Thief
Rogue Theologian
would the spirit of Satan be a creation of God?
then the creation is greater in spirit than it's Creator?
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Why does it seem that God never intervenes in Human Suffering
- Thread starter Serenity7855
- Start date
then the creation is greater in spirit than it's Creator?
OurCreed
There is no God but Allah
Revelation is a secret of the universe revealed to someone.
A sign is any phenomenon or event or something of some significance which its purpose is to bring a person closer to God.
Signs can be revelation.
Coincidence is not a sign, even though revealed religionists choose to believe that all the time. You pray that your sick child is made well, and when it happens, it isn't the medical treatment and love he received, it was your prayer. Or when you come out of a car accident unharmed, or at least you live, it was God watching over you. You're working too hard to rationalize you're blind faith when God hasn't done a thing--and never has.
You're wrong here because this is not how it works. You're looking at the small picture. If a person prayed to God a specific prayer, for example, he prayed to get exactly $4,567 dollars for his trip next month, and the next day, a stranger donates to his account the exact amount. That would be one evidence that something out there heard his prayer. NOW, if these specific prayers can answered over and over again, then eventually, the person has no reason not to submit to God at that point, they will immediately realize that there is someone out there watching over Him and answering His prayers.
That is exactly why the Qur'an stresses this fact, that if a person does not pray, or refuses to even ask something to the Lord, they will not be opened up to receiving God's signs. Those who ask, they will receive. And this is why you, or anyone else, can never convince me of God's non-existence, because I have had my prayers answered with great accuracy, and not only that, but I was blessed with knowledge of the future of events which came true, things I would never have been able to predict.
When a person's life is riddled with signs like this, it'll be very hard to convince them that there is no God. That's the difference between an atheist, and a theist who truly believes in the creator. The atheist hasn't received anything, no knowledge of the unseen, no acceptance of prayers, no signs, no revelations. That's the reason they won't be believing in any God anytime soon.
That may indeed well be true, but neither of us will know that until the time comes, or we'll know nothing at all.
And the 2nd chapter of the Qur'an, which can be considered like an opening to the book, already speaks of this.
2;1-5
"Alif, Lam, Mim. This is the Book of God, there is no doubt in it; it is a guidance for the righteous. For those who believe in the existence of that which is beyond the reach of perception, who establish Prayer, and spend out of what We have provided them. Who believe in what has been revealed to you and what was revealed before you, and have firm faith in the Hereafter. Such are on true guidance from their Lord; such are the truly successful."
The Qur'an states here that this book is only for those who are righteous. It is a form of guidance. This book is for those people who believe in the existence of things which is beyond their understanding, also known as the ghaib (unseen). We are humans, we don't know everything about this universe we are put in, so it is logical to accept this fact that there are things out there beyond our comprehension and understanding. And we will never know of their existence, unless the knowledge of it was revealed to us somehow.
And the Qur'an confirms that those who establish prayer, and those who spend out of their provisions, these people are on true guidance and will be successful. So you have to be a good person to be given the secrets of the universe. This is not even being religious either. God has revealed His secrets about the universe to many people, scientists, philosophers, etc. God grants His knowledge and infinite wisdom to everyone whom He feels deserves it. Without God's guidance, no one will know the ghaib (unseen).
We know through revelation that there is a life after this one. Not only that, but we know that we already had a life previous to this life here on earth. So this is basically our second life. How do we know we can trust this revelation? It's simple, you pray to the one who sent down the revelation. If they exist, they will respond to you, and if they don't exist and these words were made up by the hands of men, nothing will happen, no miracles, no signs, no nothing. So if you truly care about the truth, it wouldn't hurt to pray.
God is not what people think of Him. He is not an imposing, interfering God. He has feelings and is not an abstract force. People want to do things their way so God hasn't interfered as He respects our wish to be left alone. Also He has been made to feel very unwelcome by humanity when you look at how the Prophets suffer things like exile, torture and crucifixion. Would a loving God feel welcome to come to our earth? Never. Until we make God feel welcome He will just leave us to ourselves to brutalise each other. That's the way we want it.
ThePainefulTruth
Romantic-Cynic
"Satan" is nothing but a name we give to the temptation within us to do evil.
Yes, brutalize each other, often in the name of our religions--Muslims being one of the worst in the modern age. And some prophets ask for their grief because every time they say, "Thus sayeth the Lord", they lie. You say God doesn't interfere but I don't think you actually believe that. As Thomas Jefferson put it, "Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." What God wants to know isn't what we think of It, after all It doesn't show Itself and we've got nothing to show that God even exists. God wants to know how we treat each other, and what we think and do when we on our own. We don't hurt God's feelings, we hurt our own feelings, but it doesn't register until we're forced to look back on our lives without the ability to lie to ourselves. Only then do both we and God know what we really are, and are rewarded with joy, or given the ability to seek refuge in oblivion.
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ThePainefulTruth
Romantic-Cynic
That would instantly negate our free will, at the very least for the one who received the revelation. His test would be invalid.
You're determined to believe, and to put your faith where you've been taught, or simple want, to put it, I can't stop you.
