subject didn't make it sound like a fringe group. Peace activists have been attacked and lost their jobs, and at least one official at a high level of government has advocated the forceful displacement or slaughter of everyone in Gaza so that Israel can fill the ruins with Jewish people and annex the region.

I consider myself a pragmatist. You can't fight terrorism by creating the perfect conditions for recruitment.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
The report I saw on the subject didn't make it sound like a fringe group. Peace activists have been attacked and lost their jobs, and at least one official at a high level of government has advocated the forceful displacement or slaughter of everyone in Gaza so that Israel can fill the ruins with Jewish people and annex the region.

I consider myself a pragmatist. You can't fight terrorism by creating the perfect conditions for recruitment.

Agreed (on fighting terrorism).

And it would be easier to deal with this issue if we all agreed that Israel is fighting against terrorists. Such honesty could lead to different strategies. Giving false legitimacy to Hamas does no one any good.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Interesting article and insight...


"Abu Saada once served as Yassir Arafat’s personal driver before he converted to Christianity and authored Once an Arafat Man. He was born in al-Breij, a refugee camp in Gaza, and learned in July that three members of his family living in the camp were killed in bombings.


Despite the suffering, and the international outcry, Palestinians in Gaza increasingly recognize Hamas is mostly to blame for the deteriorating situation. They knew Israel would be forced to defend itself against steady rocket launches from Gaza and shut down the Hamas-built tunnels. They also watched as Hamas walked away from multiple cease-fire opportunities while turning Gaza civilians into targets to win international sympathy. "


"Such attacks nonetheless fed international outrage and sent the UN Security Council into emergency session, even as Gaza residents blamed Hamas, said everyone understood Palestinian blood had been shed by Hamas itself. “Nobody can forgive Hamas for what they’re doing,” said a 28-year-old journalist who asked not to be identified for security reasons. “No one can forgive Hamas for butchering Palestinians to get power. Most Gazans hate Hamas with a passion.”

Read entire article here:
WORLD | Toward ?a sustained quiet? | Mindy Belz | Aug. 23, 2014
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Agreed (on fighting terrorism).

And it would be easier to deal with this issue if we all agreed that Israel is fighting against terrorists. Such honesty could lead to different strategies. Giving false legitimacy to Hamas does no one any good.

I truly don't get it. You are demanding something that you already have, apparently hoping that it will change an unrelated attitude.

Of course Israel is fighting against terrorists, albeit elected terrorists. That changes nothing. In fact, that could change nothing, since we knew that from the start.

What am I missing?
 

Alceste

Vagabond
I truly don't get it. You are demanding something that you already have, apparently hoping that it will change an unrelated attitude.

Of course Israel is fighting against terrorists, albeit elected terrorists. That changes nothing. In fact, that could change nothing, since we knew that from the start.

What am I missing?

I agree with you. :) I think perhaps a small proportion of Israel fans are fundamentally incapable of telling the difference between criticism of Israel and support for Hamas.
 

dantech

Well-Known Member
I agree with you. :) I think perhaps a small proportion of Israel fans are fundamentally incapable of telling the difference between criticism of Israel and support for Hamas.

The fact is that we could all tell the difference. However, you and a few others very rarely do one of the two, and when you do, it's done in 2 sentences. On the other hand, you often write multiple paragraphs of how you disagree with Israel and how they are the true terrorists.

So while we don't necessarily think you support Hamas, it's clear that you just disregard them and think that Israel is the one that's causing this evil...

One example:
I forgot who it is I asked about whose death is on Hamas' shoulders, and the answer was "only the ones of the few Israeli deaths..."

Saying something like that completely ignores the fact that Hamas is constantly putting its own civilians in danger, shooting from hospitals, killing their own, using kids for forced labour, spending millions on terrorism rather than on building a civilization, and even provoking Israel in the first place.