OurCreed
There is no God but Allah
That would instantly negate our free will, at the very least for the one who received the revelation. His test would be invalid.
No it wouldn't. The person accepted/believed in the revelation out of their own will. And if there were certain commandments within the revelations, the person would be obeying them with their free will. There have been many examples of people who have received revelations but disobeyed them.
Pharaoh was given many signs as the Qur'an states, and he rejected all of them except the final one.
You're determined to believe, and to put your faith where you've been taught, or simple want, to put it, I can't stop you.
I've been taught to use my head. If you want to believe the universe was created by nothing, no intelligence, and we humans were evolved without any purpose, go ahead. I however do not believe that. I believe we evolved for a purpose, and that is why we are different than the other creatures that roam the earth.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
so...there is no one in direct disobedience to God and willing to plant a stone in your path as well?
ThePainefulTruth
Romantic-Cynic
All fabrication and legend. God made the universe to operate under rational natural law so the we would have a rational stage to me rational decisions using our free will. The catch is, free will allows us to choose a lie. Aye, there's the rub.
I merely don't know, and nobody's been able to come close to showing me they know either.
Right, because we don't know that God exists. But our self-awareness makes us realize we hurt other people when we violate their rights the same as they do to us when they violate ours.
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
After a fashion, yes. Do we not all make judgment calls as to whether or not we follow ANYTHING? Many times it's "nothing personal", we've just found that particular thing does not suit our tastes. For instance, I might go to a comic convention - but I wouldn't go dressing up as my favorite character. I have nothing against those who do so... it's just not for me. And God himself (provided He exists) supposedly gave each and every one of us the propensity to make those sorts of decisions and discernments. Even the really big ones. Should He be surprised that some of us don't fall on His side?
Point being - yes I can decide where my loyalties lie. Even God gave me the right to do so - simply by giving me the ability to do so. Which ultimately means He also put me in the position to judge.
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OurCreed
There is no God but Allah
All fabrication and legend.
Whether you believe it or not, the idea still applies. Pharaoh rejected the signs, so that proves that revelation does not negate free will.
I merely don't know, and nobody's been able to come close to showing me they know either.
Exactly, nobody knows until they are inspired by God Himself. But only those people who have an open heart and mind, those who are pure, they will be inspired. Not those who are arrogant and closed minded. The latter folks will never be given any sign as long as they live. The Qur'an tells us.
7;96
Had the people of those communities believed and turned righteous, we would have showered them with blessings from the heaven and the earth. Since they decided to disbelieve, we punished them for what they earned.
Once people out of their free will choose to not believe, they won't get the blessings. So an easy way to know if there is a God or not, is to compare the state of a person who fully believes there is a God, versus a person who completely rejects the idea of God. The state of the believer will be better, if they are true believers. As a matter of fact, you can also do a test. Any two or more people who want to test the existence of God can do that. You need to have one person who believes versus one person who does not believe. The believer will pray that whoever is on the side of truth, bless them and give them a long life, and humiliate and destroy the one who is lying and is not on the side of truth. If both parties agree to these terms, the final result should determine who is right, and by the time it does, it will be obvious. Since atheists don't believe in God, they will simply have to agree to the terms, and if the atheist is right, nothing will happen to them. But if the believer is right, then something will happen.
This doesn't even have to be a duel, it can simply be asking for a sign. The believer can pray for a certain sign to occur through God, and all the atheist has to do is accept that if it happens, they will have to submit with no exceptions. If the sign does not happen, then the atheist is pardoned, but if it does happen, then they have no option accept to believe in God as their king and ruler.
The purpose of all of this is to simply show the existence of God to a person who is in complete denial. The one whom is truthful will always succeed and win over the one who is not truthful, because God always supports the truth.
ThePainefulTruth
Romantic-Cynic
You're making your case with a myth? And even if it was true, it would merely show that we don't have free will--but then why bother with Creation.
D'you ever wonder about the Exodus? All those miracles, including God accompanying them in a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night (although later on it was just and angel in the pillar). But the minute Moses turns his back, they're making a golden calf--with the pillar still there!!! Could the wonder and power of all those miracles have ever worn off, much less so quickly?
And then what about the big one, the parting of the Red Sea "by a strong east wind". Any idea how strong that wind would have to have been, not only part the sea but to make a wall of water on their left and on their right? It would have blown them right back into Pharaoh's lap, camels and all, in pieces.
Sort of like the story of Jonah and the whale, though it was called a big fish, and we don't know which is was because they didn't know that whales weren't fish. Just sayin'.
psychoslice
Veteran Member
Its easy, there isn't no God, how many brain cells do we need to realize that ?.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
it takes no brains at all to make denial
it takes sooooo much more to form belief
all you can do is think about it
It's taking scientists all the combined intelligence they have just to discover the tiniest things about the universe. The universe didn't create itself. Intelligent life cannot evolve from non intelligence. Even the laws of physics which govern our universe have deep mathematical formulas, a sign of untold intelligence behind them.
psychoslice
Veteran Member
Ha, that's funny.
psychoslice
Veteran Member
The whole cosmos is one whole intelligence, not in the sense that we call intelligence, its no a personal being out there doing all the work, its the whole cosmos doing the work and we are that cosmos for all is one.
Examine the tiniest thing such as a small leaf or an ant under a microscope and look at the order and complex organisation involved. There is so much intelligence that we are surrounded by and within us that we'd have to be in complete denial to say there isn't a God.
Let's look at this dispassionately. What's the point in believing in a God IF there is one. We humans so far have had a rough history of bloodshed and violence. We haven't had it easy. Don't we want things to improve? Of course we do. So what's gone wrong? Basically my take is that we've followed the ideas of our best thinkers and politicians but despite this our world is full of violence, crime, drug addiction and so on. Now, for arguments sake, if there was a Perfect Being Who was All Knowing and knew exactly how to get us out of our predicaments and that His ideas and solutions would definitely work, wouldn't we want this knowledge? If it would really work for us? Of course we would.
The obstacle for us then is in accepting that there IS such a Being and from time to time and age to age He sends Messengers or Teachers or Messiahs to us to guide us out of the predicaments we create for ourselves out of His compassion for us. While we've ignore these Teachers, has our world improved? Have we achieved happiness through materialism and capitalism? No, of course not. We are in a mess. And the One Person Who's advise could get us out of the mess we're in we claim doesn't exist.
We've tried our ways. We've failed to create a harmonious peaceful world after 1,000's of years of civilisation. So isn't it about time we gave an infallible All Knowing Being and His ideas a chance and see if they work if we are really sincere? If they don't work we can always go back to the war and drug industries. But to just say God doesn't exists when He has sent so many Messengers Who alone and despite opposition proved that they could change our world is untrue.
Read the Teachings of Baha'u'llah and you cannot find in all the world's literature anyone Who has such an insight into the remedies required for our age. All His Teachings center around the unity of mankind and the oneness of all people and isn't that needed today more than ever? God has His finger on the pulse of mankind and knows the remedy for all our ills and today's remedy is world unity.
The obstacle for us then is in accepting that there IS such a Being and from time to time and age to age He sends Messengers or Teachers or Messiahs to us to guide us out of the predicaments we create for ourselves out of His compassion for us. While we've ignore these Teachers, has our world improved? Have we achieved happiness through materialism and capitalism? No, of course not. We are in a mess. And the One Person Who's advise could get us out of the mess we're in we claim doesn't exist.
We've tried our ways. We've failed to create a harmonious peaceful world after 1,000's of years of civilisation. So isn't it about time we gave an infallible All Knowing Being and His ideas a chance and see if they work if we are really sincere? If they don't work we can always go back to the war and drug industries. But to just say God doesn't exists when He has sent so many Messengers Who alone and despite opposition proved that they could change our world is untrue.
Read the Teachings of Baha'u'llah and you cannot find in all the world's literature anyone Who has such an insight into the remedies required for our age. All His Teachings center around the unity of mankind and the oneness of all people and isn't that needed today more than ever? God has His finger on the pulse of mankind and knows the remedy for all our ills and today's remedy is world unity.
Serenity7855
Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
I am sure that you must know this fact that there are people that walk the same earth as you and I who wear the title of being super rich. Not multi millionaires but multi billionaires. Just one of these lovely people could feed every destitute child who is on the verge of losing their lives to disease and malnutrition and still remain super rich. Why don't they? God is waiting for mankind to show some empathy and compassion by these animals. He is waiting to see if we can pass the trails and tribulations that we have to endure, to see if we love Him and our fellow man. I fear that most of us will fail miserably.
You do not have to apologise for, or justify, your beliefs. If what you believe in makes you happy, and creates a better person, then you are among those offering a hand down to those who are struggling to climb that mountain that we all have to climb. There will be no Christians in heaven, or any other religious beliefs because they will be all fulfilled. I am a Christian and probably will be for the rest of my days, however, I could just as easily be a Muslim or a Jehovah Witness, who are equally as pious and who probably do far more than us in living a righteous existence. In fact, much of what I believe is akin to Pantheist.
I am glad that you recognize that things are getting worse because there are those, on here, who are enthralled with science,
and who have gone with the flow of immortality, who think that things are wonderful on earth right now. Those starving children do not think that things are getting better, that is for sure.
ThePainefulTruth
Romantic-Cynic
That's what people say just before they load it up with every emotion in the book.
The odds for or against God are non-existent either way. The only thing left, then, is hope.
Change those who we've followed to those who are master power mongers who excel at manipulating our emotions, especially fear--and I'm with you. And it's the halls of churches and government buildings they've always haunted, ever since the stone age.
Or won't intervene. THE God, if there is one, won't interfere since it would negate our free will, the ostensible purpose for the universe in the first place. You're arguing against the easy target, revealed religion.
Self-appointed messengers. Capitalism has barely been tried, and with one hand tied behind it's back and/or milked by government officials at that. You're slick, I'll give you that. But I'd have to believe in the Devil to think that stench of sulfur was anything but natural. Looks like they've got a new breed of political operatives out here.