You might not support Hamas, but you're certainly not holding them to same standard that you hold Israel.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I truly don't get it. You are demanding something that you already have, apparently hoping that it will change an unrelated attitude.
The problem, of course, is that many who agree that Israel is fighting against 'terrorists' prettify and romanticize these 'terrorists' as freedom fighters. People really need to internalize the history of Gaza as well as the recent news concerning the intentions of Hamas in the West Bank. These are not nice people.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
With the truce due to expire in roughly two and a half hours, this from Haaretz is interesting, particularly …
The paper also quoted a Palestinian source saying the talks are being pursued along two tracks – a political-diplomatic track, including the exchange of dead bodies and release of prisoners, which will be finalized at a later stage, and a humanitarian track, based on the finding of a formula to lift the blockade on Gaza immediately.

Palestinian sources involved in the Cairo talks say that while Fatah and Islamic Jihad are willing to accept the Egyptian draft proposals, Hamas is still reluctant to do so. But these sources say that even within Hamas, there are those – like the Gaza representatives and deputy political bureau chief Moussa Abu Marzouk – who are willing to be more flexible, while a tougher line is being taken by Meshal, who is represented in Cairo by his associate Izat Reshiq.

“There’s no doubt that within that room there are different trends,” one Palestinian source said. “The Palestinian side understands that Israel is in no position to grant Hamas any points, like a seaport or an airport. But it must be said that Israel isn’t particularly eager to come to an agreement with the factions, particularly with Hamas. So the difficulty focuses on the fact that Egypt and Abu Mazen [Abbas] are enthusiastic about reaching an agreement while Israel and Hamas – particularly Hamas abroad – aren’t rushing to advance the process.”

Hamas is well aware that any future agreement will not be with it directly, but with the PA, and that signing any agreement means restoring PA influence in Gaza, particularly at the Gaza border crossings.

Reshiq, who spoke to reporters in Cairo, said Hamas has no objection to the PA’s return to the Gaza Strip, particularly after the establishment of the unity government. He said the group’s objections stem from two things – that the Egyptian draft states that the opening of the crossings would be in coordination between Israel and the PA, which could lead to negotiations that could take years, and the issue of who would supervise the rebuilding of the Strip, since the PA alone can’t take on that kind of responsibility.

Assessments in Gaza and Cairo say Hamas is prepared to allow the rehabilitation framework to be in the PA’s hands, including the contacts and coordination with the donor countries, but it wants to take a major role in the Strip’s management, including involvement in the Gaza security apparatuses.
The last sentence is should be cause for concern on the part of both Israel and the PA.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
I agree with you. :) I think perhaps a small proportion of Israel fans are fundamentally incapable of telling the difference between criticism of Israel and support for Hamas.
There are two sides to this war. -- Hamas and Israel.

You need to pick one.

Hamas is the government that is controlling gaza.

This is similar to the nazis controlling germany.

The war wasn't between the german people and the US, it was between the Hitler government and the US government (and others).
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
You would think that the progressives would be solidy against the arab governments.

The arab governments offer no human rights to their citizens. The women are treated as property. They can be legally beaten for any reason.

Anyone different than them is executed or imprisoned.

It's rather weird how the progressives are on the wrong side- again.
 

RitalinOhD

Heathen Humanist
There are two sides to this war. -- Hamas and Israel.

You need to pick one.

Says who? I'm perfectly content condemning both sides. While I'm all for Israel defending themselves, IMO, they aren't doing nearly enough to eliminate unnecessary civilian casualties.

Criticism of Hamas goes without saying.
 

Mycroft

Ministry of Serendipity
There are two sides to this war. -- Hamas and Israel.

You need to pick one.

Hamas is the government that is controlling gaza.

I have picked a side. I choose the side of human social concern, peace and love. And hope that the Palestinians might find a way to kick Hamas out.


This is similar to the nazis controlling germany.

The dehumanisation of the palestinians through clever use of the word 'hamas' is also a nazi tactic. It's the same clever use of words they used to make people accept the dehumanisation of Jews that led to the holocaust.
 
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